jim spence

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Posted By: Anonymous

You know that im not trying to insult or put down anyone here but your last statement makes some one belive that some of the signtures are good is by far the most out landish statement I have ever heard. If Jimmy Spence in his LOA wrote that the campy erskin robinson reese alston furrilo are fake but the rest are good what do think this ball would sell for. I cant belive that your are telling me that by saying club house you can sell the ball as partly real without knowing which players signitures are real or not. In his artical the way I read it and the way he shows it all the signitures are phoney. No where did he say that the ball had any real signitures.
I just am stuned by your arguement.You would sell this ball as authentic is what you are saying.

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Posted By: MW

Actually, it's not a ball full of forgeries. Most of the clubhouse signatures on the ball are confined to a single panel. This is typical of a 1955 Brooklyn Dodgers clubhouse baseball.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Tell me where you know what is good and what is bad. He said that this is a clubhouse ball because of certain things whithin the ball the panel was only part of the statement. I dont know if I am talking to Jimmey or not but your arguements are beyond belive. The ball has some of the most important people on that are forged forged forged. that makes the dodger team ball a forgery/. It say dodger team ball. if any part of the ball is forged its not a team ball any longer. Are you pulling my chain or are you a complete idiot.

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

Please tell me what signitures on the dodger ball are real. please show me where spence says any of the signtures are real. I just dont understand how some one can make a ball that is garbage into something other than what it is.

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Posted By: scgaynor

The LOA that you are talking about is almost 5 years old. I believe that things have changed in the way that LOA's are written since that time.

Every PSA/DNA or GAI LOA that I have seen over the past few years does break down the clubhouse signatures vs authentic signatures.

Shelly, just because your friend, who is not in the hobby, didn't understand what "clubhhouse" means is not a reason to have to explain common hobby terms in an LOA. Does your friend know what a "Sweet Spot" is, how about "ONL" or "OAL". If he is an autograph ball collector, then he should know. If he is not, then I would not expect him to know.


In response to Dennis:

"i think each item merits its own LOA WITH A MATCHING HOLOGRAM or corresponding # ---if one pays for authentiction for 6 items ,then 6 seperate LOA'S SHOULD be issued,not one."

That is true, but Auction House style certs are meant to be cost effective for the auction house. If you want holograms, then 1 LOA costs $50, 6 LOA's costs $300. If you want individual LOA's, they are happy to give them to you, but you have to pay more.


"i think we all could agree w/this. also, the cluhouse ball should be IDed as a ball signed by a batboy or attendent,although period,surely a forgery. "

It is, by use of the word "clubhouse."


In response to Rob

"This is why "auction house" style LOAs are BS. You can't certify 100 3x5 cards on a blanket LOA. This is a practice that has to stop."

Why can't you certify 100 3 x 5 cards with one LOA? If they are all authentic, why do you need more than one LOA?

Scott

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

your company deals with consignment and I know you do your best to have everything that you sell authenticated. Im only trying to help the poor slob who is just learning. A letter should tell you everything about the item and if the item is forged it should say forged not clubhouse. I only want everyone smart or dumb to be able to read a LOA and have no doubts about what it says. ball. I would be interested in seeing a more up to date letter from psa telling me what signitures are real or not on a dodger ball. I know that if its a yankee ball they will say mantle clubhouse but not anyone else. I also think that it should be called a forged signiture because that is what it is. I think they dont call it a forgery because the price of the ball would go way down.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

In response to Rob

"This is why "auction house" style LOAs are BS. You can't certify 100 3x5 cards on a blanket LOA. This is a practice that has to stop."

Why can't you certify 100 3 x 5 cards with one LOA? If they are all authentic, why do you need more than one LOA?

Scott

If someone wanted to break up the lot and sell part of it how would the LOA be used? Would the provider of the LOA give the person 100 copied LOAs with the entire lot? That would really leave someone open to temptation.

In the case of valuable baseballs I would think that each ball should have its own LOA for the same reason - what if someone wanted to break up the lot?

That's just my opinion. Everyone has one, mine is no better or worse than anyone elses, unless you agree with it or disagree with it.

