T205 - The Elusive Gold Gilded Set

[brianp-beme]

***See post #66 for the final list***

Brian L. (familytoad on here) was the individual who, many years ago, sparked the creation of the E90-1 Kraken thread. Here recently on that thread he threw down a challenge if there was another vintage set that could benefit from the same weighted point scale as seen with the Kraken.

I figured that for a set to qualify for this treatment, it had to be substantial in set size, and offer different levels of scarce/popular cards, just like the E90-1 set does. A few sets that came to mind that fit this bill were the E121 American Caramel Series of 80 set, E254 Colgan's Chips, and the T207 Brown Border tobacco set. However, I believe that these sets have relatively few collectors pursuing them, and I think a thread on any of these sets would suffer from cobweb accumulation. The one set that seemed to offer both size and an assortment of scarce cards AND one that is commonly collected, along the lines of the E90-1 set (though probably even more popular), is the T205 Gold Border set. Ah yes, the T205 set...the Elusive Gold Standard.

So I have come up with a tentative weighting for the cards in the master 221 subject card set. Here is what I have come up with (the Gold Standard value is in parenthesis):

Adkins, Doc (2)

Baker, Home Run (2)

Barger, Cy - partial B on cap (2)

Batch, Emil (2)

Bender, Chief (2)

Bresnahan, Roger - mouth open (3)

Brown, Mordecai (2)

Cady, Hick (2)

Chance, Frank (2)

Chase, Hal - only left ear shows (2)

Cicotte, Eddie (2)

Cobb, Ty (12)

Collins, Eddie - mouth closed (2)

Collins, Eddie - mouth open (3)

Collins, Jimmy (3)

Dahlen, Bill (2)

Donohue, Jiggs (2)

Dunn, Jack (2)

Evers, Johnny (2)

Fisher, Ray (2)

Frick, James (2)

Graham, Peaches - Cubs (2)

Grant, Ed (2)

Gray, Dolly - stats on back (3)

Hanford, Charles (2)

Harmon, Robert - only left ear shows (2)

Hoblitzell, Dick - no stats on back (15)

Hoblitzell, Dick - name incorrect/no Cin. After 1908 (2)

Hoblitzell, Dick - name correct/no Cin. After 1908 (2)

Johnson, Walter (5)

Joss, Addie (8)

Karger, Ed (2)

Kleinow, Red (2)

Latham, Arlie - W.A. Latham on back (2)

Lee, Wyatt (2)

Leifield, Lefty - A.P. Leifield on front (2)

Mathewson, Christy (5)

Mathewson, Christy - Cycle Back, incorrect stats (10)

McAllister, Sport (2)

Merritt, George (2)

Moran, Pat - stray line of type (4)

Nee, John (2)

Phelan, James (2)

Raymond, Bugs (2)

Rowan, John (2)

Scanlan, Doc (2)

Shean, David (2)

Speaker, Tris (4)

Suggs, George (2)

Sweeney, Jeff (2)

Tinker, Joe (2)

Turner, Terry (2)

Vaughn, Hippo (2)

Wagner, Heinie (2)

Wallace, Bobby - no cap - 1 line of 1910 stats (4)

Wallace, Bobby - no cap/2 lines of 1910 stats (3)

Walsh, Ed (3)

Wheat, Zack (2)

White, Kirb (2)

Wilhelm, Kaiser - suffe ed in 18th line of bio (3)

Wilhelm, Kaiser - suffered in 18th line of bio (8)

Wiltse, Hooks - only right ear shows (2)

Young, Cy (6)


There are 221 cards in the master T205 set, and thus all the other 158 cards not listed in the above would have an Elusive Gold Standard value of 1. Thus adding the values of all 221 together the ultimate EGS value for a T205 collection would be 350.

I have tried to weigh the cards based upon their scarcity, while taking into account their popularity (for example Hoblitzell - no stats may be by far the toughest card in the T205 set to come by, but Cobb is one that a wider range of collectors clamor for, and thus Ty's relatively high EGS value in comparison to Hoblitzell's).

