Roberto Clemente Banned in Florida

[BobC]

Interesting development.

https://www.axios.com/2023/02/10/flo...o-clemente-crt

[BobbyStrawberry]

What isn't banned in Florida these days?

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's pathetic.

[irv]

The Liberal funded media making a mountain out of a molehill again.
Gee, I wonder what popular politician resides in Florida that is driving the Democrats nuts because he is trying to bring some normalcy back to schools and some common sense everywhere else?

"According to Duvall County Schools, the book was pulled as part of its effort to do the state require review of books. The district said all books must be certified by a media specialist"
https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/n...hool-district/

[D. Bergin]

LOL “normalcy”

[Peter_Spaeth]

A media specialist. LOL.

[irv]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

LOL “normalcy”

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A media specialist. LOL.

It's real easy to see Pete, if one chooses to open their eyes, but carry on if you wish to remain ignorant instead.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by irv

It's real easy to see Pete, if one chooses to open their eyes, but carry on if you wish to remain ignorant instead.

Oh OK you convinced me.

[Casey2296]

Government "thought police" whether coming from the left or the right is never a good idea. The sooner we get liberal and conservative agendas out of schools the better.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Oh OK you convinced me.

Damn.
I wish I was able to do that much earlier before you foolishly decided to get vaccinated.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Government "thought police" whether coming from the left or the right is never a good idea. The sooner we get liberal and conservative agendas out of schools the better.

As the country continues to stratify it's only going to get worse.

[packs]

What are some aspects of Clemente’s life that would be problematic for a child to learn about?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

What are some aspects of Clemente’s life that would be problematic for a child to learn about?

I think the reason it had to be reviewed were passages suggesting he was a victim of racism.

[irv]

Originally Posted by packs

What are some aspects of Clemente’s life that would be problematic for a child to learn about?

Nothing, zero, zilch. Read post #4. "All books" are being reviewed but like I said, the Dems and their funded media will stoop to lowest level they can in order to make the Cons and Desantis look bad.

[Peter_Spaeth]

All books have not been removed though for this review, have they? That someone would even need to closely review a biography of Clemente to see if it was lawful is a disgrace in and of itself. And who decides what discussions of race are OK and which aren't, a media specialist? Give me a fucking break. This is America. Or used to be. Stop making it sound neutral and innocuous, it isn't.

Totalitarianism always starts with censorship. And as Phil said it goes both ways, cancel culture from the left has gone way too far too IMO.

I am fine keeping sexually explicit material out of the schools. I am fine waiting for kids to be a little older before getting into sexual and gender identity. But banning books for what ultimately is a political value judgment? Noooooooooo thank you.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

All books have not been removed though for this review, have they? And who decides what discussions of race are OK and which aren't, a media specialist? Give me a fucking break. This is America. Or used to be. Stop making it sound neutral and innocuous, it isn't.

Totalitarianism always starts with censorship. And as Phil said it goes both ways, cancel culture from the left has gone way too far too IMO.

I am fine keeping sexually explicit material out of the schools. I am fine waiting for kids to be a little older before getting into sexual and gender identity. But banning books for what ultimately is a political value judgment? Noooooooooo thank you.

You've never had a more totalitarian President and govt than what you currently have now.
It is no different up here with Trudeau at the helm. Like I've said numerous times in various threads, the Liberals are all in bed together worldwide. Cancel culture, censorship, the media in their back pockets, etc, etc, etc. All Liberalism, imo.

It amazes me how many have forgotten history and I'm afraid we are going to repeat it.
WW2 was won but the dream never died with it. It is still an agenda and they are not even trying to hide it anymore.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dale, I don't like it any more from the left than from the right.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dale, I don't like it any more from the left than from the right.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree but it is, by far, imo, more of a left agenda than it is a right one.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dale, I don't like it any more from the left than from the right.

Originally Posted by irv

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree but it is, by far, imo, more of a left agenda than it is a right one.

