n172 st louis browns champs?

[esd10]

i have seen alot of n172 st louis brown champs get a authentic grade why is this? where the hand cut from a premium or cabinet? where inserted in packs of cigarettes like all the other old judge cards? any insight would be helpful thanks

[Matthew H]

Some could be cut from an ad but most were inserted then trimmed later.

Keep in mind, TPGs grade many unaltered OJs authentic. I havent figured out why yet.

I have a card that I suspect was cut from an ad, it seems to me that the albumen might be better quality then he regular inserts. Maybe an expert can chime in and tell me I'm imagining things.

[barrysloate]

Old Judges come in all different sizes, so they have to be a particular challenge for the TPG.

Matthew- if the one you have was cut from an advertising piece, it would be very thick.

[Matthew H]

Barry, the reason I'm not sure is because it's partially skinned. The remaining mount does seem a different make as well... Slightly darker. Did you ever notice a difference in the albumen? The card I am referencing seem to have a different surface texture. Sort of like the texture you would get from one of those portrait studios at the mall,,, I'm @ work, no scan available right now.

[barrysloate]

I don't know if you have a copy of the Old Judge book but there are several advertising pieces pictured. I've seen them in person and there doesn't seem to be any difference between the photographic quality of the ad pieces and the actual cards, so if it's skinned I might not be able to tell. I have seen Old Judges that were irregularly cut and were on very thick mounts, nearly twice the thickness of the regular cards. Those were easily determined to be from the advertising pieces.

[Matthew H]

Thanks Barry, I'm almost sure it's from an ad, it's a recent bst purchase and I'll post a scan later.

I don't understand why TPGs have a hard time grading OJs. It's really easy to see trimming, factory cut edges are obvious, under a loupe, IMO.

[barrysloate]

You would assume so but they still have to make a judgment call with some of the smaller examples. I remember once sending a group in to one of the grading companies and getting mostly Authentic grades, then breaking them out and sending them to the other TPG...and of course all but one came back with numerical grades. So there is clearly some subjectivity involved.

[Matthew H]

This is the card that I believe was cut from an ad. The board member I bought it from had a cool story to go along with it, may be he'll chime in.

Supporting my ad cut theory is the fact that there was a Brooklyn mini within the group of cards.

Looking at it closely again, I still believe the albumen is of a different quality.

Back to the OP, I doubt most of the Browns Champs are hand cut. I think the reason you see so many is because the same examples have been sitting on eBay with moon prices for quite some time.

[barrysloate]

The albumen photo should be the same. Are you sure it's real? I'm unable to tell from the scan, but there should be no difference between the issued card and the advertising banner.

[Matthew H]

I'm positive it's real. It could just be the way it's aged... It also could be a difference nobody has noticed. It's subtle if the difference is there. I wish I had more ad cut cards to compare it to.

[barrysloate]

Does the mount look thicker than a normal OJ?

[Matthew H]

No, it's partially skinned, or possibly rebacked. I'm going with partially skinned due to the uneven thickness and torn look of the back of the mount.

[barrysloate]

Maybe some of the OJ experts can chime in. Certainly looks hand cut.