Pre-war Non-HOFers Worth Collecting

[Cmvorce]

Shawn Gallagher’s post earlier tonight got me thinking about my pre-war wish list. I’ve expanded beyond HOFers to include other notable players. Who makes the wish list is sort of arbitrary but I do try to follow some guidelines. I like to deploy the Mattingly / Jackson method. Don Mattingly and Bo Jackson didnt sniff the Hall, but my card collection wouldn’t be complete without them. So, I look to add players like them. Perennial league leaders in major categories, or the equivalent of multiple all star appearances. The top performers at their position during their playing days. Or those like Bo who had that extra undefinable something. Anyway, I already have a very long list of non-HOF who I want in my collection, but who am I missing? Who should I know about but don’t. Here is my list:

Cupid Childs
Dave Orr
Harry Stovey
Jim Devlin
Paul Hines
Pete Browning
Silver King
Tip O’Neil
Kid Gleason
Jack Glasscock
Bob Caruthers
Roy Thomas
Joe Jackson
Stuffy McGinnis
Art Fletcher
Bill Bradley
Bill Dahlen
Jack Barry
Chick Gandil
Chief Bender
Chief Meyers
Eddie Cicotte
Wildfire Schulte
Fred Merkle
Gavvy Cravath
Hal Chase
Harry Davis
Harry Lumley
Larry Doyle
Sherry Magee
Mike Donlin
Buck Weaver
Jake Daubert
Hippo Vaughn
Babe Adams
Bob Shawkey
Roger Peckinpaugh
Smoky Joe Wood
Wally Schang
Slim Sallee
Jim Thorpe
Baby Doll Jacobson
Dave Bancroft
Happy Felsch
Lefty Williams
Wally Pipp
Cy Williams
Dutch Leonard
Bob Meusel
Eddie Rommel
George Burns
Irish Meusel
Ken Williams
Urban Shocker
Buzz Arlett
Babe Herman
Bob O’Farrell
Firpo Marberry
Frank Crosetti
Jo-Jo Moore
Lefty O’Doul
Lon Warneke
Moe Berg
Riggs Stevenson
Tommy Bridges
Wally Berger
Dixie Walker
Pepper Martin
Red Rolfe
Schoolboy Rowe
Stan Hack
Doc Cramer
Dolph Camilli
Mel Harder
Ripper Collins
Rudy York
Dizzy Trout
Mort Cooper
Paul Dean
Spud Chandler
Bob Johnson
Bucky Walters
Charlie Keller
Dom DiMaggio
Dutch Leonard
Eddie Miller
Frank McCormick
Frankie Hayes
George McQuinn
Harlond Clift
Johnny Vander Meer
Paul Derringer
Tommy Heinrich
Vince DiMaggio

[NiceDocter]

Two more quirky names..... Ten Million and Louis Sockalexis (sp?) .

[G1911]

I'd add Jack Quinn, I always try to pick his cards up since he's a common with a great career and history. Pitched until age 49, and outperformed the league ERA all the way through his age 48 season. Appeared in T205/T206/T207 and 1933 Goudey as an active MLB player (unlike Lajoie, Speaker and Collins), won 249 games with a 114 career ERA+. Not a HOFer, but a consistently good and extremely long career.

[Mark17]

Robert Henry Bescher (February 25, 1884 – November 29, 1942) was a baseball outfielder who played 11 seasons in the major leagues. Born in London, Ohio, he played his best seasons with the Cincinnati Reds, and was one of the National League's best base stealers during his time.

The switch-hitting Bescher played 5 seasons with Cincy, and established himself as a dangerous player on the basepaths with the Reds. He led the NL in stolen bases for four consecutive years from 1909 to 1912, and his 81 stolen bases in 1911 set a league record which was not broken for over 50 years.

Outside of stolen bases, he was the NL leader in runs in 1912, and was the NL leader in walks in 1913. Also in 1912, he hit a career-best .282 and finished 5th in voting for the Chalmers Award, a forerunner to the modern MVP award.