You won't have to worry about either left or right soon. Our alien overlords are going to make themselves known in the near future. Then we will have real problems. I have this on good authority. I seen it on both Facebook and Twitter.

[irv]

Originally Posted by bnorth

You won't have to worry about either left or right soon. Our alien overlords are going to make themselves known in the near future. Then we will have real problems. I have this on good authority. I seen it on both Facebook and Twitter.

We're having an adult conversation here, Ben. I know it's hard for you to grasp and understand but why don't you go grab yourself a juice box and a fruit rollup then sit back and try to learn something for a change.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by irv

We're having an adult conversation here, Ben. I know it's hard for you to grasp and understand but why don't you go grab yourself a juice box and a fruit rollup then sit back and try to learn something for a change.

I learn something new with every one of your amazing posts.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by irv

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree but it is, by far, imo, more of a left agenda than it is a right one.

I am probably on balance a little to the right of center especially these days and I do like some of what DeSantis has done, and maybe that's why seeing him stoop to the level of unnecessary censorship bothers me a great deal. IMO it's just a bad precedent and the non-Trump Republicans should be above such things.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am probably on balance a little to the right of center especially these days and I do like some of what DeSantis has done, and maybe that's why seeing him stoop to the level of unnecessary censorship bothers me a great deal. IMO it's just a bad precedent and the non-Trump Republicans should be above such things.

I don't think that genie is going back in the bottle. Straight up lunacy is now widely accepted as a legitimate political position. That may change over time but I don't see it going away anytime soon.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am probably on balance a little to the right of center especially these days and I do like some of what DeSantis has done.

.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am probably on balance a little to the right of center especially these days and I do like some of what DeSantis has done, and maybe that's why seeing him stoop to the level of unnecessary censorship bothers me a great deal. IMO it's just a bad precedent and the non-Trump Republicans should be above such things.

I honestly don't think he is stooping to unnecessary censorship, he is just making sure, imo, no race baiting, critical race theory, gender reassignment info, LGBTQ info, among other things, are in these grade school books?

I am pretty sure he is an advocate for free speech as well but he knows/recognizes being a certain age to be able to understand such things, especially of a sexual nature, is important too.
These drag queens and the like reading and dancing for these toddlers is something I never imagined would ever happen. It's insanity, and guess what party is pushing it?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I would not give a public official authority to decide what is or is not race baiting. If a kids' book on Roberto Clemente is under scrutiny, something is wrong with that picture. BTW I went to school with Kim Crenshaw, credited with being one of the founders of critical race theory.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by bnorth

You won't have to worry about either left or right soon. Our alien overlords are going to make themselves known in the near future. Then we will have real problems. I have this on good authority. I seen it on both Facebook and Twitter.

Will they be releasing a Green Refractor insert set before they take over the world?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Will they be releasing a Green Refractor insert set before they take over the world?

The whole 1962 set will be reprised.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The whole 1962 set will be reprised.

I hope not the only uglier set is the wood grain 87 Topps set.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

All books have not been removed though for this review, have they? And who decides what discussions of race are OK and which aren't, a media specialist? Give me a fucking break. This is America. Or used to be. Stop making it sound neutral and innocuous, it isn't.

Totalitarianism always starts with censorship. And as Phil said it goes both ways, cancel culture from the left has gone way too far too IMO.

No, they are looking at every book/title, but not actually pulling every book from the shelves. Here's another story with a little more detail than an earlier, less detailed story referenced, that others could then use to twist and spin how they wanted.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/...ools-rcna70081

They are going through and looking at titles first apparently, to then see if the books can possibly have some topics they feel are not age appropriate or otherwise unallowable for students under enacted Florida state standards, and if any questions, pulling them from the shelves for "further review". In other words, no K through 3rd grade books can discuss gender identity or sexual orientation, no public grade school books can teach critical race theory, which may discuss or examine systemic racism in the U.S., and books may not include references to pornography and discrimination. The Clemente book was one (of between 100-200) that was specifically pulled for "further review" (ie: it is currently banned), while approximately 2,800 other book titles were already passed so far and not ever pulled or banned. They have around 1.5 million book titles in total in the Duval County public school's library system to eventually be reviewed apparently, and they have hired 52 certified media specialists to do the review. None of the other remaining books that have not yet been looked at by the media specialists have apparently been specifically pulled or banned yet either. If nothing else, were I a taxpayer in Duval county, I'd like to know how much of my tax money was being wasted on these 52 specialists rather than going towards actual education and other more critical school district needs.