Let me know if I have left any card out, shouldn't have included something, a card should have a higher/lower value, my math doesn't add up, or even if you think I am way off base, perhaps you think I am a complete gold bordered nutcase, etc., and I will consider making adjustments to the above. I felt like I had a more intuitive feel for the E90-1 set values than I do with the T205 set, but the Kraken benefited from a fairly substantial amount of input from others, so I imagine this T205 endeavor could end up being just such a collaborative effort. Once it seems like everything is cemented down, I will start up a separate thread, the Elusive Gold Standard thread, that I will maintain to log folks progress on the set.

Brian

[nebboy]

Thanks for putting this together. I like your lists and points system. I will do some research and give feedback. Thanks again

[brianp-beme]

Thanks John. I have mentioned in the past that I have a sneaky suspicion that my interest in this hobby lies in the fact that it allows me to create various lists.

To make it easier for some, here are the 'Special' T205 cards grouped by their EGS value. The ML abbreviation stands for Minor League card, while the SP abbreviation stands for cards considered Short Prints.


Cards with EGS value of 2:

Adkins, Doc ML

Baker, Home Run

Barger, Cy - partial B on cap

Batch, Emil ML

Bender, Chief

Brown, Mordecai

Cady, Hick ML

Chance, Frank

Chase, Hal - only left ear shows

Cicotte, Eddie

Collins, Eddie - mouth closed

Dahlen, Bill SP

Donohue, Jiggs SP

Dunn, Jack ML

Evers, Johnny

Fisher, Ray SP

Frick, James ML

Graham, Peaches - Cubs

Grant, Ed SP

Hanford, Charles ML

Harmon, Robert - only left ear shows

Hoblitzell, Dick - name incorrect/no Cin. After 1908

Hoblitzell, Dick - name correct/no Cin. After 1908

Karger, Ed SP

Kleinow, Red SP

Latham, Arlie - W.A. Latham on back

Lee, Wyatt ML

Leifield, Lefty - A.P. Leifield on front

McAllister, Sport ML

Merritt, George ML

Nee, John ML

Phelan, James ML

Raymond, Bugs SP

Rowan, John SP

Scanlan, Doc SP

Shean, David - Cubs

Suggs, George SP

Sweeney, Jeff SP

Tinker, Joe

Turner, Terry SP

Vaughn, Hippo SP

Wagner, Heinie SP

Wheat, Zack

White, Kirb SP

Wiltse, Hooks - only right ear shows


Cards with EGS value of 3:

Bresnahan, Roger - mouth open

Collins, Eddie - mouth open

Collins, Jimmy ML

Gray, Dolly - stats on back

Wallace, Bobby - no cap/2 lines of 1910 stats

Walsh, Ed SP

Wilhelm, Kaiser - suffe ed in 18th line of bio SP


Cards with EGS value of 4 or higher (ESG value in parenthesis):

Cobb, Ty (12)

Hoblitzell, Dick - no stats on back (15)

Johnson, Walter (5)

Joss, Addie SP (8)

Mathewson, Christy (5)

Mathewson, Christy - Cycle Back, incorrect stats (10)

Moran, Pat - stray line of type (4)

Speaker, Tris (4)

Wallace, Bobby - no cap - 1 line of 1910 stats (4)

Wilhelm, Kaiser - suffered in 18th line of bio (8)

Young, Cy (6)


Brian

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I would rate Moran Stray line higher, but that's nit picking.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I would rate Moran Stray line higher, but that's nit picking.

This is just the sort of nit picking I appreciate. Consider Moran Stray Line to be under consideration.

Brian

[Yoda]

Any credit for the more elusive backs? For example, I hold a Cobb with an AB reverse, which must be rarer than one with a Hassan back.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Any credit for the more elusive backs? For example, I hold a Cobb with an AB reverse, which must be rarer than one with a Hassan back.

Good question. For the purposes of the future thread, the Elusive Gold Standard value for each card will be without consideration of its backside. Though I wouldn't be adverse if anyone shared that information on a post.

Brian

[rats60]

I would move up
Bresnahan Open
Daubert
Fisher
Raymond
Turner

1 point each. I know that throws the Math off, but you could also go up to 400 points and add more value to some of the tougher cards such as Moran, Gray, Wilhelm suffe ed, Wallace 1 line, Matty 1 loss and especially Hoblitzell no stats.

I have been collecting this set since 1988 and to me those are tougher than the other cards valued at the same number of points. Overall though, a very good list. Are we going to have a gold border thread to add to the Monster and Kraken?

