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How can a company who bills itself as the "largest and most trusted third-party grading and authentication company in the world" and states "when you buy a PSA-graded collectible or submit an item to PSA for grading, you get the most accurately graded collectible in the hobby", plead ignorance here? If they can't identify an altered card, how can they promise what they do? A company that did that would be guilty of something, right? Or am I missing something?
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Sebie |
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Where is our resident Thing #2,
"there is a lawsuit so it must mean something! "
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"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors |
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Everyone is bringing up valid points. I just hope it doesn't tarnish the hobby any more than the grading scandal already has.
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Ron - Uncle Nacki T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector - www.youtube.com/unclenacki T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524 T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5258 COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48 Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28 NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS Polar Bear 245/250 Sovereign 460 50/52 Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34 Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11 |
#5
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It seems to me, they are simply saying that they provide "the most accurately graded collectible in the hobby". This does not mean the item is 100% accurately graded; it simply means that PSA feels that they come closest to the 100% accurate threshold. PSA could have 50% accuracy over-all. If no other TPG hits the 50% mark or higher, then PSA is correct in their assertion that they are "the most accurate". Steve
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Successful BST deals with eliotdeutsch, gonzo, jimivintage, Leon, lharris3600, markf31, Mrc32, sb1, seablaster, shammus, veloce. Current Wantlist: 1909 Obak Howard (Los Angeles) (no frame on back) 1910 E90-2 Gibson, Hyatt, Maddox |
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Query re: Para 54 (was PSA first?)
Was PSA the first card-grading company ?
I thought it was the SGC predecessor run by Dave Foreman "SCG" or something..... I used to have a T205 Jennings that was in their holder which was like an early SGC holder black.... -- It's not relevant to the merits of the complaint. I just wondered... Last edited by Misunderestimated; 02-13-2020 at 08:12 PM. |
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The problem is, exactly how does one quantify the accuracy level of a particular TPG? Who do you go to, to accomplish it? For example, in autograph collecting, Charles Hamilton was considered the foremost authenticator in the business. In sub-areas of autograph collecting, there are certain authenticators who specialize in signatures; i.e., in astronaut autographs, Steve Zarelli is probably the #1 authenticator. In fine art, there are people who are considered the foremost experts on a particular artist, say van Gogh or Rembrandt. Who is the #1 card grader/authenticator, who could determine, to a level that is "legally sufficient" in a court of law, PSA's accuracy compared to other TPGs. Without a legally sufficient "expert witness", I just don't see PSA's claim of being the "most accurate", being a problem for them. It is essentially just their opinion. Also, to what level will a court of law require, for alleged proof that the card shown in "before" picture A, is actually the exact same card shown in "after" picture B. We all have our opinions and feelings about all the cards reported/"outed" in this ongoing scandal; but we all know that pictures can be manipulated. The same card can look completely different in scans taken with different scanners, depending on the individual scanner's settings. We also know that the card stock is not always "perfect"; there are usually defects in the stock. Printing methods used for a particular card can show recurring identical defects in a particular card; i.e., 1976 Topps George Brett & 1978 Topps Molitor/Trammell. The simple fact that two different pictures of cards that show the same perceived defect(s), show cards that have different grades, but otherwise cannot be differentiated, does not mean that the cards in the two pictures, are actually the same exact card. Steve
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Successful BST deals with eliotdeutsch, gonzo, jimivintage, Leon, lharris3600, markf31, Mrc32, sb1, seablaster, shammus, veloce. Current Wantlist: 1909 Obak Howard (Los Angeles) (no frame on back) 1910 E90-2 Gibson, Hyatt, Maddox Last edited by Steve D; 02-13-2020 at 10:31 PM. |
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A few thoughts
1 - At the very least this action will hopefully make the whole "slabgate" more visible to more people - we should all forward to local, regional and national media - some of them will pick it up.