In the case of the Clemente book, it apparently talks about the racism and discrimination he faced while playing in the U.S., and apparently the State of Florida doesn't want public school students to hear about the racist treatment someone like him received through the public schools. Makes perfect sense as a lot of states, especially Southern ones, back in Clemente's day supported and upheld Jim Crow and other racist laws and rules. Such states likely don't want to admit and let their kids learn what effing POS's they were back then by allowing such crap to happen. At least not if they can help it.

[BobC]

Double post.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I hope not the only uglier set is the wood grain 87 Topps set.

I mean the Mars Attacks set.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

No, they are looking at every book/title, but not actually pulling every book from the shelves. Here's another story with a little more detail than an earlier, less detailed story referenced, that others could then use to twist and spin how they wanted.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/...ools-rcna70081

They are going through and looking at titles first apparently, to then see if the books can possibly have some topics they feel are not age appropriate or otherwise unallowable for students under enacted Florida state standards, and if any questions, pulling them from the shelves for "further review". In other words, no K through 3rd grade books can discuss gender identity or sexual orientation, no public grade school books can teach critical race theory, which may discuss or examine systemic racism in the U.S., and books may not include references to pornography and discrimination. The Clemente book was one (of between 100-200) that was specifically pulled for "further review" (ie: it is currently banned), while approximately 2,800 other book titles were already passed so far and not ever pulled or banned. They have around 1.5 million book titles in total in the Duval County public school's library system to eventually be reviewed apparently, and they have hired 52 certified media specialists to do the review. None of the other remaining books that have not yet been looked at by the media specialists have apparently been specifically pulled or banned yet either. If nothing else, were I a taxpayer in Duval county, I'd like to know how much of my tax money was being wasted on these 52 specialists rather than going towards actual education and other more critical school district needs.

In the case of the Clemente book, it apparently talks about the racism and discrimination he faced while playing in the U.S., and apparently the State of Florida doesn't want public school students to hear about the racist treatment someone like him received through the public schools. Makes perfect sense as a lot of states, especially Southern ones, back in Clemente's day supported and upheld Jim Crow and other racist laws and rules. Such states likely don't want to admit and let their kids learn what effing POS's they were back then by allowing such crap to happen. At least not if they can help it.

He who controls the past controls the present.

[G1911]

Sometimes it helps to remember that what politicians (for or against a bill) and the media say are not really true. The wonderful thing about legislation is that it is all documentary, there is an actual text of the bill and nothing not in that text is in the bill. It's an issue that can be entirely resolved by looking at the document. What is actually in a law that is passed and what everyone is screeching about are often very, very different.

The text of the bill is only 496 lines, it’s not one of the thousand page confusing ones that is a genuine pain to decipher. The actual law is here: https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bil...ext/Filed/HTML. If you are really lazy, 51-78 are a pretty good TL;DR of the thesis.

It does not discriminate between races in any way, it sets a standard for all that is exactly the same. It says that one cannot teach that a race is morally superior to another, that an individual is inherently racist because of their race, that moral character is determined by the color of their skin, that a person deserves to be discriminated against because of the actions of people of the same skin color in the past who have nothing to do with them, that a person should feel guilt, anguish or discomfort because of their race.