[ronniehatesjazz]

Love the concept but I would argue for more of a bell curve distribution on the values... lot of commons have the same value of stars and SPs in your rankings. SPs are what make this set IMO and although your correct that Cobb should be right up there with Hobby, I also think the tougher SPs should be around Matty (I would argue he would be closer to a 6 or 7 also), and the uber difficult variations just trailing behind Cobb. I would also put the Matty Cycle back around Cobb.

Regardless, thanks for putting this thread together!

[familytoad]

Oooh!
While BP likes to build lists, I like to count cards via Excel Abacus.
So I’m going to be building a Gold Standard Calculator for this brilliant idea.
Brilliant !

Let me know if you want a copy of the GSC.

For my own calculator, once I build it, the value probably won’t increase much.
I finished the basic set years ago and I have the various Variations that I could find or afford. Perhaps this might prompt me to get off my wallet and get the Matty 37-1 someday!

Thank you BP for your willingness to drag us collectors across another finish line!

[familytoad]

Elusive Golden Goldies Standard or EGGS.

I’ll show myself out…

[TigerMike]

I would probably have Cobb equal to Matty Cycle, given the difficulty of Matty. Pick up the 2 from Cobb and give one to Moran stray and the other to Walsh or Bresnahan open. As was stated earlier though, just nit picking here. Great effort on this.

[Tom S.]

Brian,

Nice list and rankings, but you forgot about Hugh Duffy.

[orioles70]

A quick count looks like you have 21 of the 30 Hall of Famer cards (there are 25 different Hall of Fame players plus a variation of Bresnahan, Collins, Mathewson and 2 of Wallace) in the set with a value of 2 or more...but that would leave 9 Hall of Famer cards with a value of 1...I would at least rank any of the Hall of Famers in the set above the assigned typical common card value of 1

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[brianp-beme]

All good input people. I am definitely considering restructuring the points to include all the HOF players. I did not do so with the E90-1 Kraken, partially as a nod to Frank's T206 Monster thread, where all but 4 cards are worth 1 point, but I wanted to make sure that a certain amount of the varying levels of difficulty within that set were at least acknowledged. I don't want to go to the extent of assigning half points, but would like to reasonably reflect the various levels within the T205, and it seems that people would like to see it structured in a more thorough fashion.

So keep your suggestions coming, and after another few days I will come up with modified values, and then see what people think.

A general question for those out there...when I make the minimum HOF card value 2, would the Minor Leaguers (not including Jimmy Collins) stay at their current 2 value? To me it seems like the answer would be yes.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

I decided to jump the gun and get a little productive, and based upon all the great suggestions I have received, and several that I increased from a '1' value on my own, I have included below a proposed updated list. I have italicized the cards that have changed in value. The new Elusive Gold Standard total comes to 389.

I would like to get the total to 400. Let me know if I missed any 1 point value cards that you think should be boosted, as well as any other higher value cards that need, well, higher values. But also tell me if I went too far, and if any need to get smacked down.

And a question for rats60...did you mean Dahlen instead of Daubert? I sometimes get these two Brooklyn 'Da' players mixed in my head. I have a similar problem with a couple of pitchers too, Rucker and Reulbach. And don't get me started on Doolan and Dooin.

Brian


Cards with EGS value of 2:

Adkins, Doc ML

Barger, Cy - partial B on cap

Batch, Emil ML

Bender, Chief

Bresnahan - mouth closed

Brown, Mordecai

Cady, Hick ML

Chance, Frank

Chase - border on shirt

Chase - no border on shirt

Clarke, Fred

Collins, Eddie - mouth closed

Daubert, Jake

Donohue, Jiggs SP

Dougherty - red sock

Dougherty - white sock

Duffy, Hugh

Dunn, Jack ML

Evers, Johnny

Ford, Russ - white cap

Frick, James ML

Graham, Peaches - Cubs

Grant, Ed SP

Gray, Dolly - no stats

Griffith, Clarke

Hanford, Charles ML

Harmon, Robert - only left ear shows

Hoblitzell, Dick - name incorrect/no Cin. After 1908

Hoblitzell, Dick - name correct/no Cin. After 1908

Huggins, Miller

Jennings, Hugh

Karger, Ed SP

Kleinow, Red SP

Latham, Arlie - W.A. Latham on back

Lee, Wyatt ML

Leifield, Lefty - A.P. Leifield on front

Marquard, Rube

McAllister, Sport ML

McGraw, John

Merritt, George ML

Nee, John ML

Phelan, James ML

Rowan, John SP

Scanlan, Doc SP

Shean, David - Cubs

Suggs, George SP

Sweeney, Jeff SP

Tinker, Joe

Vaughn, Hippo SP

Wagner, Heinie SP

Wallace, Bobby - with cap

Wheat, Zack

White, Kirb SP

Wiltse, Hooks - only right ear shows


Cards with EGS value of 3:

Baker, Frank

Chase, Hal - only left ear shows

Cicotte, Eddie

Collins, Eddie - mouth open

Collins, Jimmy ML

Dahlen, Bill SP

Fisher, Ray SP

Raymond, Bugs SP

Turner, Terry SP

Wallace, Bobby - no cap/2 lines of 1910 stats


Cards with EGS value of 4:

Bresnahan, Roger - mouth open

Gray, Dolly - stats on back

Speaker, Tris

Walsh, Ed SP

Wilhelm, Kaiser - suffe ed in 18th line of bio SP


Cards with value of 5 or more (EGS in parenthesis):

Cobb, Ty (12)

Hoblitzell, Dick - no stats on back (20)

Johnson, Walter (6)

Joss, Addie SP (8)

Mathewson, Christy (6)

Mathewson, Christy - Cycle Back, incorrect stats (12)

Moran, Pat - stray line of type (5)

Wallace, Bobby - no cap - 1 line of 1910 stats (5)

Wilhelm, Kaiser - suffered in 18th line of bio (8)

Young, Cy (7)

[familytoad]

If you added a single eggs point to the last 15 cards you’d have the round 400 number.
I think with this set the tougher 15 that you have are truly worth another bump.

The 1 pointers are “over easy” and the others are “hard” (boiled)”
But I’ve been accused of being “scrambled “ in the past.

[rats60]

Brian,

I meant Daubert. Both Dahlen and Daubert are tough cards and deserve to be worth more than 1 point. Cy Young is also tougher than WaJo and Matty and should be worth more, as you originally had them. I would agree with Family Toad to add more points to the highest value cards, except WaJo and Matty (regular).

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by familytoad

If you added a single eggs point to the last 15 cards you’d have the round 400 number.
I think with this set the tougher 15 that you have are truly worth another bump.

The 1 pointers are “over easy” and the others are “hard” (boiled)”
But I’ve been accused of being “scrambled “ in the past.

Brian, I have to figure out an acceptable (to my brain) 'G' word to make your 'EGGS' scenario work. Give me a couple of minutes/hours/days/weeks.

And I like your idea of pumping up the volume on the tougher EG(G)S cards. I would definitely like to solicit more suggestions on the other cards on the list if any deserve a little tweaking, before tacking on points to the toughies.

Originally Posted by rats60

Brian,

I meant Daubert. Both Dahlen and Daubert are tough cards and deserve to be worth more than 1 point. Cy Young is also tougher than WaJo and Matty and should be worth more, as you originally had them. I would agree with Family Toad to add more points to the highest value cards, except WaJo and Matty (regular).

Thanks rats60, I never realized that Daubert was tougher than a regular T205 card...I just thought there was more demand because of his popularity/this being one of his earliest cards. I will definitely boost the boy right now. And I will award Cy Young with an extra point. If anyone deserves an extra point it is him. In fact I might just name the act of giving a card an extra EG(G)S point the Cy Young Award.

Keep the flow flowing folks.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Under an hour. The Elusive Gold Gilded Standard.

Brian

[familytoad]

Kraken me up!
Wait , am I in the wrong thread?

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by familytoad

Kraken me up!
Wait , am I in the wrong thread?

No you are not, but nary a Land Monster or Sea Monster to be seen here. What you probably didn't realize is that the name has slightly shifted to the Elusive Gold Gilded Set. Still the EGGS you and the rest of the collecting world have come to love, but now just better. Perhaps its slogan can be "The Elusive Gold Gilded Set - The Gold Standard of Tobacco Cards"

Brian

[Yoda]

I love everything about the T205 set, always have, but I wish, like many, that the set included more top shelf HOF'ers, such as Larry Lajoie

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Yoda

I love everything about the T205 set, always have, but I wish, like many, that the set included more top shelf HOF'ers, such as Larry Lajoie

I agree. Crawford would have been another nice addition, as well as the two supposed anti-tobacconites, Plank and Wagner.

