Who is the greatest player of the Pre-War Era?

[Eric72]

Sorry..trying this again.

[RCMcKenzie]

Purely for the sake of argument, I was going to say Cy Young, and went to baseball reference to find a stat to back up my claim. This was the first stat I looked at, the all-time WAR stat (Wins against replacement), it does not support my argument, but almost did.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...R_career.shtml

[Eric72]

Thanks for the early votes, everybody. I am going to give this a few bumps to push it past the earlier thread...which did not include the poll.

My apologies for those who posted there. I tried to get the poll linked onto this thread. For some reason, it did not take.

Best,

Eric

[ethicsprof]

greatest player if we're talkin' stats and nothing else.

all the best,
barry

[Tobacco&Gum]

Hammerin' Hank missed the list?

Even if you take away ALL of his homers, he still has over 3000 hits!

Not sure if he's the best (I voted Ruth), but Hank needs to be considered IMHO.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by ethicsprof

greatest player if we're talkin' stats and nothing else.

all the best,
barry

Barry,

Please accept my sincerest thanks for you weighing in here.

Best Regards,

Eric

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Tobacco&Gum

Hammerin' Hank missed the list?

Even if you take away ALL of his homers, he still has over 3000 hits!

Not sure if he's the best (I voted Ruth), but Hank needs to be considered IMHO.

Vince,

Agreed...Aaron was one helluva a ballplayer.

Best,

Eric

[itjclarke]

Ruth is a no doubter in my mind, no one ever single handedly changed the game like he did... maybe in any sport? Wilt Chamberlain maybe close? The pitching record and WS pitching records are just icing on the cake. Cobb 1a by himself.. then other top 10-20 types like Wagner, Mays (maybe best 5 tooler ever), WaJo, Matty, Hornsby, Williams, Musial, Speaker, E Collins, Aaron, Bonds, etc in a 2 category (2nd tier not in any particular order, and not complete in any way)

[Sean]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Ruth is a no doubter in my mind, no one ever single handedly changed the game like he did... maybe in any sport? Wilt Chamberlain maybe close? The pitching record and WS pitching records are just icing on the cake. Cobb 1a by himself.. then other top 10-20 types like Wagner, Mays (maybe best 5 tooler ever), WaJo, Matty, Hornsby, Williams, Musial, Speaker, E Collins, Aaron, Bonds, etc in a 2 category (2nd tier not in any particular order, and not complete in any way)

Not only is Ruth #1, but whoever you put second (Cobb, Mays, or Wagner), the #2 player will be closer to the #20 player than to Ruth.

[Shoele$$]

What always struck me about Ruth was when he was pitching, he had a fairly slender athletic body that was better suited for being an all around baseball player with base running and stealing in mind. Then when he became a hitter and switched to the outfield, his body turned into a slow, sloppy, overweight pitcher's body. That extra weight did probably help with power behind his swing, but I just wonder how good he could have been had he possessed the body and speed to be an all around ball player like Cobb and Wagner. Hmmm....

[doug.goodman]

We all know all about Ruth hitting a few homers, having a .342 lifetime average, a couple other things at the plate, all of which make him a candidate, based on hitting.

When you add in his 2.28 lifetime ERA with 97 pitching victories, including his 3-0 record in the World Series (with one of those WS wins being a 14 inning complete game), are we really still thinking about anybody else?

Doug

[drc]

I'd vote but I don't see Sammy Sosa on the list. My God, people, he and McGwire saved baseball!

[Zone91]

I am going to have to go with Willie Mays!! I was going to say Mantle....but I am biased now that I own his ''rookie'' card...lolllll!!!

[drc]

Okay, I'll come clean. I vote for me twice under 'None of the Above.'

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

What always struck me about Ruth was when he was pitching, he had a fairly slender athletic body that was better suited for being an all around baseball player with base running and stealing in mind. Then when he became a hitter and switched to the outfield, his body turned into a slow, sloppy, overweight pitcher's body. That extra weight did probably help with power behind his swing, but I just wonder how good he could have been had he possessed the body and speed to be an all around ball player like Cobb and Wagner. Hmmm....

