1989 Fleer Randy Johnson #381 Marlboro Errors - 30 Years Later

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve5838

The card I posted a picture of on 12/22 has been reholdered by PSA.... but $39 later (including shipping) the label stayed the same. Here is the new scan from PSA. I still don't get it. I guess they are no longer putting the Ad on Scoreboard label on any version other than the clear?? After so much back and forth with them on this particular submission I will not be sending any more RJs to PSA. Be careful if having this particular label from a TPG matters to you. Steve

That sucks. I don't care what they label them as if they would at least be consistent with those labels. PSA sucks at labeling the 89 Fleer Bill Ripken cards also. There are several different versions they will label as "Black Scribble Over Error" and those different versions can vary in price from $10 to $1250 in the same grade.

With all the different versions I am not sure there is a realistic way for them to get it correct most of the time. With the 3 different color tints and the huge amount of difference in the darkness of the tints even in the same color of tints, then add in the stencil and box versions it really is just too much.

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by bnorth

That sucks. I don't care what they label them as if they would at least be consistent with those labels. PSA sucks at labeling the 89 Fleer Bill Ripken cards also. There are several different versions they will label as "Black Scribble Over Error" and those different versions can vary in price from $10 to $1250 in the same grade.

With all the different versions I am not sure there is a realistic way for them to get it correct most of the time. With the 3 different color tints and the huge amount of difference in the darkness of the tints even in the same color of tints, then add in the stencil and box versions it really is just too much.

Ben, I think you are probably right. I do care how they label my cards though so I guess I am glad I purchased when I did and most of mine say Ad on Scoreboard. Still I think PSA owes it to customers to clarify their new labeling convention and confirm it has in fact changed. People are willing to pay more for the Scoreboard label and its not fair to suck money from customers who are assuming their cards will get the Scoreboard label designations (based on all the pictures of PSA slabbed Scoreboard labeled cards that show up when you search APR recent sales on PSA's own site). It seems like bait and switch to me. It just isn't right. I don't care where they draw the lines between their 3 defined versions so long as they are transparent with what the distinguishing criteria are and consistent with the application. Steve

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by bnorth

That sucks. I don't care what they label them as if they would at least be consistent with those labels.

Originally Posted by steve5838

It just isn't right. I don't care where they draw the lines between their 3 defined versions so long as they are transparent with what the distinguishing criteria are and consistent with the application. Steve

Tall, tall order at this point in time. As we all know, they never have been and there is no incentive for them to start. PSA of today has a mostly antagonistic relationship with its customers, especially toward those bothering them with nonsense like variations and "difficult" items (aka anything not in Beckett/SCD annuals).

[ALR-bishop]

I am not a graded collector and have never sent a card to be graded, but I get why grading companies would not be well equipped to deal with odd ball or non standard items. Since Lemke retired and then the catalogs quit publishing there is no real viable vehicle to get variations/variants widespread hobby recognition that the grading companies can follow

I like the update Mike Cady is doing to the Gilkeson publications but it does not seem to be widely followed. And it involves the same problem of what is or should be the accepted definition of a variation in the hobby.

If you just like to collect variations, variants, recurring print defects and print oddities it does not matter much. But if your goal is increasing the value of your oddities I guess PSA or other grading company recognition of them is your only route at present.

[steve5838]

I just received the April 2023 copy of PSA Magazine and was pleasantly surprised to see a call out to #381 in an article titled "Cinderella Men". The writeup is riddled with inaccurate info (and it would have been nice if they had shown one of the versions where you can make out the sign) but nonetheless I figured others here may be interested.

[Statfreak101]

Thanks for sharing.

That picture and example is LMAO material.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve5838

I just received the April 2023 copy of PSA Magazine and was pleasantly surprised to see a call out to #381 in an article titled "Cinderella Men". The writeup is riddled with inaccurate info (and it would have been nice if they had shown one of the versions where you can make out the sign) but nonetheless I figured others here may be interested.

They should have borrowed a picture from you for the article. One of these days I have another card to send you.