Brian

[familytoad]

BP, I'm looking for your sanity check on a couple of the rankings.

I don't see Russ Ford "light cap" and he's been known to be tougher in white than in black. Are you going with one point per pose?

Also, Otis Crandall has two variations, one with T crossed. Again, not a huge premium is noted, but something to consider. Are you counting one egg per variation?

And the biggest question I have...do you show 221 cards in sum?
If so, by adding the 15 pts to the last 15 tougher cards I get 403. Which is your latest version, post #16?

I've probably done something inaccurately. It's kinda my specialty.

I'll email you the calculator if you would like (and the offer goes the same to other EGG heads or Sanity Checkers) Just PM me or email me at Familytoad at comcast dot net.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by familytoad

BP, I'm looking for your sanity check on a couple of the rankings.

I don't see Russ Ford "light cap" and he's been known to be tougher in white than in black. Are you going with one point per pose?

Also, Otis Crandall has two variations, one with T crossed. Again, not a huge premium is noted, but something to consider. Are you counting one egg per variation?

And the biggest question I have...do you show 221 cards in sum?
If so, by adding the 15 pts to the last 15 tougher cards I get 403. Which is your latest version, post #16?

I've probably done something inaccurately. It's kinda my specialty.

I'll email you the calculator if you would like (and the offer goes the same to other EGG heads or Sanity Checkers) Just PM me or email me at Familytoad at comcast dot net.

Thanks for questioning my sanity Brian. It doesn't get questioned often enough. I did intend to add the Ford - white cap to the 2 point list, and it appears I failed to get it on there. I am glad you went through the list with a squiggle tooth comb (aka British comb). So I will change that card to two EGGS value.

I intentionally left both Crandall's at the one point level, because I don't remember either version given a premium or that it was noted that one was tougher than the other. If someone out there has an opinion otherwise, let us know.

I will check my math after upping the Ford card, and will update the list located on post # 16

Brian

[brianp-beme]

I have updated the point total seen in post #16 to 389, which was the result of increasing the Ford - white cap by 1 point, and my count being off by 1. Still holding off making final changes to reach 400 until allowing some more time for input from other Golden Girdle fans.

Brian

[orioles70]

Brian

I like the 400 point system for the T205 set because most of the different backs (7 of the 11) advertise 400 designs...once you are satisfied with the 400 points system maybe you can add extra inning runs (points) for the tougher backs.

John

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[jsfriedm]

I'm curious as to why the Addie Joss is ranked so much higher than the Ed Walsh. Both short prints (PSA pop report has 136 Josses and 162 Walshes), both HOF pitchers with short careers, top two all-time in career ERA. There are 29 Walshes in PSA 5 or higher, 27 Josses. Why the big gap?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by jsfriedm

I'm curious as to why the Addie Joss is ranked so much higher than the Ed Walsh. Both short prints (PSA pop report has 136 Josses and 162 Walshes), both HOF pitchers with short careers, top two all-time in career ERA. There are 29 Walshes in PSA 5 or higher, 27 Josses. Why the big gap?

Overall, I think Joss is probably more collected because of his story...
.

[riggs336]

I haven't looked at the graded populations so this is just from my experience with the set. Also I have no input on how many points a given card should have. So here are my amorphous "feelings":

Easier than current point value: Bresnahan mouth open, Wilhelm suffe ed.
Harder than current point value: J. Collins, Gray stats, Walsh, Joss, Matty Cycle, Moran stray line, Wallace one line, Wilhelm suffered.

Don't worry about hurting my feelings, it didn't bother any of my exes.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by jsfriedm

I'm curious as to why the Addie Joss is ranked so much higher than the Ed Walsh. Both short prints (PSA pop report has 136 Josses and 162 Walshes), both HOF pitchers with short careers, top two all-time in career ERA. There are 29 Walshes in PSA 5 or higher, 27 Josses. Why the big gap?