[Mungo Hungo]

I've found a nice cutoff to be players who reached WAR 20, either Fangraphs or or Baseball Reference, and that's defined my sets for the period before I started watching baseball. That certainly includes pre-war.

[Casey2296]

Great list. Benders in the Hall, switch him out for Dummy Hoy.

[sayitaintso]

I read through your list and you have some really great players here.. how about Jimmy Sheckard and Big Ed Reulbach ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by sayitaintso

I read through your list and you have some really great players here.. how about Jimmy Sheckard and Big Ed Reulbach ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reulbach makes me think of Doc White. Both #2 men on their respective Chicago staffs.

[Mark]

good list. early Giants, A's, Cubs, White Sox, Yankees, later Reds... good themes. in addition to many of those names, I reflexibly collect Heinie Groh and Hank Gowdy. I also add Fred Snodgrass if he comes up. He was once almost as infamous as Merkle.

[SAllen2556]

As a Tiger fan, might I suggest Bobby Veach, probably the best Tiger not in the Hall of Fame.

From SABR: As the clean-up hitter on one of the strongest offensive teams of his day, Bobby Veach was one of the truly great RBI men of the late Deadball Era, easily leading the major leagues in runs driven in over the twelve years, 1913 to 1924, that he was a full time player. Veach drove in over 100 runs in a season six times, hit 30 or more doubles eight times and smacked ten or more triples ten years in a row. In all, Veach played for 14 major league seasons and hit .300 or better ten times, finishing with a lifetime .310 batting average.

[tiger8mush]

Colby Jack Coombs, Deacon McGuire and Deacon Phillippe are 3 of my favorite 4 non-HOFers to collect (Stovey being my 4th, already on your list).

[packs]

I'll just one single card of an otherwise forgotten man:

Art Whitney with Dog

[vansaad]

John Titus

[packs]

Also add Ray Chapman to the list. His cards are always expensive.

[abothebear]

How about Big Ed Konetchy, The Candy Kid.

Some quotes and stats from Wikipedia:

“While he was considered an above-average hitter (he batted over .300 four times) he was more known around the league for his supreme consistency, his never-faltering speed, and his high degree of defensive skill at first base.”
“By the end of 1920, he had surpassed 2000 career hits and was quite high on the all-time leaderboard (into the top 25).”
And some career highlights:
* Stole home twice on September 30, 1907 against Boston
* Broke up four no-hitters over the course of his career
* Hit two inside-the-park home runs against Brooklyn on August 5, 1912
* Picked up hits in 10 consecutive at bats in 1919, tying a record which would later be broken
* Led the league in total bases in 1915 (278)
* Made the Top 10 in the league in batting average six times (1909, 1910, 1912, 1915, 1919, 1920)
* Holds an MLB record with 4 consecutive seasons with 20 or more triples (1909-1912

Then there is this chestnut.
“In 1911, with the Cards only three games out of first place in early July, the team was involved in a train crash on its way from Philadelphia to Boston. 47 passengers were injured, while twelve died. None of the Cardinals were seriously injured, due to a pre-trip change in the location of their car to the rear of the train. Konetchy and Cards manager Roger Bresnahan led the rescue effort, carrying many passengers to safety, some of whom may have died. Despite posting their first winning season since 1901, the Cardinals never recovered from the incident, finishing a distant fifth; but Konetchy led the NL with 38 doubles, and his own team with six home runs and 88 RBIs.”

He probably gets less credit than he deserves because he played on poor teams. And though he was consistently near the top in many categories, was never the bright shining star at the very top.

[bobbvc]

Hans Lobert

[judsonhamlin]

I'll add Mike Tiernan from the NY teams of the 1880's and '90s

[packs]

So there's a card of somebody:

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by packs

I'll just one single card of an otherwise forgotten man:

Art Whitney with Dog

Forgotten dog, too.

