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View Poll Results: Who is the greatest living player today?
Ronald Acuna Jr 1 0.24%
Johnny Bench 16 3.89%
Mookie Betts 0 0%
Barry Bonds 116 28.22%
Steve Carlton 0 0%
Roger Clemens 2 0.49%
Ken Griifey Jr 37 9.00%
Rickey Henderson 27 6.57%
Randy Johnson 2 0.49%
Sandy Koufax 52 12.65%
Greg Maddux 7 1.70%
Pedro Martinez 5 1.22%
Shohei Ohtani 17 4.14%
Albert Pujols 16 3.89%
Cal Ripken Jr 5 1.22%
Alex Rodriguez 0 0%
Pete Rose 39 9.49%
Nolan Ryan 33 8.03%
Mike Schmidt 17 4.14%
Ichiro Suzuki 6 1.46%
Mike Trout 1 0.24%
Other 12 2.92%
Voters: 411. You may not vote on this poll

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  #351  
Old 06-28-2024, 10:34 PM
aro13 aro13 is offline
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Default Boggs

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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I have the same recollection of Boggs in Boston, as I've posted, but it's probably not accurate.
Watching Boggs play in Boston for his entire career I tend to agree with you by the eye test. However, with Boggs he never deviated from his plan regardless of the situation. He would virtually always take the first pitch, he didn't venture out of the strike zone, he hit mostly everything to center and left-center. His career stats indicated he wasn't nearly as good with 2 outs and runners in scoring position (.306 to .335) and late and close situations (.309 to .335). And because he didn't ever deviate he didn't drive in as many runs. The Red Sox were a slow base running team to begin with, but a majority of Boggs two out singles were hit to left field and particularly at Fenway that is not going to score a runner from second. His value is enormous because of his OBP but objectively and subjectively he wasn't nearly as good when it counted.
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  #352  
Old 06-28-2024, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by aro13 View Post
Watching Boggs play in Boston for his entire career I tend to agree with you by the eye test. However, with Boggs he never deviated from his plan regardless of the situation. He would virtually always take the first pitch, he didn't venture out of the strike zone, he hit mostly everything to center and left-center. His career stats indicated he wasn't nearly as good with 2 outs and runners in scoring position (.306 to .335) and late and close situations (.309 to .335). And because he didn't ever deviate he didn't drive in as many runs. The Red Sox were a slow base running team to begin with, but a majority of Boggs two out singles were hit to left field and particularly at Fenway that is not going to score a runner from second. His value is enormous because of his OBP but objectively and subjectively he wasn't nearly as good when it counted.
He truly seemed to care only about his hit totals. He would protest, apparently, when an error was called instead of awarding him a hit. You would think in a key situation you would rejoice to see a .350 hitter (at that time in his career he was) coming up, but quite the opposite.
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  #353  
Old 06-28-2024, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
He truly seemed to care only about his hit totals. He would protest, apparently, when an error was called instead of awarding him a hit. You would think in a key situation you would rejoice to see a .350 hitter (at that time in his career he was) coming up, but quite the opposite.
He wouldn't be the first player to protest an error call on an apparent base hit. Especially considering he was always a candidate to win a batting title.

Boggs scored over 1500 runs in his career, including 7 straight years scoring 100+ runs. I think it's a little tough to downgrade him for also not driving in a bunch of runs. Rod Carew was the same type of player, although he scored fewer runs in his career than Boggs.

Appreciate what he does do - high on-base percentage (keeping rallies alive) and being on the scoring end. It's not all about driving runs in.
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  #354  
Old 06-29-2024, 01:32 AM
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If you make it a 7 year stretch Pedro is even better. In 1997 he put up a 1.90 era and threw 13 complete games. It's probably one of the most overlooked great seasons in the past 30 years.
Runs saved is a better metric than ERA+ to evaluate pitchers as it factors in innings pitched as well.
I agree Pedro (and probably every pitcher not named Koufax) is probably underrated in the poll. Where does one find the runs saved metric? Is it on baseball reference or fangraphs, or somewhere else?
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  #355  
Old 06-29-2024, 09:37 AM
aro13 aro13 is offline
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I agree Pedro (and probably every pitcher not named Koufax) is probably underrated in the poll. Where does one find the runs saved metric? Is it on baseball reference or fangraphs, or somewhere else?
ItÂ’s probably on one of the sites. I calculate it myself. Take Pedro in 2000 - he posted a 1.74 era allowing 42 earned runs. The league average was 5.06 and pitching the same number of innings as Pedro would have allowed 122 runs. Therefore, Pedro saved the Sox 80 earned runs relative to an average pitcher.

Koufax in 1966 posted a 1.73 era and allowed 62 earned runs. The average pitcher in 1966 posted a 3.29 era and allowed 118 earned runs. Koufax saves the Dodgers 56 runs.

If I could only use one star to evaluate pitchers I would choose runs saved. Obviously itÂ’s not the only important stat.
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  #356  
Old 06-29-2024, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by aro13 View Post
ItÂ’s probably on one of the sites. I calculate it myself. Take Pedro in 2000 - he posted a 1.74 era allowing 42 earned runs. The league average was 5.06 and pitching the same number of innings as Pedro would have allowed 122 runs. Therefore, Pedro saved the Sox 80 earned runs relative to an average pitcher.

Koufax in 1966 posted a 1.73 era and allowed 62 earned runs. The average pitcher in 1966 posted a 3.29 era and allowed 118 earned runs. Koufax saves the Dodgers 56 runs.

If I could only use one star to evaluate pitchers I would choose runs saved. Obviously itÂ’s not the only important stat.
I like the runs saved/avoided metric. Its kind of like ERA+ multiplied by the innings pitched.
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  #357  
Old 06-29-2024, 10:13 AM
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In any case, the common conception that no one since has matched Koufax's peak may not necessarily be so.
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  #358  
Old 06-29-2024, 10:24 AM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
In any case, the common conception that no one since has matched Koufax's peak may not necessarily be so.
Pedro, Kershaw, Maddux, Ryu . Been some great peak pitchers since.
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