Bresnahan is tougher than either, so if you move up Walsh, you need to add more points to Bresnahan too. The difference may be realitively small, but it is significant. Also, like Leon said, his story is more compelling and it is a memorial card, I believe the first one. Joss died in the prime of his career and we don't know how great he would have been.

I could even see reducing Matty. He is much easier than the other Hofers worth more than 2 points with 780 graded. Compare that to 368 of WaJo, currently the same value.

[jsfriedm]

Originally Posted by rats60

Bresnahan is tougher than either, so if you move up Walsh, you need to add more points to Bresnahan too. The difference may be realitively small, but it is significant. Also, like Leon said, his story is more compelling and it is a memorial card, I believe the first one. Joss died in the prime of his career and we don't know how great he would have been.

I could even see reducing Matty. He is much easier than the other Hofers worth more than 2 points with 780 graded. Compare that to 368 of WaJo, currently the same value.

I would agree with you on WaJo/Matty. Johnson should be more in line with Cy Young rather than Mathewson. I wonder about the Joss story. Injuries had likely ended his effectiveness before he fell ill in 1911. Meanwhile, Walsh was the last to win 40 games.

[brianp-beme]

Thanks to your input, I have adjusted the following cards below that are bold and italicized (boy, I am really getting extra fancy). I believe this comes out to 400. Pipe up if you think I have been too aggressive, or perhaps completely ignored your suggestions.

I also like the 400 total tie-in to the backs as mentioned by orioles70. What do people think about his idea of extra credit for the backs? I am a front guy so backs values are a little foreign to me, and I would need help in formulating their values. I would assume all Sweet Caporal and Piedmont (except factory 42) would be Zero value, and go up from there (perhaps Polar Bear a value of 1?, etc.). If I did add this, this back value would be separately identified by a slash. For example, if someone had an Eggs Value of 205, and their backs for these cards added up to 72, it could be identified on the EGGS list as 205/72. If collectors did not want to participate in the backs portion, that same EGGS value would just be shown as 205. I would not want the backs to boost the EGGS value, but perhaps it would be fun to note this as well...let me know what you think.

Brian



Cards with EGS value of 2:

Adkins, Doc ML

Barger, Cy - partial B on cap

Batch, Emil ML

Bender, Chief

Bresnahan - mouth closed

Brown, Mordecai

Cady, Hick ML

Chance, Frank

Chase - border on shirt

Chase - no border on shirt

Clarke, Fred

Collins, Eddie - mouth closed

Daubert, Jake

Donohue, Jiggs SP

Dougherty - red sock

Dougherty - white sock

Duffy, Hugh

Dunn, Jack ML

Ford, Russ - white cap

Frick, James ML

Graham, Peaches - Cubs

Grant, Ed SP

Gray, Dolly - no stats

Griffith, Clarke

Hanford, Charles ML

Harmon, Robert - only left ear shows

Hoblitzell, Dick - name incorrect/no Cin. After 1908

Hoblitzell, Dick - name correct/no Cin. After 1908

Huggins, Miller

Jennings, Hugh

Karger, Ed SP

Kleinow, Red SP

Latham, Arlie - W.A. Latham on back

Lee, Wyatt ML

Leifield, Lefty - A.P. Leifield on front

Marquard, Rube

McAllister, Sport ML

McGraw, John

Merritt, George ML

Nee, John ML

Phelan, James ML

Rowan, John SP

Scanlan, Doc SP

Shean, David - Cubs

Suggs, George SP

Sweeney, Jeff SP

Tinker, Joe

Vaughn, Hippo SP

Wagner, Heinie SP

Wallace, Bobby - with cap

Wheat, Zack

White, Kirb SP

Wiltse, Hooks - only right ear shows


Cards with EGS value of 3:

Baker, Frank

Chase, Hal - only left ear shows

Cicotte, Eddie

Collins, Eddie - mouth open

Dahlen, Bill SP

Evers, Johnny

Fisher, Ray SP

Raymond, Bugs SP

Turner, Terry SP

Wallace, Bobby - no cap/2 lines of 1910 stats


Cards with value of 4 or more (EGS in parenthesis):

Bresnahan, Roger - mouth open (5)

Cobb, Ty (12)

Collins, Jimmy ML (4)

Gray, Dolly - stats on back (4)

Hoblitzell, Dick - no stats on back (20)

Johnson, Walter (7)

Joss, Addie SP (8)

Mathewson, Christy (6)

Mathewson, Christy - Cycle Back, incorrect stats (15)

Moran, Pat - stray line of type (5)

Speaker, Tris (4)

Wallace, Bobby - no cap - 1 line of 1910 stats (6)

Walsh, Ed SP (4)

Wilhelm, Kaiser - suffe ed in 18th line of bio SP (4)

Wilhelm, Kaiser - suffered in 18th line of bio (10)

Young, Cy (8)

[riggs336]

You are a rare genius. Quit tinkering (and evering and chancing) and let's get the EGGS in the basket.