He would have been a BEAST. He clearly had superhuman hand eye coordination and ridiculous upper body strength. He hit 714 and over .340, while basically walking toward the mound as the pitch approached and swinging a 40+ oz bat. I could maybe do that in a batting cage, but facing different pitchers/pitches, different speeds and still making those moving parts work?!? That said, there's no doubt in my mind he'd have outdone himself had be maintained a more athletic body type. He'd still have that ridiculous hand/eye but would also be fast enough to leg out some more soft infield grounds (imagine how deep infields must have played him).. maybe turn some 450 ft gappers into triples/HR's... probably been a bette outfielder with an already great arm... and maybe extended his career and peak production a little longer (even though there was little drop off until the very end).

[CW]

What? No Sadaharu Oh?

As much as I love Cobb's tenacity and approach to the game, I gotta give this one to the Babe.

[deadballfreaK]

I hate voting for a Yankee, but gotta be Ruth.

[triwak]

Originally Posted by Zone91

I was going to say Mantle....but I am biased now that I own his ''rookie'' card...lolllll!!!

Hold on! Dunlop isn't listed in the poll.

[mikemcgrail]

George Herman by a mile

Honus is for me number 2

[39special]

I would say Willie Mays.

[barrysloate]

Frank Baker made the cut, Willie Mays and Hank Aaron didn't. Hmmm....

[bobbyw8469]

Mantle played hurt most of his career and still put up awesome numbers. Can you imagine what he would have done had he actually been healthy?

[Tao_Moko]

It's too hard to argue with Ruth as a player and his impact on the game. I didn't see any mention of Rose who was the most dynamic player I ever saw play. I very unfortunately had to live Portsmouth Ohio for a few years as a kid and though I wasn't a Red's fan(having moved from Illinois) it was hard to overlook his superiority on the field. I really enjoyed watching him play. Nolan Ryan was another beast of a player that when you watched him perform live just seemed to control the game.

[lharri3600]

Let us not forget The Say Hey Kid. Remember, he spent some time in the Army!!
I believe he would have made the 700 club if not for the time in the Army.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Frank Baker made the cut, Willie Mays and Hank Aaron didn't. Hmmm....

Good morning, Barry.

I took my Pre-War starting nine, added, "none of the above" as the tenth choice, and posted the thread...nothing more, nothing less.

Anyway, it seems pretty clear...that George Herman Ruth fellow would be crushing the competition, no matter who it was.

Thanks for weighing in and have a wonderful weekend.

Best Regards,

Eric

[AMBST95]

Originally Posted by Zone91

I am going to have to go with Willie Mays!! I was going to say Mantle....but I am biased now that I own his ''rookie'' card...lolllll!!!

[rcp1936]

Well I read that Branch Rickey who saw all the great ones play up to and including Aaron Mays Mantle Williams Musial said that if he was starting a team
the first player he would pick was Wagner

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by rcp1936

Well I read that Branch Rickey who saw all the great ones play up to and including Aaron Mays Mantle Williams Musial said that if he was starting a team
the first player he would pick was Wagner

To be fair Wagner is also almost always up there with Cobb and Ruth as top 3 players of all time.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I am extremely surprised, more or less dissappointed with this 'list'.

You have Hornsby (not even close to top 10), same for Jackson, Baker isn't even top 30, Josh Gibson (come on), and no Bonds, or Mays?...interesting...is this like the greatest pre-war player of all-time? If so, then your list is justified.

[Brendan]

Well, there's really not much doubt in my mind that it's Ruth. Over the years, I've found the primary reasons some people disagree with this is:

• They don't like his homerun, power hitting style of play. Furthermore, all the photos they see of him is when he's old and out of shape and they discount him because "no way some old fat guy can be the greatest player ever."
• They claim he wasn't an all-around player. Well, call me crazy, but I never saw Willie Mays go 94-46 as a pitcher.
• Because he is always assumed to be the best player ever by the majority of credible baseball analysts and historians today, people pick someone else to be a contrarian and/or unique. Rather than just mindlessly following the pack, they bring up some other player who had a great career. Issue is, these careers simply don't compare to Ruth's.
• They make some excuse for some older player about them not playing in the live ball era.

