Can I see some rare T206 Sweet Cap backs

[skelly423]

I feel like Sweet Caporal backs are the red-headed step child of t206 collecting. Piedmont has the Elite 11, Polar Bear has the Demmit/O’Hara cards, there are some really tough Sovereigns, and the other backs all have some well known rarities. I never hear much about rare Sweet Caps. Please share your rare sweet cap front-back combinations (and maybe a brief explanation of what makes them rare for unsophisticated collectors like me).

[Pat R]

There are many Sweet Caporal combo's that are far tougher than most people would think here's one example

Sweeney SC350 factory 25.jpg


There are 3 Jeff Sweeney Drum's in the PSA pop report but there are only 2 SC350 factory 25's.

Cardtarget only lists 3 sales of this combo since 2009 and 2 of the 3 sales are the same card that sold twice.

[fkm_bky]

Total graded Pop of this Herzog Boston w/ SC 460 Factory 25 is 5. I guess I'd consider that rare for the Sweet Caporal back.

Bill

[stutor]

Here are a couple tough ones. The Lake is tough to find with the factory 25 and the Lajoie was supposed to get the factory 42 overprint. It is one of the group of cards designated as ‘no prints’. It is thought that a sheet or two were taken from the printer before the factory overprint was applied. Then they were later hand cut (hence the Authentic grade). Other (more knowledgeable than myself) collectors can weigh in on this.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by stutor

Here are a couple tough ones. The Lake is tough to find with the factory 25 and the Lajoie was supposed to get the factory 42 overprint. It is one of the group of cards designated as ‘no prints’. It is thought that a sheet or two were taken from the printer before the factory overprint was applied. Then they were later hand cut (hence the Authentic grade). Other (more knowledgeable than myself) collectors can weigh in on this.

Not as pretty as the Lajoie shown, but definitely my Doyle missing its factory 42 overprint really reveals its hand cut (or hand destroyed) nature.

Brian

[Bill77]

Mickey has only 5 graded by PSA with factory 25 listed on the flip.

[Tom S.]

Good topic!

I can't speak to other teams , but since I've been working on my White Sox T206 master set for the past 12+ years, I've found that there are several tough Sweet Caporal Factory 25 front/back combos.

For instance, it took me what seemed like FOREVER to find this George Davis combo:



To reference the PSA pop report...there are only 5 SC350/F25 of this card graded, compared to 7 Old Mills (and its one of the tougher OMs!!), and 9 Brown Hindus.

It's not only 350/25s and 460/25s that can be tough - it also took me a very long time to track down this SC150 F25 combo for Fred Parent:

[chriskim]

I forgot where I saw it and who the player was, but there was a SC back with a factory overprint correction bar printed on the top of the card back instead of the bottom. That was really cool and pretty sure it falls into the "rare" category.

[tedzan]

Hi Chris

Is this the T206 you are referring to......



Or is it, a T206 with a SWEET CAPORAL back ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
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[tedzan]

Normal background is RED..... anyhow, it is a rare color misprint.


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TED Z

T206 Reference
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[Pat R]

Originally Posted by chriskim

I forgot where I saw it and who the player was, but there was a SC back with a factory overprint correction bar printed on the top of the card back instead of the bottom. That was really cool and pretty sure it falls into the "rare" category.

I think this is the one you're talking about Chris

[IMG][/IMG]

[chriskim]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I think this is the one you're talking about Chris

[IMG][/IMG]

Pat, That's it! Lajoie! You got it! Thanks

[chriskim]

Now that looking at the OM back Ted posted (Ted, thx for posting that) and realized that upside down 649 factory overprint was printed about the same place as the place of the OM back. If the printer made mistakes of feeding uncut sheets upside down and printed those 649 factory overprints, they would have been printed on the higher portion of the back, right? And what's the chance of feeding SC and OM sheets upside down and made the same mistake. That's wacky!

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by chriskim

Now that looking at the OM back Ted posted (Ted, thx for posting that) and realized that upside down 649 factory overprint was printed about the same place as the place of the OM back. If the printer made mistakes of feeding uncut sheets upside down and printed those 649 factory overprints, they would have been printed on the higher portion of the back, right? And what's the chance of feeding SC and OM sheets upside down and made the same mistake. That's wacky!

Knowing what we do know about the borders on the T206 sheets I think the upside down 649 overprint is in the right place. I think the top borders of the sheets were bigger than the bottom border so the placement of the upside down overprint would be different on a sheet that was fed upside down.

I've seen large top borders like this but I've never seen bottom borders that big.