[Cozumeleno]

Brian, you know I love these sorts of posts. Frankly, I wouldn't worry about the backs. You'd be getting way into the weeds at that point. Yes, the rare ones are collected/desirable. But I'd keep it short/simple like the E90-1 and Frank's T206 thread.

Hope you're well -- and just my two cents.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by riggs336

You are a rare genius. Quit tinkering (and evering and chancing) and let's get the EGGS in the basket.

I consider myself the Harry Steinfeldt of Tinker to Evers to Chance fame. And I am thinking the basket full of EGGS is pretty close to having some ham, cheese and onions added to create a tasty new omelette thread.

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

Brian, you know I love these sorts of posts. Frankly, I wouldn't worry about the backs. You'd be getting way into the weeds at that point. Yes, the rare ones are collected/desirable. But I'd keep it short/simple like the E90-1 and Frank's T206 thread.

Hope you're well -- and just my two cents.

Thanks Anson, you may have just knocked some sense back into my head, because I never really wanted backs to be considered. A KISS (keep it simple, stupid) is probably the best affectionate path to take on this one. From now onward, for the purposes of the highly touted upcoming thread, everyone should pretend that all T205 cards have blank backs.

In case you have never checked out Anson's site, https://prewarcards.com/ , it has terrific articles and checklists about vintage baseball cards as well as covering a wide spectrum of the non-baseball card collecting world.

Brian

[Yoda]

Brian, you are on a roll. I am in total agreement with your point weighing but have found in my own experience that Johnny Evers seems to be a tough find. When you see his card up for auction, it always seems to fetch more than comparative other T205 Hof'ers.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Brian, you are on a roll. I am in total agreement with your point weighing but have found in my own experience that Johnny Evers seems to be a tough find. When you see his card up for auction, it always seems to fetch more than comparative other T205 Hof'ers.

I have noticed that Evers seems more popular/valuable than his other Cub poem friends. I had actually considered making the card a 3 pointer, so I am glad you posted. His card is definitely the most attractive, in my opinion, of the three. So I have knocked down Moran - stray line of type a point to accommodate Evers rise.

Brian

[tiger8mush]

Would it be easier to sort the 221 subjects in order according to avg price in VG condition and assign a point system that way? Price generally takes into account both demand and rarity.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

Would it be easier to sort the 221 subjects in order according to avg price in VG condition and assign a point system that way? Price generally takes into account both demand and rarity.

Probably, but I guess I am one of those who like to make a molehill out of an anthill.

Brian

[nebboy]

Like what happening with point valuations.
Only ones I would add to consideration for increasing a point to is
Graham, Peaches - Cubs
Shean, David - Cubs
They don't come up much as other (2s) and most of the time demand is strong.

[T205 GB]

Great thread. Love it.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by nebboy

Like what happening with point valuations.
Only ones I would add to consideration for increasing a point to is
Graham, Peaches - Cubs
Shean, David - Cubs
They don't come up much as other (2s) and most of the time demand is strong.

John, thanks for the input. I also think that the Graham/Shean Cubs variations are some of the more popular of the 2 point cards I noted. I am not sure if they quite get the bump to 3-dom though. If others think they should come forward, and I will increase them. But I will have to deduct a total of two points elsewhere.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

Great thread. Love it.

Glad you like it. In general, anyone with 'T205' in their Net54 ID should check over the list we have created and let us know if any adjustments should be made. It is almost required by law. And this applies for any of you out there with long term experience/interest in this set.