As far as the best pitcher ever, I personally go with Cy Young. People seem to discount him for some reason, but when you look at his numbers, they're just incredible. I'm sure Walter Johnson was a great pitcher, but in a direct comparison, Cy Young has got to be the pick.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Brendan

Well, there's really not much doubt in my mind that it's Ruth. Over the years, I've found the primary reasons some people disagree with this is:

• They don't like his homerun, power hitting style of play. Furthermore, all the photos they see of him is when he's old and out of shape and they discount him because "no way some old fat guy can be the greatest player ever."
• Because he is always assumed to be the best player ever by the majority of credible baseball analysts and historians today, people pick someone else to be a contrarian and/or unique. Rather than just mindlessly following the pack, they bring up some other player who had a great career. Issue is, these careers simply don't compare to Ruth's.
• They make some excuse for some older player about them not playing in the live ball era.

As far as the best pitcher ever, I personally go with Cy Young. People seem to discount him for some reason, but when you look at his numbers, they're just incredible. I'm sure Walter Johnson was a great pitcher, but in a direct comparison, Cy Young has got to be the pick.

Ughhh, not worth arguing again...

[CMIZ5290]

Why is Frank Baker even on the ballot?

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Ughhh, not worth arguing again...

Seems like that's kind of the point of every "Who is the greatest player ever thread?" What purpose does a thread like this serve, other than to open up discussions and arguments about who the greatest player ever is?

[bbcard1]

Babe Ruth did a grave disservice to the game by making this argument not even close...it is only even an interesting argument if you either introduce a caveat that the game was for some reason different in that day...no air travel, no black/international players...or you completely disregard that he had several years at a hall of fame pace as a pitcher before becoming a revolutionary hitter.

Maybe the best thing about him is that he also had a couple of off seasons and failures on and off the field. Fully a superstar and fully human at the same time.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

Babe Ruth did a grave disservice to the game by making this argument not even close...it is only even an interesting argument if you either introduce a caveat that the game was for some reason different in that day...no air travel, no black/international players...or you completely disregard that he had several years at a hall of fame pace as a pitcher before becoming a revolutionary hitter.

Maybe the best thing about him is that he also had a couple of off seasons and failures on and off the field. Fully a superstar and fully human at the same time.

+1....Didn't he hit 3 homeruns in one of his last games as a Boston Brave? He also still to this day holds records as a pitcher.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I took my Pre-War starting nine, added, "none of the above" as the tenth choice, and posted the thread...nothing more, nothing less.

And I did this because the noise from a few of the other threads was benumbing. Sorry, guys...guess I zoned out.

Anyways, carry on. And have a great weekend.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Brendan

Seems like that's kind of the point of every "Who is the greatest player ever thread?" What purpose does a thread like this serve, other than to open up discussions and arguments about who the greatest player ever is?

Because if you do a search, there are at least 10 other threads in the past year with this same argument, heck, I even started one. My vote is Bonds, and you can read my opinions on that in the many many other threads.

[auggiedoggy]

Anyone who smoked too much, drank too much, partied too much and rarely, if ever, worked out and could still put up the numbers Ruth did deserves the honour!

[insidethewrapper]

I'll go with the BBWAA who voted for the first class of HOF'ers in 1936. This was right after Ruth's career and since everyone hated Cobb (according to current belief, though he helped a lot of players with fiancial problems). The top 3 vote getters from the 226 writers were : 1) Cobb 222, 2) Ruth 215 and 3) Wagner 215. These voters were from the same era. Hard to believe with Cobb's reputation, he still received the most votes. He must have been "one hell of a player ". He gets my vote.

[g_vezina_c55]

My vote : Ruth

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Eric72

And I did this because the noise from a few of the other threads was benumbing. Sorry, guys...guess I zoned out.

Anyways, carry on. And have a great weekend.

Appreciate your effort Eric.. it was a nice little baseball centric break from the other things you refer to.

I'm still Babe all the way regardless of the original baseball writers vote. At the time of his HOF induction, I think there must still have been quite a few crotchety old school sports writers/purists who'd grown up on dead ball era and tactics.. and who preferred the "science" of Cobb's game as opposed to the brawn of Ruth's. Babe only won 1 MVP during his career, which is nuts considering he lead the league in HR's and had 13 wins in the same year, and broke the single season HR record 4 times in his career!! (worth noting Cobb only won 1 MVP too).