[riggs336]

Moses Yellowhorse

[SD]

Wild Bill Donovan
Arlington Latham
Heine Zimmerman
Carl Mays
Tom Pratt
Art Develin
Elmer Flick
Elmer Smith
Sam Crawford
Harry Heilman
Sam Coveleski
Adolfo Luque
Jack Fournier
Johnny Allen
Bill Lee
Johnny Kling
Sherry Magee
Ed Reulbach
Shanty Hogan
Muddy Ruel

[Prince Hal]

I would add Wayne Terwillger, Hank Bauer and Ralph Houk. All served with distinction on WWII. I always marvel at the men who fought in the war and came home to play again.

[SD]

One blacklisted for the Blackbox scandal the other killed in ww2.

Originally Posted by Prince Hal

I would add Wayne Terwillger, Hank Bauer and Ralph Houk. All served with distinction on WWII. I always marvel at the men who fought in the war and came home to play again.

[tonyo]

this isn't stat or career based, but when I was putting together a pre-war type collection, I targeted Hall of Famers OR players who were featured in The Glory of Their Times

Jimmy Austin
Rube Bressler
Al Bridwell
Stan Coveleski
Sam Crawford
George Gibson
Goose Goslin
Hank Greenberg
Heinie Groh
Babe Herman
Harry Hooper
Davy Jones
Sad Sam Jones
Willie Kamm
Tommy Leach
Hans Lobert
Rube Marquard
Chief Meyers
Lefty O'Doul
Bob O'Farrell
Edd Roush
Fred Snodgrass
Specs Toporcer
Bill Wambsganss
Paul Waner
Joe Wood

[Exhibitman]

For PCL fans, Ox Eckhardt. Per Wikipedia:

Oscar George "Ox" Eckhardt (December 23, 1901 – April 22, 1951) was an outfielder for the Boston Braves and Brooklyn Dodgers. Eckhardt holds the known all-time professional baseball record for batting average, counting both major and minor league stats: .365 (Ty Cobb holds the major league record, .366, but Cobb's minor league average of .304 lowers his total professional-ball average to .364, second behind Eckhardt. Eckhardt hit .192 in the major leagues, but in just 52 at bats, so his known minor league average of .366 was lowered just one point.) In spite of his outstanding ability to hit for average, Eckhardt – a poor fielder who lacked much home run power – was never able to establish himself in the major leagues. In 1933, he hit .414 for the San Francisco Missions, which is still the PCL (Pacific Coast League) record. In 1935, he again won the PCL batting title, edging out 20-year-old Joe DiMaggio, .399 to .398. This finally earned him a slot on a major league club, the 1936 Brooklyn Dodgers, with a chance to win a job as a regular. But Eckhardt was 36 years old by then, was still a poor fielder with little power, and in ten starts hit just .182 in 44 at bats. He was sent back to the minors, never to return. Eckhardt also played halfback and quarterback for the Texas Longhorns, and professionally as a halfback in 11 games for the New York Giants of the National Football League.

[Cmvorce]

Thank you, everyone. Definitely some players named who I am not yet familiar with and will be reading up on them shortly. Looks like my want list is about to get longer.

[JLange]

I like the addition of Mel Harder. I would also consider pitcher George Uhle and outfielder Charlie Jamieson. Uhle pitched to 200 wins in 17 seasons with Cleveland, Detroit, and New York. Jamieson had a lifetime .303 BA over 18 seasons with Cleveland, Washington, and Philadelphia. Also consider adding Ray Chapman to the list.

[molenick]

I will suggest 19th century outfielder Jimmy Ryan. It's not a travesty that his is not in the Hall of Fame but if he got in, he would be better than several already elected (of his ten most similar players, eight are HOFers). He is somewhere between the fourth and eighth best centerfielder of the 19th century (behind Hamilton, Duffy, and Browning and in the same group as Gore, Griffin, Hines, and Van Haltren). .308 lifetime average, 2513 hits, 1643 runs scored (sixth highest among 19th century players, based on eyeballing the list), and the career assists leader as an outfielder until Speaker passed him in 1924 (he is still third).

[Angyale]

Jim McCormick

[sdimag]

Ed Abbaticchio ,played infield with Honus Wagner with Pirates. Also a star football player for Latrobe from 1895-1900.Credited with developing the first spiral punt.Is also the first Italian surname to appear in the major leagues.