It does not, in any way, “force schools and libraries to remove literature about people of color or with LGBTQ themes.” Not only is this a complete lie, the bill specifically states that schools are required to teach:

“167 The history of African Americans, including the history
168 of African peoples before the political conflicts that led to
169 the development of slavery, the passage to America, the
170 enslavement experience, abolition, and the contributions of
171 African Americans to society. Instructional materials shall
172 include the contributions of African Americans to American
173 society.”

This, of course, is the exact opposite of what this article and so many others are saying. “Certified”, “media”, and “specialist” are three words that never appear in the bill anywhere in any context whatsoever.

Obviously, a book celebrating Roberto Clemente is not banned, unless it argues that Clemente was morally superior to others because of his skin color (what we would call racist if it was about a white male). It’s a smart move to do this though, people are by and large not going to read the actual bill or do any research whatsoever, they’ll just follow whatever articles that preach their views to them say without any inquiry. Announcing they’re pulling an unobjectionable book that obviously is not banned by this law is just optics politics. It’s rage bait for their base, regardless of how absurd it is on even cursory inspection.

People should actually read the bill instead of the clickbait articles before they rage. One can certainly for or against the law, but one should actually look at it first. That's a probably a hot take in 2023.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The whole 1962 set will be reprised.

I would think they'd reissue the scarce 1947 regional issue with the Roswell backstamp, maybe add a weather balloon relic insert.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He who controls the past controls the present.

Also, history is written by the winners!

[egri]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I hope not the only uglier set is the wood grain 87 Topps set.

Ok, now this thread is getting controversial!

[irv]

Originally Posted by G1911

Sometimes it helps to remember that what politicians (for or against a bill) and the media say are not really true. The wonderful thing about legislation is that it is all documentary, there is an actual text of the bill and nothing not in that text is in the bill. It's an issue that can be entirely resolved by looking at the document. What is actually in a law that is passed and what everyone is screeching about are often very, very different.

The text of the bill is only 496 lines, it’s not one of the thousand page confusing ones that is a genuine pain to decipher. The actual law is here: https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bil...ext/Filed/HTML. If you are really lazy, 51-78 are a pretty good TL;DR of the thesis.

It does not discriminate between races in any way, it sets a standard for all that is exactly the same. It says that one cannot teach that a race is morally superior to another, that an individual is inherently racist because of their race, that moral character is determined by the color of their skin, that a person deserves to be discriminated against because of the actions of people of the same skin color in the past who have nothing to do with them, that a person should feel guilt, anguish or discomfort because of their race.

It does not, in any way, “force schools and libraries to remove literature about people of color or with LGBTQ themes.” Not only is this a complete lie, the bill specifically states that schools are required to teach:

“167 The history of African Americans, including the history
168 of African peoples before the political conflicts that led to
169 the development of slavery, the passage to America, the
170 enslavement experience, abolition, and the contributions of
171 African Americans to society. Instructional materials shall
172 include the contributions of African Americans to American
173 society.”

This, of course, is the exact opposite of what this article and so many others are saying. “Certified”, “media”, and “specialist” are three words that never appear in the bill anywhere in any context whatsoever.

Obviously, a book celebrating Roberto Clemente is not banned, unless it argues that Clemente was morally superior to others because of his skin color (what we would call racist if it was about a white male). It’s a smart move to do this though, people are by and large not going to read the actual bill or do any research whatsoever, they’ll just follow whatever articles that preach their views to them say without any inquiry. Announcing they’re pulling an unobjectionable book that obviously is not banned by this law is just optics politics. It’s rage bait for their base, regardless of how absurd it is on even cursory inspection.

People should actually read the bill instead of the clickbait articles before they rage. One can certainly for or against the law, but one should actually look at it first. That's a probably a hot take in 2023.