In 1936, baseball had still been a dead ball game for the majority of its history, and what Ruth had done was probably still unsettling to some. As years/decades/eras have gone by since, we see even more clearly that Ruth is the greatest vehicle of change the game has ever seen (except maybe J Robinson for totally different reasons).. and it's greatest/most influential player ever.

Cobb is still my untied 1a.

[sycks22]

For those people who say Young is the best fail to realize that not even his peers / baseball voters thought he was that good with receiving 76% in the HOF vote. If you throw out Young's 511 wins (which he pitched the most innings / started the most games and completed the most games) he wasn't better than Matty or Johnson of that era. He averaged 111 k's per season (I realize it's the dead ball era), but he never had more than 210 which Johnson topping 300 twice. Johnson pitched for a far worse team and had a lower era / more shut outs / more k's / over 2,000 less hits allowed. He is the Pete Rose of the dead ball era of someone that was good, but his numbers are more of a factor that he pitched more than anyone, than the fact that he was dominate.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by sycks22

For those people who say Young is the best fail to realize that not even his peers / baseball voters thought he was that good with receiving 76% in the HOF vote.... his numbers are more of a factor that he pitched more than anyone, than the fact that he was dominate.

He also pitched for better teams than Johnson did.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by sycks22

Johnson pitched for a far worse team and had a lower era / more shut outs / more k's / over 2,000 less hits allowed. .

I agree, I think WaJo is the unparalelled pitcher of his era, and all who'd come before him. I'm a big Matty fan and collector, but I also don't think he really compares with WaJo's sheer power. All are amazing, Matty/Alexander's numbers are incredible, and Young's durability and WHIP's are nuts.. but WaJo struck out lots of guys in an era when batters rarely struck out. Imagine striking out 300+ when everyone you're facing has strikeout rates like Tony Gwynn or Ichiro

[tiger8mush]

% of ballots on first ever HOF vote in 1936:
Cobb 98.2%
Ruth 95.1%
Wagner 95.1%
Matty 90.7%
WoJo 83.6%

Today, many say Ruth is the clear-cut best ever. 80 years ago, the voters didn't see it that way.

[CMIZ5290]

Again, I must ask, why in the world is Homerun Baker listed in the poll? For that matter, if there were 50 players listed, why would he be one of them??

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

% of ballots on first ever HOF vote in 1936:
Cobb 98.2%
Ruth 95.1%
Wagner 95.1%
Matty 90.7%
WoJo 83.6%

Today, many say Ruth is the clear-cut best ever. 80 years ago, the voters didn't see it that way.

Per my earlier post, I think the bias of some writers may have affected this HOF vote.. Ruth and his style of hitting were the biggest jolt the game had ever seen (and has ever seen since). After Ruth, offense became more of a station to station, wait for the 3 run HR style of play, which was an affront to those who'd loved the strategic bunt, steal, squeeze style of small ball that preceded him. Ruth broke the HR record 4 times! and won only 1 MVP. I've gotta think there was some old school writer's bias there.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Again, I must ask, why in the world is Homerun Baker listed in the poll? For that matter, if there were 50 players listed, why would he be one of them??

FWIW, the all-time WAR list ranks Baker here....

153 Andruw Jones
154 Frank Baker
155 David Cone
156 Joe Jackson

[packs]

I don't see how anyone could not answer Babe Ruth. It doesn't matter how the sports writers voted. There has only been one player in the history of the game to single handedly outhit an entire league. That player is Babe Ruth.

As talented and great as Cobb was, he didn't change the game. He only did things better than the players around him.

But Ruth did change the game, and every player after him has been trying to live up to what he did.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Again, I must ask, why in the world is Homerun Baker listed in the poll? For that matter, if there were 50 players listed, why would he be one of them??

Hi Kevin,

I understand why he may seem out of place. As for answering your question, please see the posts below.

Best Regards,

Eric

Originally Posted by Eric72

I took my Pre-War starting nine, added, "none of the above" as the tenth choice, and posted the thread...nothing more, nothing less.

Originally Posted by Eric72

And I did this because the noise from a few of the other threads was benumbing. Sorry, guys...guess I zoned out.

Anyways, carry on. And have a great weekend.