[John1941]

Harry Krause was basically the first Mark Fidrych, as in his rookie year he won 18 games and led the league in ERA. After that he hurt his arm, but went back to the minors and ended up with over 300 pro wins.

Joe Hauser doesn't have many cards, but he's definitely an interesting player. In 1924, he was second in the AL in homers with 27, behind only Babe Ruth, but then he got hurt, and never had a full season in the majors again, though he could still hit well. Going back to the minors, he had homer totals of 63 and 69 for the Baltimore Orioles and Minneapolis Millers. One of the great minor league sluggers of all time.

Jigger Statz is another one who is primarily noteworthy as a minor leaguer. In 1923 for the Chicago Cubs he hit .319 with 209 hits, but he spent most of his career with the Los Angeles Angels. Actually, the Angels were the only minor league team he ever played with, as he spent 18 years with them between 1920 and 1942. He had 737 hits in the majors and 3,356 in the PCL, and so is one of the few pro players with over 4,000 hits. Just realized he died today 33 years ago, so good timing I guess. RIP.

Jack Ogden is featured in 1933 Goudey as a Baltimore Oriole. He was the ace of the legendary Orioles during their dynasty, compiling a 213-103 record in AA, which was then the highest classification.

Joe Oeschger, of the legendary 26-inning duel, might be worth getting a card of.

[molenick]

Someone already mentioned that Bender shouldn't be on the original list (since he is in the HOF) and I will add that Bancroft is on the original list and is also in the HOF. As a replacement (although at a different position) here is Hal Trosky, who had some great years at first base with Cleveland in the 1930s, including 42/162/.343 in 1936. Despite leading the league in RBIs (and in total bases with 405) he did not make the All-Star team and finished 10th in MVP voting. Playing in the same era as Gehrig, Foxx, and Greenberg, Wikipedia says he is "widely considered one of the best players to never make an All-Star team".

[tennisguy]

Tinker to Evers to Chance to.......how about Harry Steinfeldt

[jakebeckleyoldeagleeye]

What about Cy Seymour? He's the only player ever as a pitcher to lead a league in strikeouts and then also leads the league in hitting. Babe Ruth didn't even do that.

[packs]

Wes Ferrell is another one. He had one of the best all around seasons of all time in 1935; winning 25 games and batting 347. I always thought his contribution as a true two-way player has often been overlooked. he hit 280 over 15 years and it's not like he didn't get at bats either.

[puckpaul]

How about Moe Berg? Not the greatest player but such an interesting story. Not too many cards. His rookie....

[Fred]

"Indian" Bob Johnson - Is it PC to use that distinction anymore?

[Jason19th]

Wasn’t appreciated in his day, but was a base on balls machine who walked his way to a 423 career on base percentage and scored over 100 runs fours years in a row.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

I didn't see Shoeless Joe on the list. But he would be #1.

[TobaccoKing4]

Ginger Beaumont. He was a .311 career hitter and won a batting title in 1902. He'd probably be more well known if it wasn't for knee injuries limiting his playing ability and ending his career.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Fred

"Indian" Bob Johnson - Is it PC to use that distinction anymore?

Call him whatever you want. But put the man in the Hall Of Fame where he belongs!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Call him whatever you want. But put the man in the Hall Of Fame where he belongs!

Hi Tom

I say DITTO to every thing you just said.




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Cmvorce]

Just wanted to follow up with you all on this. Thanks for the great recommendations. I had so much fun researching the players I wasn’t familiar with. I added the vast majority to my want list, which continues to grow rather than shrink.

[Kenny Cole]

Depending on how far you want to go back, I would suggest Jim McCormick, Tony Mullane and Bobby Matthews, all great 1880's pitchers.

[Leon]

I agree with Chief Meyers..