[IMG][/IMG]

[brianp-beme]

Sweet Caporal backs can be sneakily tough. I had fun checking through my T206 cards and found 3 cards with PSA population of 3 each. I didn't check SGC (is their pop report working now?), but also it might be noted that these are all raw, so there are probably plenty of tougher ones still flying under the radar. By checking the PSA website, it certainly appears Factory 25 in both the 150 and 350 Series have multiple examples of cards with 9 or less examples graded.

Brian

[chriskim]

OMG Pat! That's totally make sense! Not sure that topic was previously discussed or you took some time tonite and analyzed this. Thank you for sharing your knowledge as always!

[chriskim]

OMG Pat! That totally make sense! Not sure that topic was previously discussed or you took some time tonite and analyzed this. Thank you for sharing your knowledge as always!

[Ronnie73]

There are many difficult Sweet Caporal Combo's. Some are not mentioned because it would then raise the price and make them more difficult to purchase under the radar. Similar to the Nichols Batting with a Polar Bear back. I was buying them raw for $25 for many years and then one day Ted and I had a conversation about the rarity of them, here on Net54, and then the prices went crazy. I was selling my $25 cards for $300-$400.

There were already some nice rarities mentioned. There's a decent group of the 350 Factory 25's, and a few of the 460-25's that are more difficult than others. The PSA population report will give you a decent idea of what's more rare but it's not perfect. They didn't start counting Factory numbers until a few years ago. Plus you can't tell at all what SGC cards are 25's. Then you have all the raw cards still out there.

Here is my complete set of 28 Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 "Group B No Prints"

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

There are many difficult Sweet Caporal Combo's. Some are not mentioned because it would then raise the price and make them more difficult to purchase under the radar. Similar to the Nichols Batting with a Polar Bear back. I was buying them raw for $25 for many years and then one day Ted and I had a conversation about the rarity of them, here on Net54, and then the prices went crazy. I was selling my $25 cards for $300-$400.

There were already some nice rarities mentioned. There's a decent group of the 350 Factory 25's, and a few of the 460-25's that are more difficult than others. The PSA population report will give you a decent idea of what's more rare but it's not perfect. They didn't start counting Factory numbers until a few years ago. Plus you can't tell at all what SGC cards are 25's. Then you have all the raw cards still out there.

Here is my complete set of 28 Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 "Group B No Prints"

Hi Ron

Your scan of the 28 cards that were printed, but not issued with SWEET CAP 460 Factory #30 (Group B) did not appear. So, I took the liberty of posting my scan (hope you don't mind).
The backs of these guys were overprinted with SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory #42.
DITTO for the other 35 subjects (Group A) in the 350/460 series.











Take care, my friend.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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[Pat R]

Its not the rarest but it's pretty tough, it was among a group of 8 that were the last to be confirmed and even though there are a few PSA graded examples with the factory designation on them it's still not in their pop report.

[IMG][/IMG]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

There are many difficult Sweet Caporal Combo's. Some are not mentioned because it would then raise the price and make them more difficult to purchase under the radar. Similar to the Nichols Batting with a Polar Bear back. I was buying them raw for $25 for many years and then one day Ted and I had a conversation about the rarity of them, here on Net54, and then the prices went crazy. I was selling my $25 cards for $300-$400.

There were already some nice rarities mentioned. There's a decent group of the 350 Factory 25's, and a few of the 460-25's that are more difficult than others. The PSA population report will give you a decent idea of what's more rare but it's not perfect. They didn't start counting Factory numbers until a few years ago. Plus you can't tell at all what SGC cards are 25's. Then you have all the raw cards still out there.

Here is my complete set of 28 Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 "Group B No Prints"

I can't view any of the images you post Ron.

[Ronnie73]

Hi Ted and Pat. Thank you for letting me know. I was having a problem seeing images I posted starting about a year ago. But it was only a problem from my desktop. When I'd view the same post on my iphone, the picture would show. At the time others were seeing my pictures, so I left things alone. But hated posting with a picture because I couldn't preview it. So I kinda stopped posting to some topics. Then I found a setting in the Microsoft edge browser. Not sure what you guys are using, but there is an option to view pictures from unsecured sites, meaning the https and http. So I checked it to allow pictures and now I can see the pictures I post on Net54. But in the past year, there must have been a change in the settings of the website to not allow or show unsecured pictures. So, instead of having everyone change their settings on their browser, (found by going to browser settings, cookies and site permissions and then allowing all pictures or adding the Net54 website to the list of trusted sites)(If interested), I'll have to set up that part of my server, so hosted pictures are coming from a trusted site. Thanks again guys!!