[Hatorade]

Let’s do a little test to see if anyone here has what it takes to become a PSA card grader. I’ll post some images of graded 1989 Fleer Randy Johnson cards and ask members to identify the correct label. PSA labels the different versions of the cards Ad on Scoreboard(AOS), Ad Partially Obscured(APO) and Ad Completely Blacked Out(ACBO). Please guess which of the three labels is used for the posted cards. Are you PSA material? We’ll start with an easy one.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

Let’s do a little test to see if anyone here has what it takes to become a PSA card grader. I’ll post some images of graded 1989 Fleer Randy Johnson cards and ask members to identify the correct label. PSA labels the different versions of the cards Ad on Scoreboard(AOS), Ad Partially Obscured(APO) and Ad Completely Blacked Out(ACBO). Please guess which of the three labels is used for the posted cards. Are you PSA material? We’ll start with an easy one.

1) 1987 Topps Barry Bonds
2) 2012 Donruss Derek Jeter
3) 1910 T210 Joe Jackson
4) 1999 Fleer Tradition Wade Boggs
5) 1983 Donruss Jose Canseco

I would bet these are as close as PSA got.

EDIT: To add they are all Add Completely Blocked Out but as someone who has collected a lot of these cards PSA is about 50/50 on getting them correct.

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

Let’s do a little test to see if anyone here has what it takes to become a PSA card grader. I’ll post some images of graded 1989 Fleer Randy Johnson cards and ask members to identify the correct label. PSA labels the different versions of the cards Ad on Scoreboard(AOS), Ad Partially Obscured(APO) and Ad Completely Blacked Out(ACBO). Please guess which of the three labels is used for the posted cards. Are you PSA material? We’ll start with an easy one.

I also vote for the Ad Completely Blacked Out label on each of these.

[Hatorade]

Steve and Ben are both correct, but they are not PSA grader material.The cards are all examples of the common version and what should be labeled as Ad Completely Blacked Out, but instead they are labeled as all three of the different PSA versions.

[Hatorade]

Round 2, let’s try again. Are these cards Ad on Scoreboard, Ad Partially Obscured, or Ad Completely Blacked Out?

[Smanzari]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

Round 2, let’s try again. Are these cards Ad on Scoreboard, Ad Partially Obscured, or Ad Completely Blacked Out?

Can't tell from your pics; second down on the left appears to be Partially Obscured, but could be a dark scan with the full.

I actually just found a nice stack of these and literally never noticed the "Black Box" version until I started looking (knew the others) - was kind of cool to find!

[steve5838]

I also vote for "Ad Partially Obscured" on all of these round 2 cards. From my recent experience with PSA this is the only label they are putting on any Marlboro cards for me these days.

Being that it's Friday I figured I would waste a little time... A while back someone asked me about light on the clear version card. I recorded a little clip that others may be interested in seeing too and posted it up on YouTube. It doesn't have sound, but I threw captions on it. I guess you need to turn on the captions though... sorry, I probably should have just recorded audio. Also, sorry for the jittery camera it was just taken on my phone.

https://youtu.be/R0BaA8letSE

Steve

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

Round 2, let’s try again. Are these cards Ad on Scoreboard, Ad Partially Obscured, or Ad Completely Blacked Out?

Ad Completely Blacked Out. Obviously.

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

Ad Completely Blacked Out. Obviously.

This is where it gets tricky and depends where they draw the line between partially obscured and ad completely blacked out. But of course there are differences between these and the fully corrected version. As a PSA grader I think I will just go middle of the road on all these cards with the Partially Obscured label so I'm never too wrong. Haha.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by steve5838

This is where it gets tricky and depends where they draw the line between partially obscured and ad completely blacked out. But of course there are differences between these and the fully corrected version. As a PSA grader I think I will just go middle of the road on all these cards with the Partially Obscured label so I'm never too wrong. Haha.

Sorry, that was overt sarcasm.

[Hatorade]

Dylan was 100% spot on. Despite these cards all being examples of error variations, with a couple actually fairly lightly tinted versions, PSA has slapped the Ad Completely Blacked Out label on all of them. We have a new PSA grader in our midst!

[JustinD]

I have missed a few pages so if this was mentioned already, please forgive me. I was perusing 22' Topps Heritage and saw this one.

I am thinking this has to be on purpose as a designer joke -



Even Jeter got in on the action -

[jacksoncoupage]

Surprised to see these listed by multiple sellers. Paging Rich Klein...

https://www.comc.com/Cards/Baseball/...board)/1950804

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

Surprised to see these listed by multiple sellers. Paging Rich Klein...

https://www.comc.com/Cards/Baseball/...board)/1950804

Then they could fix the other hundreds if not thousands of messed up listings. I used to love that site but it has been a shit show for years and has gotten a little worse every year for a long time.