Originally Posted by Cmvorce

Shawn Gallagher’s post earlier tonight got me thinking about my pre-war wish list. I’ve expanded beyond HOFers to include other notable players. Who makes the wish list is sort of arbitrary but I do try to follow some guidelines. I like to deploy the Mattingly / Jackson method. Don Mattingly and Bo Jackson didnt sniff the Hall, but my card collection wouldn’t be complete without them. So, I look to add players like them. Perennial league leaders in major categories, or the equivalent of multiple all star appearances. The top performers at their position during their playing days. Or those like Bo who had that extra undefinable something. Anyway, I already have a very long list of non-HOF who I want in my collection, but who am I missing? Who should I know about but don’t. Here is my list:

Cupid Childs
Dave Orr
Harry Stovey
Jim Devlin
Paul Hines
Pete Browning
Silver King
Tip O’Neil
Kid Gleason
Jack Glasscock
Bob Caruthers
Roy Thomas
Joe Jackson
Stuffy McGinnis
Art Fletcher
Bill Bradley
Bill Dahlen
Jack Barry
Chick Gandil
Chief Bender
Chief Meyers
Eddie Cicotte
Wildfire Schulte
Fred Merkle
Gavvy Cravath
Hal Chase
Harry Davis
Harry Lumley
Larry Doyle
Sherry Magee
Mike Donlin
Buck Weaver
Jake Daubert
Hippo Vaughn
Babe Adams
Bob Shawkey
Roger Peckinpaugh
Smoky Joe Wood
Wally Schang
Slim Sallee
Jim Thorpe
Baby Doll Jacobson
Dave Bancroft
Happy Felsch
Lefty Williams
Wally Pipp
Cy Williams
Dutch Leonard
Bob Meusel
Eddie Rommel
George Burns
Irish Meusel
Ken Williams
Urban Shocker
Buzz Arlett
Babe Herman
Bob O’Farrell
Firpo Marberry
Frank Crosetti
Jo-Jo Moore
Lefty O’Doul
Lon Warneke
Moe Berg
Riggs Stevenson
Tommy Bridges
Wally Berger
Dixie Walker
Pepper Martin
Red Rolfe
Schoolboy Rowe
Stan Hack
Doc Cramer
Dolph Camilli
Mel Harder
Ripper Collins
Rudy York
Dizzy Trout
Mort Cooper
Paul Dean
Spud Chandler
Bob Johnson
Bucky Walters
Charlie Keller
Dom DiMaggio
Dutch Leonard
Eddie Miller
Frank McCormick
Frankie Hayes
George McQuinn
Harlond Clift
Johnny Vander Meer
Paul Derringer
Tommy Heinrich
Vince DiMaggio

[aljurgela]

like these guys

[CooperstownExpert]

Born in 1872, Deacon Phillippe grew up in the Dakota Territory outside the reach of pro talent evaluators. Undiscovered until after his family moved to Minnesota, Phillippe was almost 27 by the time he threw his first big league pitch. He reeled off 5 straight 20-win seasons to start his career.
To me he falls below Cooperstown line but he still had one heck of a career. Phillippe owns the the lowest lifetime walks-per-nine mark from 60'6". He posted six 20-win seasons, a .634 winning percentage, 242 complete games, and 189 big-league wins. He won the first World Series game in baseball history. Phillippe's 44 innings, 5 complete games, and three wins in the '03 tilt have yet to be topped.
Had he broken in a few years earlier, he'd probably be in the Hall of Fame. Here's a link to cool story about him.
There's an example of Pillippe's signature and a ball signed by 6 guys who played in the first World Series.

[oldjudge]

My two choices would be Pete Browning and Jim Thorpe.

[alaskapaul3]

How about Lave Cross....21 Seasons played 2651H (78th best)

[kkkkandp]

I know I've used David Nemec's books as a source of inspiration for picking up Old Judge cards. They don't have to be stars or even semi-stars. Nemec has put forth a couple of evaluations of the Worst Player of the 19th Century. Or odd-ball things like left-handed catchers. Or just the picture itself - like Whitney with dog.

I would have added Lave Cross and Pete Browning to your list as well, but how about Billy Sunday or Gus Weyhing?