If signatures are "clubhouse" then the LOA needs to specify what "clubhouse" means and which ones are "clubhouse." My rationale for this is because not everyone is completely aware of the different acronyms and jargon used on this material. I've heard the arguement that if you don't know what it is then you shouldn't be buying it. What if it were your mother, wife or girlfriend buying you a surprise gift? They may not know what to ask or what the "odd" words indicate.

I showed a Gehrig autograph I have to a few of the "experts" and they were split on it - 2 yes, 2 no. I'm sure if I were to have paid for a LOA it might have been nice, but I was just curious to see what these "experts" thought giving it a cursory review. The autograph is on a New York World Fair Laurel Card. The signature was almost exactly like the one in the Halper auction. I suppose I could pay to have it authenticated and send it to all the experts. How would I sell it? Would I provide the LOAs from the ones that believe it's real and also provide the rejection letters from those that don't think it's real? Just how much stuff out there do you think has been submitted and resubmitted until it passed (by at least one person)? After getting "the" blessing from one of the "gods" then I could go out and "legitimately" sell it, even though another "diety" said it wasn't the real deal.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

this is a typical nouveau-Net 54 witch hunt...it's what the board has devolved into - a forum for newbies to come in and roast their enemies prior to contributing anything meaningful whatsoever that's related to vintage cards.

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

There where hundreds of Mantle Williams sweet spot balls sold as real signitures to many people in the late 80's early 90's. These people then went out and had them signed by the other five hundred hr hitters. Psa Global Online authenticts would not authenticate the balls if they caught them in time. Why? Aren't the Mantle and Williams clubhouse signitures and the other signitures good. There where over 5000 hr balls sold that where forgerys in that time period are they not clubhouse balls. Why is it that these have no value. They are part of history. What about all the Ruth Pieces that psa authenticated that where photo copys. Should we call them clubhouse and give them value.

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Posted By: scgaynor

Shelly, it has been my experience that they list all clubhouse signatures on the LOA. If they only list Mantle, then Mantle is most likely the only clubhouse signature on the ball.

I don't really understand it either, but for some reason "clubhouse" signatures are more acceptable to collectors than "forgeries". If you just call it a forgery, it lumps it in with all of the other crap that you see in SCD or usually on Ebay.

I believe that for most people the word "forgery" connotes some guy sitting at a table scribbling Mickey Mantle's name on 8 x 10'' photos, where as a "clubhouse" Mantle is more acceptable because it was common practice for the era to have the clubhouse attendant sign the names of major stars.

Scott

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

Scott im not new to this hobby. Im the one that just had Heitman come on and answer your questions. this is not a witch hunt this is as important to your questions regarding trimming bleaching and all the other problems in the card side of the hobby. If we protect each other and stop the bs that is out there we can all feel comfortable about dealing in this business. I have been in the hobby fof over 30 years. I just wanted to say what i felt was wrong with the side I know best.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I agree Scott. This thread started because Spence supposedly called a clubhouse ball a ball autographed by the players. No one had actually read the text of the LOA, but naturally that makes no difference. When it turned out Spence did call it a clubhouse ball, some had to find something new to moan about.

Spence called it a clubhouse ball. If you think he should have explained the clubhouse part better so a newbee would have a better idea what that means, that's fine. But Spence called it a clubhouse ball. Get over it.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

but we need to witch-hunt "responsibly".

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

You are right everyone that said that the loa was ambiguous is wrong.Spence is right. Now tell me what signitures are real on the ball. Or if there are no real signitures how can someone sell it.

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Posted By: scgaynor

Shelly, those other signatures on the 500 HR ball's are not "clubhouse", they are modern "forgeries". My point is that there is a difference. Facsimilies are also not "clubhouse", they are simply printed like a photocopy or rubber stamp. The autograph hobby does not use the term clubhouse in that way.

In response to Judge Dred:

The auction house style LOA is intended to act as a LOA for the buyer of the lot only. If the buyers wants to get individual LOA's for each item, that is up to them. Can you imagine how much time it would take to generate individual LOA's for each piece in some of those huge catalog auction lots. On a lot of 100 3 x 5 index cards, the LOA's themselves would cost $500-$1000 and that is if you could cut a sweet deal with the authenticator. What do you do with the lots of 500, 3000, or 10,000 pieces? Are you going to create individual LOA's for each Billy Champion, Garry Maddox and Geoff Zahn signed index card?