I am giving a few more days for input, until this weekend, and then will close it out and start up the promised T205 EGGS thread.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

I was contacted by an advanced T205 collector who shared with me their own T205 ranking system from multiple years back that utilized SGC power rankings for the cards as a base, and modified those values based upon experience with the set as well as consultation with at least 6 other advanced collectors, many of the names which I recognized from here. I was impressed with all of the effort that went into the decision making process, which is featured on a great website created by them that features the set. After poring over this list and info, I made adjustments to 13 cards, 7 with 1 point additions (E. Collins - mouth open, Crandall - 'T' not crossed, Graham - Cubs, Gray - stats on back, Hoblitzell - name correct, no Cin. after 1908, Latham - W.A. on back, and Shean - Cubs), 5 with 1 point subtractions (Johnson, Joss, Mathewson, Mathewson - incorrect stats, and Young), and 1 card with a 2 point subtraction (Hoblitzell - no stats on back). The 400 point total has been maintained with these changes.

I think the cement on this list has almost hardened...but you still have the chance to scratch your name or make a funny little drawing into it by providing your input. Below is the updated list, with the changes made from the previous list (shown in post #34) once again emboldened and emitalicized to emhance their newly emerged eminence, or conversely, their emdepreciation (somewhat of a stretch on that last one).

Thanks to Turner & Co., and here is a link to the T205 website: https://imageevent.com/babybingbaseball

Brian


Cards with EGS value of 2:

Adkins, Doc ML

Barger, Cy - partial B on cap

Batch, Emil ML

Bender, Chief

Bresnahan - mouth closed

Brown, Mordecai

Cady, Hick ML

Chance, Frank

Chase - border on shirt

Chase - no border on shirt

Clarke, Fred

Collins, Eddie - mouth closed

Crandall, Otis - 'T' not crossed

Daubert, Jake

Donohue, Jiggs SP

Dougherty - red sock

Dougherty - white sock

Duffy, Hugh

Dunn, Jack ML

Ford, Russ - white cap

Frick, James ML

Grant, Ed SP

Gray, Dolly - no stats

Griffith, Clarke

Hanford, Charles ML

Harmon, Robert - only left ear shows

Hoblitzell, Dick - name incorrect/no Cin. after 1908

Huggins, Miller

Jennings, Hugh

Karger, Ed SP

Kleinow, Red SP

Lee, Wyatt ML

Leifield, Lefty - A.P. Leifield on front

Marquard, Rube

McAllister, Sport ML

McGraw, John

Merritt, George ML

Nee, John ML

Phelan, James ML

Rowan, John SP

Scanlan, Doc SP

Suggs, George SP

Sweeney, Jeff SP

Tinker, Joe

Vaughn, Hippo SP

Wagner, Heinie SP

Wallace, Bobby - with cap

Wheat, Zack

White, Kirb SP

Wiltse, Hooks - only right ear shows


Cards with EGS value of 3:

Baker, Frank

Chase, Hal - only left ear shows

Cicotte, Eddie

Dahlen, Bill SP

Evers, Johnny

Fisher, Ray SP

Graham, George - Cubs

Hoblitzell, Dick - name correct/no Cin. after 1908

Latham, Arlie - W.A. Latham on back

Raymond, Bugs SP

Shean, David - Cubs

Turner, Terry SP

Wallace, Bobby - no cap/2 lines of 1910 stats


Cards with value of 4:

Collins, Eddie - mouth open

Collins, Jimmy ML

Speaker, Tris

Walsh, Ed SP

Wilhelm, Kaiser - suffe ed in 18th line of bio SP


Cards with a value of 5:

Bresnahan, Roger - mouth open

Gray, Dolly - stats on back

Mathewson, Christy

Moran, Pat - stray line of type


Cards with a value of 6 or more (EGGS value in parenthesis):

Cobb, Ty (12)

Hoblitzell, Dick - no stats on back (18)

Johnson, Walter (6)

Joss, Addie SP (7)

Mathewson, Christy - Cycle Back, incorrect stats (14)

Wallace, Bobby - no cap - 1 line of 1910 stats (6)

Wilhelm, Kaiser - suffered in 18th line of bio (10)

Young, Cy (7)

[dabbuu]

What about Collins yellow elephant, Hoffman with stripe, White no quotes, Snodgrass missing decimal? These are some if the hardest cards in the set.

[Gorditadogg]

This thread really needs a card.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Eggoman]

I can't provide any more input regarding this point system, but I CAN provide an image!

One of my FAVES!!!

[dabbuu]