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Hi Ted and Pat. Thank you for letting me know. I was having a problem seeing images I posted starting about a year ago. But it was only a problem from my desktop. When I'd view the same post on my iphone, the picture would show. At the time others were seeing my pictures, so I left things alone. But hated posting with a picture because I couldn't preview it. So I kinda stopped posting to some topics. Then I found a setting in the Microsoft edge browser. Not sure what you guys are using, but there is an option to view pictures from unsecured sites, meaning the https and http. So I checked it to allow pictures and now I can see the pictures I post on Net54. But in the past year, there must have been a change in the settings of the website to not allow or show unsecured pictures. So, instead of having everyone change their settings on their browser, (found by going to browser settings, cookies and site permissions and then allowing all pictures or adding the Net54 website to the list of trusted sites)(If interested), I'll have to set up that part of my server, so hosted pictures are coming from a trusted site. Thanks again guys!!

That's interesting Ron because I just went in my wife's office to see if I could view the images on her computers and they didn't show up on the two computers she has set up, and the browser on one of them is Microsoft edge.

[tedzan]

Hi Ron

It is amazing that you have all 28 (Group B) of the T206's that were printed with the SWEET CAP 460 Factory #30, but not issued.
Do, you have any of the other 35 (Group A) of the T206's in this 350/460 series ? I have one, Mike Donlin......


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TED Z

T206 Reference
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[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Ron

It is amazing that you have all 28 (Group B) of the T206's that were printed with the SWEET CAP 460 Factory #30, but not issued.
Do, you have any of the other 35 (Group A) of the T206's in this 350/460 series ? I have one, Mike Donlin......

TED Z

T206 Reference
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Hi Ted, No, I don't have any of the Group A Yellow/Brown Scraps. It was always my plan to work on that set next, but life, problems, and the lack of time kinda makes that task difficult.

When you say it's amazing to have all 28, the real amazing part was when I was studying the T206 set and finding certain groups of cards that matched certain print runs. I spent nearly a whole year disecting the T206 set, before even buying my first card. That was in 2010.

By 2011, I had split apart the Sweet Caporal Over Print cards into four groups. First by putting all the Overprint cards that could also be found without the Overprint into two groups, and then breaking the exclusive Overprint Only cards into two groups. Which at some point you named Group A and Group B. The only difference with my list was I had kept the Superprints in their own group, with the other cards that could be found without the Overprint. So, back in 2010-2011, I knew there was the possibility that some cards from the group of 57 cards (Group A and B, minus the Superprints) could have missed their Overprint pass. I had the 57 cards in two groups, one with 29 cards and the other with 28 cards. I was keeping track of the Yellow/Brown scraps, and they were matching the list with 29 cards.

For three years, I searched all the auctions on eBay and other auction websites until I finally found a listing with one of the cards from the 28 card list. The card was Ed Willetts. It was an auction listing that was just posted. I contacted the seller and offered $60 if he would end the auction early, which he did. A week later, the same seller listed a Heinie Wagner Bat On Right Shoulder. I contacted him with the same offer and he accepted. That's when eBay wasn't as strict. I asked him if he had any other cards, but those were the only two he had.

It wasn't until another year and a half passed, and that was when a different seller started listing ten cards a week in an auction format. This seller wouldn't end the auctions early and he told me that he was selling the cards for his neighbor and was only being given ten at a time. Not all cards he had, were exclusive Overprint only. Some were from the other 52 cards that could be found with or without the Overprint. So, some were not as special, but they were all hand cut scraps. The exclusive Overprint Only cards were matching my 28 card list perfect. I won the first two weeks worth of cards under the radar. It was on the third weeks listings that someone asked a question here on Net54. Next thing I knew, bids were going up and certain cards were getting pricey. The secret was out. But I was the only one with a checklist. But it was simple enough for people to look up what cards being listed, should or shouldn't exist. On the end of the third weeks bidding, I only focused on the cards that mattered most and left the common scrap cards deplete some pockets of other buyers. I believe I won all the No Prints on the third week, but it was expensive. When the fourth weeks cards were listed, there was one duplicate of a previous weeks cards. Now I'm wondering how many cards does this guy have, and if duplicates are already showing up, will they turn into common cards when its all said and done. During the fourth week, I was contacted by Pete Gustafson. He was able to figure out it was me that was buying up all the cards. While on Net54, everyone wondering who was buying them, I played dumb and didn't post to those threads because I wanted them to get lost in the mix. Pete and I worked together so we wouldn't be bidding each other up. We agreed on some basic rules. I got first dibs on any new unique cards I needed. Pete would get dibs if a duplicate second card was listed, and I got dibs on any duplicates after the second duplicate. Basically Pete just wanted one of each card, if a double showed up. During the weeks and then months that passed, everything was matching my checklist. Pete didn't know I had a checklist during the whole period of time that this seller listed cards on eBay. One of the big cards on my checklist was the Ty Cobb Bat Off Shoulder. One was eventually listed, and I had dibs. I won it. Weeks later, another was listed. That one was Pete's, which he won. A month or two later, he sold his Cobb. All he would tell me was he got an offer he couldn't refuse. A couple weeks later, he was regreting selling it. Not much longer after that, I was told by the seller that he had one more weeks of cards and that was all of them. He also mentioned that there was one more Cobb. Him and the owner of the cards were shocked by the prices of the first two and saved the third and last Cobb for the last auction. Pete asked me if he could bid on it and I said yes. Plus by this point, I was broke. I knew what I would have bid on the last Cobb if I was bidding, but I expected Pete to win. It ended well below what I would have snipped. It ended and Pete didn't win it. I could have had a second Cobb. I was upset for a couple weeks but whatever, I had one of them. So, at this point, I had 56 No Print cards total. 54 came from this one seller. I tracked 109 No Prints that he ended up listing. Pete won 24 cards. The rest were duplicates that neither of us needed and other random bidders won if they were lucky enough to outbid me. Which did happen, but they payed big dollars.