Scott

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Posted By: Rob L

What do you mean, that an LOA of 100 cards is viable if they are all authentic. You, as well as I know of numerous times that items that were covered under one of these blanket LOAs failed when resubmitted. Ask Kevin Keating about this. Auction house LOAs aren't worth the paper they are written. It's just a cheap practice used by the auction houses to pump alot of stuff out, including items that are considered crap.

Rob L

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Posted By: scgaynor

I said a blanket cert is fine if they are all authentic.

If there is something that didn't pass in the lot of 100 pieces, than the blanket cert is not fine. If the authenticator didn't take the time to examine all 100 pieces, that is a problem. I agree with that 100%.

Scott

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Posted By: Rob L

Okay, but that means that we have to assume that all of the autographs are legit. There are to many times that items from these lots are sent in individually and fail. I have personally discussed this with Spence a year ago and he said that the items are given a cursory review and the price for these reviews is less. It's cheap and doesn't work. I can give you an LOA that stands up good as these.

Rob L

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Posted By: scgaynor

It is much cheaper to do the auction house style LOA's. I get them done from time to time but PSA/DNA has always done more than a cursory review. I, however, break things down more than most catalog auctions so the lots are generally single items or have just a few pieces. I also have other checks and balances in place for authentication.

If you found items that didn't pass you should bring it up with the dealer that you bought it from. You may have to get a 2nd opinion, but If the dealer / Auction House is honorable they will make it right. If they are the kind of people that are "hiding" behind the 3rd party LOA, than keep that in mind when making future purchases.

Scott

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

scaygonor. what about the balls that have nine good signitures. does the ball have value or because of the phoney mantle and williams is the ball worthless. It seem to me that if a dodger ball that has phoney sigs with good ones have value why not the five hundred that has nine good signitures.

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Posted By: scgaynor

Value is determined by how much somebody is willing to pay. If somebody has a 500HR baseball with 7 good signatures and one bad signature, it is not worthless, but it is worth much less. The same is true with a Dodger Clubhouse Ball.

I just sold a 1949 Dodgers ball with all authentic signatures for over $1600 (condition was not that great). That same ball with a clubhouse Jackie Robinson might only be $900, with a clubhouse Robinson, Snider and Campanella might be $300. It just depends on how many clubhouse signatures and who they are.

Scott

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Posted By: Judge Dred

Scott,

I see your point. It would cost a lot of money to LOA each one individually. Also, how many people would want to spend the money on getting a LOA for a $10 item. My comment was based on someone that wanted to break up a lot and use the LOA. I'd be willing to bet that the LOA didn't list each autograph individually. At that point it becomes a blanket LOA that seems a bit useless (except for the purpose of selling the lot for the first time - which it was intended for in the first place). There are just so many ways it could be exploited later on. That's why I believe an LOA should be something that is individual and something that would not be easy to manipulate the wrong way.

Now, onward to Salem, Massachusetts...

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

Well the problem with the five hundred hr ball is that no real authenticator will pass it because of the forged mantle and williams. yet they will authenticate a forge dodger ball from the fiftys. It doesnt make any sense.

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Posted By: scgaynor

In a perfect world, there would be no way to manipulate the certs, but where there is a will, there is a way.

Have fun witch-hunting.

Scott

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The key is to buy your autographs from reputable and honest sellers. It's not the honest people who lie and cheat, it's the dishonest people.


Whether it's in photographs or autographs or baseball cards, do you know why I chose to buy from honest people? It's not because they never make mistakes or ship the wrong item or charge $1 too much for shipping. It's because when the honest seller says "This item was part of the Sotheby's auction lot #202" you know the item was part of the Sotheby's auction lot #202.

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Posted By: Dan

Spence was lazy in what he wrote and that was his only crime which was done five years ago. He should not have issued an LOA stating it was an authentic 'clubhouse' which still commands SOME value as opposed to a freshly scribbled on ball which are seemingly all over the place. This seller doesn't know what a clubhouse ball is because it is a 'drop off'. What's the big deal really? There are WAY bigger problems in the business than that. What about all these sellers who sell 'freshly made' forgeries or better yet, ones that get 'authenticators' who aren't exactly that to say that their items are good? Why don't we attack them?