It still amazes me what some people will believe just because the media told them so.
I wonder how many still believe Jan 6th was an actual insurrection?
I wonder how many still believe the Russian Collusion narrative?
Trump called Neo-Nazi's fine people?
The Steele Dossier?
Mostly peaceful protests?
Hunter's laptop was Russian disinformation.
The FBI, CIA and DOJ are honest and unbiased?
It goes on and on.
https://twitter.com/RepStefanik/stat...I4sjgA26s%3D19

[Belfast1933]

Am I the only one who really hates when politics enters Net54 chats? This is hobby is one of my favorite escape from some of the world's ugly realities...

But then I tune into threads like this one and get to see the same vile talk and opinions here and honestly, it impacts my willingness to interact with some member/posters.

It's too bad - like others, I tune into "new posts" to see what great new hobby talks may have started. And every now and then, threads take a turn like this one.

It's too bad. I suppose i will just ignore "water cooler talk" moving forward... but my daughter is a new elementary school librarian, so the topic got my attention.

[mrreality68]

Ah The Joys of Politics

Sadly Politicians on all sides seems to forget about the people and the effects they have on us

[Snapolit1]

Florida has also pulled some books about Jackie Robinson. Guess they don't want kids to hear how their wonderful state wouldn't alow Jackie and Rachel to shop in the local supermarkets only a few decades ago. "Normalcy" is back indeed. What's old is new again.

https://detroitsportsnation.com/duva...7/2023/393722/

[irv]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Florida has also pulled some books about Jackie Robinson. Guess they don't want kids to hear how their wonderful state wouldn't alow Jackie and Rachel to shop in the local supermarkets only a few decades ago. "Normalcy" is back indeed. What's old is new again.

https://detroitsportsnation.com/duva...7/2023/393722/

"The Intellectualist" LMAO.
What's their moto, "The Intellectualist, a site for the unintelligent" and people still sign up?
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-intellectualist/
These media sources are moderate to strongly biased toward liberal causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports, and omit information reporting that may damage liberal causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy. See all Left Bias sources.

Overall, we rate The Intellectualist Left Biased based on story selection that consistently favors the left. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to a couple of failed fact checks and the use of misleading headlines that entirely match the story.

Unbelievable what some people will believe today.

[packs]

Did the state remove the Jackie book or not? That is the subject of the post. The report also came from Penguin, the publisher of the books removed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Walton County identified two books by Toni Morrison as violating the statute. Yes, Toni Morrison.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Did the state remove the Jackie book or not? That is the subject of the post. The report also came from Penguin, the publisher of the books removed.

They did not. This report is saying the school district did. The district says these books were never in its system at all (https://www.news4jax.com/entertainme...er-on-shelves/). “After requesting more information about the report from the district, a DCPS spokeswoman told News4JAX Tuesday afternoon there are nearly 200 books being reviewed by the district but none of them were challenged by members of the community and the books were never on the library shelves.” So they weren’t in the library at all, and they haven’t been banned by the district.

This claim that these books were banned appears to be completely false. Furthermore, anyone who has read the short law would know that such books are not banned from school libraries whatsoever, and that the law very explicitly requires the achievements of and problems experienced by African Americans to be taught to children. This is just fake rage bait for people who are unable or unwilling to to put even 1 minute into checking if it’s true, or reading the law.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The law does say critical race theory cannot be taught, n'est-ce pas?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The law does say critical race theory cannot be taught, n'est-ce pas?

No. "Critical" and "theory" are two more words that never appear in the law in any context whatsoever.

The bill is less than 4,000 words. If one does not want to read all of it, 51-78 are a good general summation of what it does not allow.

The talking points of right or left do not equal actual reality.

[packs]

The updated Pen letter includes a disclaimer that says they are looking into the precise details of why, when, and for how long the books were removed. I don’t see any challenges to them being removed for a period of time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

No. "Critical" and "theory" are two more words that never appear in the law in any context whatsoever.

The bill is less than 4,000 words. If one does not want to read all of it, 51-78 are a good general summation of what it does not allow.

The talking points of right or left do not equal actual reality.

I've read it. It bans it in so many words and that is obviously how it is understood including by the court that struck it down as unconstitutional as applied to universities.