You can't even search the site by recent listings of specific cards.

[Hatorade]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I have missed a few pages so if this was mentioned already, please forgive me. I was perusing 22' Topps Heritage and saw this one.

I am thinking this has to be on purpose as a designer joke -



Even Jeter got in on the action -

I don’t think this is the ad that was included in the photos used for the 2022 archives cards, but Yankee Stadium did at one time have the same Marlboro ad that was at the Vet and in the background of the 1989 Fleer Johnson error cards.

[Hatorade]

I’m not sure how we missed this one!

[steve5838]

I missed out on the flash sale of these early wax boxes at BBCE but won this one over the weekend at HA. Has anyone seen an earlier date than 83222 on these?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve5838

I missed out on the flash sale of these early wax boxes at BBCE but won this one over the weekend at HA. Has anyone seen an earlier date than 83222 on these?

Nice pick up. Are you going to open it?

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Nice pick up. Are you going to open it?

Thanks Ben. I don't have it yet. Knowing my history with unopened, I am sure I won't be able to hold off long (even though there's probably a 99% chance it's worth more unopened). I might use it as a holiday present to myself since I'm pretty excited about it. I'll definitely let you know if I pull anything good or not if/when I rip it.

[hockeyhockey]

awesome steve. sorry i missed that flash sale, too!

hope you get a cool marlboro, let us know.

[Hatorade]

It looks like another clear card surfaced recently. Were you the one who ended up winning the auction Steve?

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

It looks like another clear card surfaced recently. Were you the one who ended up winning the auction Steve?

The guy pulled the auction. I was 1st or 2nd highest around $900 or so. I messaged him and asked what it cost for him to pull it and he never responded.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

The guy pulled the auction. I was 1st or 2nd highest around $900 or so. I messaged him and asked what it cost for him to pull it and he never responded.

It got resold as a BIN but I have no idea to who. Not sure how to see the price accepted anymore. Here is the listing that sold.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/37515298329...Bk9SR_K-sJ6fYw

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by bnorth

It got resold as a BIN but I have no idea to who. Not sure how to see the price accepted anymore. Here is the listing that sold.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/37515298329...Bk9SR_K-sJ6fYw

Oh wow. I wish I had seen it. I had prepared to fight a bit for this one. Maybe not the buy-it-now...

[jp1216]

According to 130point.com - sold for Best Offer of $2500.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jp1216

According to 130point.com - sold for Best Offer of $2500.

That is considerably less than I imagined it would be.

[steve5838]

Yes, I purchased the card. I received a notification as soon as it was listed on eBay and sent the seller a message offering him 2k for the card if he wanted to sell it before the auction began. He didn't respond to the question and I eventually started bidding on the card. The day before the auction ended the seller reached out to me and wanted to know if I would still like to buy it outright. I told him I would and ended up paying 2500.

This is the first clear one I was able to handle raw and it was a thrill to unpack and compare against the others. I've sent the card to PSA and was going to wait until it came back before posting anything here. I do not expect a high grade on this one due to its lack of centering and corner/edge wear. The sign quality is excellent though (same as the others). I will post a scan when I get it back (supposedly by the week after next) but in the meantime here are a few pictures of the raw card.

Steve

[jp1216]

Cool card - congrats! I 1000% agree about being able to see the card (like this one) in the raw. Easier to examine it.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve5838

Yes, I purchased the card. I received a notification as soon as it was listed on eBay and sent the seller a message offering him 2k for the card if he wanted to sell it before the auction began. He didn't respond to the question and I eventually started bidding on the card. The day before the auction ended the seller reached out to me and wanted to know if I would still like to buy it outright. I told him I would and ended up paying 2500.

This is the first clear one I was able to handle raw and it was a thrill to unpack and compare against the others. I've sent the card to PSA and was going to wait until it came back before posting anything here. I do not expect a high grade on this one due to its lack of centering and corner/edge wear. The sign quality is excellent though (same as the others). I will post a scan when I get it back (supposedly by the week after next) but in the meantime here are a few pictures of the raw card.