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Posted By: Dan

Scott,

Is the Geoff Zahn index card a secreterial? I don't have exemplars. Was it obtained via the mail? Is there any corner wear? Is it mattable?



Dan

P.S War Silent Lucidity!

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Posted By: Richard Simon

What it comes down to is this. The ball was being sold in Christie's which attracts a large crowd of people who would never, ever know what the words "clubhouse version" means. They would read the sentence about all signatures being authentic and that is what would register in their minds. The crowd at Christie's does not consist of the people on this board for the most part. It is a moneyed crowd that is there for fun and to buy something that they can put on their doctor, lawyer, accountant office walls or shelves, but that has no connection to the hobby. One of those non hobbyists would easily misconstrue the COA.
The drop store selling this ball made that mistake.
The COA was poorly written, to say the least. Anyone not familair to the autograph hobby would misconstrue the wording on that COA.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

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Posted By: scgaynor

Danny (who else would be Jack Chesbro), I picked Geoff Zahn because he has special meaning to me. I literally learned to read off of Baseball Cards. My father would buy four packs a week from the drug store for me and I would read the names outloud to him and he would correct me if I pronounced the name wrong. I remember getting a Geoff Zahn card and not even knowing where to begin. On such memories is the Baseball Card hobby based.

Scott

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

I agee 100 percent.Im not just picking on Spence I think that there is a group of Authenticators out there that are total disasters. AAU Donald Fragipani Christoper Morales (the new authenticator for Coaches Corner} William Tell and the list goes on. These are the guys that say there Forensic experts. Take a look at Coaches Corner auctions it will make you sick.

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Posted By: Dan

Shelly,

You are 100% correct. I think everytime we bash a 'mistake', it gives the 'bad' authenticators and bad autograph companies who get everything failed by a legitimate authenticators...well, bullets for their weapons. Look at this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5163739459&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:US:1

Dan

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Posted By: Dan

Scott,

I couldn't agree more about the memories. I remember the smell in the air, the date (third week in May) and the aisle in which my father introduced me to baseball cards. Rackpacks, 1980 Topps. The memory I bring to the table is of an adoration to the Pirates' Omar Moreno and how these cards wouldn't grade well today as I kept them in rubber bands and tupper ware.

Dan

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Posted By: J.McMurry

"Take a look at Coaches Corner auctions it will make you sick."

BRAVO!! I've been waiting 3 years for someone in the hobby to make that statement.


I for one appreciate the fact that scgaynor and R.Simon come on this board and express their opinions and debate certain issues. I wish Jimmy Spence would too,but I can see where he might not want to spend time on here just being attacked. jmho.

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

why not other people that have been talked about have come on here and where treated with respect.

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

why not other people that have been talked about have come on here and where treated with respect.

Shelly - I'm not clear what this means.

Bill

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Posted By: Glenn

I had to read it a few times myself. I think what he meant was:

"Why not? Other people that have been talked about have come on here and were treated with respect."

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

Thanks that is what I meant. Sorry for not writeing it correctly.

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Posted By: J.McMurry

Just saying that some people would not expose themself to the possibility of being "hammered" in a public forum. Not saying thats how he feels, just saying I would understand if he did feel that way.

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Posted By: Richard Simon

James Spence's five-year deal with PSA/DNA expires this spring and the veteran dealer/authenticator appears he's not going to renew his agreement. Spence told Sweet Spot Online that the contract offered him by PSA/DNA was unacceptable and "insulting." A noncompete clause in the original contract would effectively take Spence out of the sports memorabilia business for one year, Spence said. Joe Orlando, president of PSA/DNA, told Sweet Spot it would be inappropriate for him to comment.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

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Posted By: WP

PSA is not worth a damn when it comes to vintage sigs without Spence. Any thoughts on what he might do?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I'm not entering into the big signature and authenticity debate, but I feel I should note that of the hobby 'big wigs' I have personally dealt with, I found one of the nicest and most helpful was Spence. My guess is that many others posting on the board would have a similar impression of him if they dealt with him personally.