T3 Turkey Red discovery.

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Posted By: qualitycards

Elliot urged me to come aboard and share this information, so here is my 1st post.


As a T3 collecor, I wanted to get a companion piece for display. Be it a period advertisement, a Turkey Red cigarette pack or a coupon voucher.

I found a voucher on eBay and was happy to add it to my collection, and while reading the rules & regulations on submitting the 10 coupons for a card of your choice.
I noticed that it states that the Baseball players would be ready for release on April 1, 1910 and would expire on June 30, 1911. So this is clearly a 1910 set, not 1911 as it is stated in the Standard catalog of Baseball cards and Beckett publications. Way back Burdick or someone must have looked at the back of a T3 where it states that the offer expires June 30, 1911, and assumed it was a 1911 issue. But the cards were released to the public at the beginning of the 1910 season.
I notified Bob Lemke last week and he responded today that he will indeed change the date to 1910 for the 2006 edition of the Standard Catalog (the 2005 has already gone to press)..jay

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

What is the size of the coupon and is the back blank? thanks

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Posted By: Craig D

Turkey Red coupons with the "Base Ball series will be ready to mail April 1, 1910" show a 1-75 checklist on the back and measure approx 2 1/2" X 4". The Fez coupon with the same front and back info (1-75 checklist, start and finish date) measures approx 2 1/4" X 2 1/2". The Turkey Red coupons showing the 1-76 checklist measure the same as the 1-75 back but do not state a beginning date, only the ending date of June 30, 1911. Lastly, I have an Old Mill coupon which has the 77-126 checklist. It measures the same as the Fez and again, only mentions the offer expiration date of June 30, 1911.

Turkey Red obviously started in 1910 and went through half of 1911, actually making it a 1910-1911 issue. I thought this was fairly common knowledge, but maybe not.

As a last note, I have very rarely seen the 77-126 checklist coupons.

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Posted By: qualitycards

"thought this was fairly common knowledge, but maybe not."
Not So! The Sweet Caporal P2 pins are stated as a 1910-1912 issue, the T206's are known as a 1909-1911 issue and so on. Nowhere have I seen the T3's listed by anything but 1911. Also the cabinet cards they distributed from day 1 to the final day were the same. So it should be soley a 1910 issue. Other issues that were produced for more then a year had variations and different cards produced along their run...jay

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

The variations in the set would seem to support the cards being printed in both years - take the Paskert variation for example. One has Paskert with Cincinnati only and the other says Cincinnati & Philadelphia. Given that Paskert didn't play with Philadelphia until 1911, the change would have been made either in the 1910 offseason or early in the 1911 season.

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Posted By: Paul

The 1910 date would also explain the appearance of Willie Keeler and Vic Willis in this set. Both retired after 1910. Interestingly, Willis is listed as being with Pittsburgh and St. Louis. He played his last game with Pittsburgh in 1909. Perhaps Turkey Red was ready to go to press when Willis was traded, and decided to list him with both teams, rather than merely updating his card to list him with St. Louis.

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Posted By: qualitycards

GREG - PAUL - Thanks for the info. It is appreciated...jay

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

states in the first paragraph "The cards were offered in 1910 and were available through 1911". He notes player movement and the ad backs in support of this. I guess I never noticed that the other guides pinned the issue to 1911 only. Hopefully, this will be updated.

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Posted By: qualitycards

Todd - It will be updated in the 2006 SCD Standard Catalog Of Baseball Cards as Bob Lemke was eMailed the info. and responded that the 2005 edition is already being printed.
I have Lipsets books and should have looked there. But I always thought that 1911 was the year. I also have PSA & GAI T3's and both state 1911 as their issue date too! ...jay

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Posted By: The other One (Julie)

sets"--) E-254 Colgans--NOT the E270s--they all came out in 1912, but the E254s, were produced 1909-1912, and say so, even though they are all the same. This may be partially because some players are represented with different team designations throughout the set, as trades took place)_. So, well, they aren't all the same--but the team variations are really pretty rare, much rarer than the actual team changes were in real life.

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Posted By: Chris Stufflestreet

Thanks for the info. I've already updated the T3 page on my website to reflect the correct date.

http://www.geocities.com/chrisstufflestreet/t3.html

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Posted By: Craig D

Because of the coupons, Lipset's information and the team changes/updates in the series, I always considered this "common knowledge" with no thought towards updating the record. It never seemed too important. Certainly, for the sake of accuracy, it's best that it be noted properly.