Steve

Nice, very happy it was you who ended up with it.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by jp1216

According to 130point.com - sold for Best Offer of $2500.

peanuts, really

[Hatorade]

Originally Posted by steve5838

Yes, I purchased the card. I received a notification as soon as it was listed on eBay and sent the seller a message offering him 2k for the card if he wanted to sell it before the auction began. He didn't respond to the question and I eventually started bidding on the card. The day before the auction ended the seller reached out to me and wanted to know if I would still like to buy it outright. I told him I would and ended up paying 2500.

This is the first clear one I was able to handle raw and it was a thrill to unpack and compare against the others. I've sent the card to PSA and was going to wait until it came back before posting anything here. I do not expect a high grade on this one due to its lack of centering and corner/edge wear. The sign quality is excellent though (same as the others). I will post a scan when I get it back (supposedly by the week after next) but in the meantime here are a few pictures of the raw card.

Steve

Congrats! It’s crazy you own 3/4 of the clears that are known to have surfaced since the 80’s. What are the odds?! It’s going to be tough for anyone else to own one if you get all of them.

[steve5838]

Thanks everyone! Hatorade: Funny you should mention that. Yesterday this video popped up on my phone - one of those ones that get automatically generated every so often. It's aptly titled "people I like to photograph" over the last 4 years. I bet you can guess "who" it's about...

I posted the 35 second clip on YouTube in case you're interested: https://youtu.be/jbCXZeetz0Y?feature=shared

Steve

[Blackless Collector]

FB_IMG_1705174406280.jpg

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Blackless Collector

Attachment 605243

LOL, that is awesome.

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by Blackless Collector

Attachment 605243

Looks like a Randy Johnson partially obscured to me. Haha. I love it!

[yanksfan09]

Originally Posted by Blackless Collector

Attachment 605243

Haven't seen this version! Must be low pop!

[Blackless Collector]

Originally Posted by yanksfan09

Haven't seen this version! Must be low pop!

Low Pop and smoke free version🤣🤣🤣

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by Blackless Collector

Attachment 605243

Brilliant!

[steve5838]

The grade just popped this morning. Here is a picture of the newly slabbed "clear" one. The grade is about what I expected -- my guess was 6 or 7 -- and I'm very happy to have it slabbed. One notable part of this one is that it is the first of the 4 known clears that will have its slab viewable when you search the cert number on PSA's site (it is not there yet but should be in next few days). The other 3 were graded prior to this feature.
Steve

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve5838

The grade just popped this morning. Here is a picture of the newly slabbed "clear" one. The grade is about what I expected -- my guess was 6 or 7 -- and I'm very happy to have it slabbed. One notable part of this one is that it is the first of the 4 known clears that will have its slab viewable when you search the cert number on PSA's site (it is not there yet but should be in next few days). The other 3 were graded prior to this feature.
Steve

Nice, thanks for posting the picture. I hope to own one someday. I will have to get lucky and find one cheap that nobody else notices and the seller has no idea what they have.

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Nice, thanks for posting the picture. I hope to own one someday. I will have to get lucky and find one cheap that nobody else notices and the seller has no idea what they have.

Thanks Ben. Yes, I think the clear (and aquamarine) ones are extremely rare but this (3rd find in the last 4 years) supports that there are likely more out there! I think this seller knew exactly what he had. He mentioned the rarity of the card and what it could go for if graded but didn't want to grade it himself. Having the uncertainty of an ungraded card that would be worth more graded and relying only on low resolution pictures made this one of my riskier purchases. It ended up being worth the risk but could have easily backfired on me - I was pretty anxious until the card arrived and I had a chance to view it under the loupe!

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve5838

Thanks Ben. Yes, I think the clear (and aquamarine) ones are extremely rare but this (3rd find in the last 4 years) supports that there are likely more out there! I think this seller knew exactly what he had. He mentioned the rarity of the card and what it could go for if graded but didn't want to grade it himself. Having the uncertainty of an ungraded card that would be worth more graded and relying only on low resolution pictures made this one of my riskier purchases. It ended up being worth the risk but could have easily backfired on me - I was pretty anxious until the card arrived and I had a chance to view it under the loupe!

Did you ever open the early wax box and if so did it have anything good in it?

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Did you ever open the early wax box and if so did it have anything good in it?

Yes and no. I caved in after New Years and opened it. Unfortunately it didn't contain a single Randy Johnson. Ugh. I pulled one nicely centered FF card but that was about it.