2 - This will necessitate $$$ coming out of the pockets of some who have been lining their pockets for if nothing else their defense. 3 - Attorney question - what is the yardstick here - "preponderance of evidence", "beyond a reasonable doubt", or something else? 4 - Presuming something short of beyond a reasonable doubt - while I believe some of the accusations although true will be difficult to prove - others - not so much - The most glaring thing to me is that a company (PSA) who's underlying foundation is its self proclaimed ability to identify cards that have been altered, their charging fees to do so, customers reliance on the same and PSA's clear incompetence (in a best case scenario) in doing so! 5 - Even if some of what has been alleged is proven, it will be a good thing. |
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The 40's-some more recent date depending on the manufacturer, those fiber defects are like a fingerprint. I'd think that if someone had an altered card, physically entered as evidence (Hoping I got the term right there) And the before scan, that would be conclusive. The person who made the before scan would have no reason to add portions of the card that were never there AND to digitally fake the fiber aspects of the cardstock. Many of the earlier modern cards were serially numbered from the factory, and while the look and colors can vary, it's not likely that the amount of picture visible along an edge would change based on the scanner. That's what the before and after scans show, things like the sole of a shoe with some sliver of background between it and the edge of the card then later that shoe on the same card touching or partly cut away by the edge. And again, there's no reason for the before scan to have been faked. Some show slight corner flaws, and the after doesn't. Why would a seller add fake wear to a card they were selling? The simple answer is that they wouldn't. |
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It's not just recurring print flaws, as he stated. It's the matching paper fibers and unique characteristics that are 100% impossible to duplicate. Undeniable and indisputable evidence of "before & after" alteration. TPG and PSA apologists need to find a new argument. Maybe they can dig very deep to find a card or two that they can claim isn't a match. But that does not dispel or diminish the thousands upon thousands that are. |
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What I was trying to point out in my earlier post, is that it might be/could be/probably will be, difficult to prove to a court of law, to their legal requirement, that multiple pictures of a (non-serial-numbered) card, do in-fact, show the exact same card. I'm sure the court will require a subject-matter "expert witness" (probably a paper expert), to testify to that fact. I simply wonder who that "expert witness" would be. I guess you can call me a pessimist. I have read several of the BO Forum posts, and agree that many of them seem to be correct in their assertions. There are also some that seem to be, to me anyway, less certain. I have not read all the posts, as there are too many of them, and I have neither the time, patience, or energy to attempt to do so. Steve
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Successful BST deals with eliotdeutsch, gonzo, jimivintage, Leon, lharris3600, markf31, Mrc32, sb1, seablaster, shammus, veloce. Current Wantlist: 1909 Obak Howard (Los Angeles) (no frame on back) 1910 E90-2 Gibson, Hyatt, Maddox |
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Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk |
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The defense of and excuses for PSA here are not just shocking, but I'm guessing self serving. They've rendered everyone's collection suspect by not fulfilling the promise they made to collectors...and I think a lot of people don't want to believe that.
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I think PSA's three things in grading are: 1) Authenticity (the card is not a reprint or counterfeit, the card is correctly identifed). SGC, Beckett and PSA are reliable at this. 2) The card is not altered (or is altered and is dentified as such on the label) 3) Condition grade. Obviously, 2 and 3 are related, as only unaltered cards get a number grade and altered cards get a grade of AUTH. If you want to combine and 3 into 2, that is fine. I, and many others think, that condition grade number is by far the least important of the three for graders. If graders can identify the card as authentic and unaltered, grade then is a matter of opinion (and, as resubmissions demonstrate, variation even with the same grader) and many collectors can make their own assessment. And if a grader can't authenticate or identify alterations, the assigning of conditions number is meaningless and irrelevant, as #3 is premised on, and comes after, #1 and #2. PSA advertises and promotes and charges big fees that their services are for #1-3, so if they have mass problems doing #1-2 (and, thus, #3), complaints or lawsuits may be warranted whether or not there were bad or deceitful intentions by the company. Incompetency-- that they didn't or even couldn't do their charged for services-- in and of itself can be reason enough. Obviously, some sellers were doing more than incompetence (in fact, they were very competent until they were discovered), but intentionally working to get cards misidentified and misgraded. That's when criminal charges can get involved. Last edited by drcy; 02-14-2020 at 12:41 PM. |
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The point is, it seems, they're promising something they're not capable of delivering. Their own grading standards state...PSA will not grade cards that bear evidence of trimming, re-coloring, restoration, or any other forms of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity. From this it can be inferred that every collector who's ever rec'd a number grade from PSA expected the card to be unaltered...and therefore authentic. To me this isn't open to interpretation. An authenticator who can't tell if a card is original, isn't worth anything to me. What would you pay them for? A plastic case?
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Collecting vintage soccer Collecting pre-war baseball Collecting vintage horse racing (wanted: tobacco cards and pins) Set in progress: 1994 Upper Deck World Cup autographed Set in progress: 1938 Konig Fussball Sub set in progress: 1910-12 Sweet Caporal pins - Philadelphia Athletics - 4 of 11 complete (need: Baker, Murphy, Plank, Krause, Davis) Successful transactions: aro13 edsj commishbob jpaol99 Gonzo, abroom Brianp-beme Dboneesq Chris Counts xplainer Bobbyw8469 |
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