At this point, the only problem was that I was still missing one card from my 28 card checklist. I only had 27 different cards. I was still missing Nap Lajoie Batting. But I still had an advantage, because I knew what to look for. A little over a year later, a Lajoie appeared on ebay as an auction, and in the description it said they didn't end auctions early and to not ask. It was a very stressful week. I wasn't sure if anyone would see what I knew. The other problem was the card was in a BVG 5 holder, so I figured it would get more attention. I won it for real cheap. About a month later, I talked to Pete and told him about my checklist, since I had all 28 cards I needed. About a month later, Pete sold his cards to David Hall. Pete asked me if he could share my checklist with David and I said yes. David had all the cards graded that he bought from Pete by PSA instantly and not long after that, the No Prints section started showing up on PSA's population report.

This is when things got a bit confusing. A few members on Net54 were talking about how David had a complete set and also got a checklist from David. But the checklist was exact to my checklist that I shared to Pete, right down to the spacing. But everyone swore David had all 28, including Lajoie. Then some members were saying the Lajoie didn't exist because it wasn't part of the big group of cards that sold on eBay a couple years back. I finally posted the picture of my Lajoie and tried to explain that it was my set of 28 cards that others were crediting David with, and at one point I wondered if he really did have all 28 cards, but the population reports don't lie, well, for the No Prints, at that time, since those were the first to be graded and put in that section. There were still some non believers. As far as I know, my set is the only complete intact set. Since another Lajoie has surfaced, It is possible for another set to be built. It would be difficult, because 4 of the 28 cards only had 2 cards surface so far. As of typing this, PSA only shows 24 of the 28 cards in the No Print section of the population report. Joe Lake, St Louis, No Ball is actually in the wrong section and with all the other 350-460 Factory 30's. Wid Conroy With Bat, Nap Lajoie With Bat, and Tommy Leach Bending Over, are still nowhere to be found. Even after multiple requests for the error to be fixed and for the three missing cards to be added, I was told they had it under control, and now I'm just ignored, Sorry for the long story, but it is part of T206 history.

Since I'm having issues posting pictures on Net54, maybe those who want to see the set, can go to the web page picture directly. Hope it works.

http://www.myt206.com/net54/noprintset.jpg

[chriskim]

Ron, I think you can write a book of how u obtain those super rare t206 SC backs. I would be a buyer of that book!

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by chriskim

Ron, I think you can write a book of how u obtain those super rare t206 SC backs. I would be a buyer of that book!

Thanks Chris. Honestly, many people have always said I should write a book on my life. I hear it so often. But I tell them that it would be a best seller while at the same time being the book that people wished they never read.

[tedzan]

How's about a rare SWEET CAP front, instead.....giving this thread a friendly bump.





TED Z

T206 Reference
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[chriskim]

Originally Posted by tedzan

How's about a rare SWEET CAP front, instead.....giving this thread a friendly bump.





TED Z

T206 Reference
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Oh.. very interesting, that Doolan yellow scrap isn't fall in Group A nor Group B.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by chriskim

Oh.. very interesting, that Doolan yellow scrap isn't fall in Group A nor Group B.

Chris

Group A (35 subjects) and Group B (28 subjects) refer to the 350/460 Series guys which I have identified as the Mutually-Exclusive T206's. Check out....T206 REFERENCE
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816 ....Post #8


Doolan (fielding) is a 350-only Series T206.


TED Z
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