VCBC #7, 1996, PSA & ASA Card Grading Svc's - Smoke Detectors Without Batteries

[rickyb80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

More likely they bought up the remaining inventory. How would you send people "throughout the country" to buy up single issues?

From another page in this forum: https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...06#post1952906

[rickyb80]

Originally Posted by rickyb80

From another page in this forum: https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...06#post1952906

To clarify, I don't believe I was referring to this particular forum page when I mentioned those who were "biased for PSA and against Dennis". The exact location of the page I am referring to is still unknown. I just don't want anyone feeling as though I'm calling them out, because that's not how my mind operates. Actually, nevermind, that is precisely how my mind operates if the situation calls for it.

My write-up was directed at those who match the description of someone lacking in maturity, incapable of taking advice, with an exaggerated sense of their abilities, who reflexively responds to information they disagree with, and/or assumes, attacks others, uses disparaging or unhelpful language to distract or shift focus from themselves to another (ad hominem) or blindly defend the indefensible (e.g. - PSA). I'm not saying that every card graded from PSA is illegitimate, but rather I am pointing out the fact that the investigations have been undergone and the results are in. It's not even a contentious topic at this point. PSA makes the worst slabs, is the least consistent, and has the worst track record of any of the big 3 companies. The clearest pattern I have seen between those who feel the way I do and those who do not are:

1) Some advocates for PSA are unaware of the details of the companies history
2) Some advocates for PSA instantly reject negative information because it's a hard pill to swallow, depending on the degree of investment using their services
3) A lot of those advocating for PSA are dealers who use resale value as the sole factor in determining which is the better option
4) Many of those who are new to the hobby are introduced and indoctrinated into the culture of collecting by those preaching PSA as the standard.

Ignorance, unawareness, stubbornness, closed-mindedness, greed, corruption, or just sheer stupidity. I never assume that I know what the source is, but the pattern is definitely present. #1 applies to most beginners/novices but it could be as simple as someone just not taking the time to research it. Whether that's out of laziness on their part or simply that they do not care to know is an internal matter based on each person. #2 applies to a lot of people and I do my best to steer clear from this type because it is futile to believe they can be swayed with facts and the issue is actual caused by something deeper in these individuals. #3 has everything to do with money and that's not the point of collecting, but so long as people continue to overpay for PSA 10's vs. BGS 9.5's this type will continue to roam our hobby in large numbers. #4, like #1, applies to people entering the hobby who haven't taken the time to look deeply into it's history. This type usually hears the acronym "PSA" from another collector (usually a friend or someone they already relate to) so they follow along and join the bandwagon in such fashion. I'm sure there are many more types, but that's just my humble observation. Oh, there's also the question of "whose slabs are best?", but if you place a PSA slab next to a BGS slab it doesn't even seem like a subjective matter. The majority of those I have encountered agree that PSA slabs are thin, cheap, and ugly. Yes, I know, there are those who just love them, but I'd be willing to place a bet that BGS would win in a poll for modern and SGC would likely win in a poll for vintage slabs.

I have noticed that there is a higher percentage of experienced collectors who choose SGC over everything. In my opinion, SGC is a very good company. They are professional, consistent, and seem to hold the deepest appreciation for the history of the hobby. If I were a museum director I'd send everything to SGC. Having spoke with several of the people who work at SGC, at all levels, they seem to be the most ethical of all the big 3 companies. Not to mention that their grading is unbelievably strict. There was 1 time I did crack a 1971 Dusty Baker from an SGC 7 slab in an attempt to bump it to a 7 or an 8 and they returned it as "trimmed", but I do not consider that to be a problem with the company. The grader had a question in his mind as to whether the card was trimmed and he erred on the side of caution. I'd rather a grading company call a card trimmed when it's not than to assign it a numeric grade when it shouldn't because it bolsters the integrity of the process.

Anyways, are there any hobby veterans who are not dealers and would in no way be adversely impacted by the ultimate dissolution of PSA who are aware of everything that has transpired, yet would still be willing to consider PSA as the best of the big 3 companies? If so, how and why? Please help me understand what I am not seeing because I have worked pretty hard not to believe what I now feel to be the truth.

Cheers,
Ricky

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by rickyb80

To clarify, I don't believe I was referring to this particular forum page when I mentioned those who were "biased for PSA and against Dennis". The exact location of the page I am referring to is still unknown. I just don't want anyone feeling as though I'm calling them out, because that's not how my mind operates. Actually, nevermind, that is precisely how my mind operates if the situation calls for it.

My write-up was directed at those who match the description of someone lacking in maturity, incapable of taking advice, with an exaggerated sense of their abilities, who reflexively responds to information they disagree with, and/or assumes, attacks others, uses disparaging or unhelpful language to distract or shift focus from themselves to another (ad hominem) or blindly defend the indefensible (e.g. - PSA). I'm not saying that every card graded from PSA is illegitimate, but rather I am pointing out the fact that the investigations have been undergone and the results are in. It's not even a contentious topic at this point. PSA makes the worst slabs, is the least consistent, and has the worst track record of any of the big 3 companies. The clearest pattern I have seen between those who feel the way I do and those who do not are:

1) Some advocates for PSA are unaware of the details of the companies history
2) Some advocates for PSA instantly reject negative information because it's a hard pill to swallow, depending on the degree of investment using their services
3) A lot of those advocating for PSA are dealers who use resale value as the sole factor in determining which is the better option
4) Many of those who are new to the hobby are introduced and indoctrinated into the culture of collecting by those preaching PSA as the standard.

Ignorance, unawareness, stubbornness, closed-mindedness, greed, corruption, or just sheer stupidity. I never assume that I know what the source is, but the pattern is definitely present. #1 applies to most beginners/novices but it could be as simple as someone just not taking the time to research it. Whether that's out of laziness on their part or simply that they do not care to know is an internal matter based on each person. #2 applies to a lot of people and I do my best to steer clear from this type because it is futile to believe they can be swayed with facts and the issue is actual caused by something deeper in these individuals. #3 has everything to do with money and that's not the point of collecting, but so long as people continue to overpay for PSA 10's vs. BGS 9.5's this type will continue to roam our hobby in large numbers. #4, like #1, applies to people entering the hobby who haven't taken the time to look deeply into it's history. This type usually hears the acronym "PSA" from another collector (usually a friend or someone they already relate to) so they follow along and join the bandwagon in such fashion. I'm sure there are many more types, but that's just my humble observation. Oh, there's also the question of "whose slabs are best?", but if you place a PSA slab next to a BGS slab it doesn't even seem like a subjective matter. The majority of those I have encountered agree that PSA slabs are thin, cheap, and ugly. Yes, I know, there are those who just love them, but I'd be willing to place a bet that BGS would win in a poll for modern and SGC would likely win in a poll for vintage slabs.

I have noticed that there is a higher percentage of experienced collectors who choose SGC over everything. In my opinion, SGC is a very good company. They are professional, consistent, and seem to hold the deepest appreciation for the history of the hobby. If I were a museum director I'd send everything to SGC. Having spoke with several of the people who work at SGC, at all levels, they seem to be the most ethical of all the big 3 companies. Not to mention that their grading is unbelievably strict. There was 1 time I did crack a 1971 Dusty Baker from an SGC 7 slab in an attempt to bump it to a 7 or an 8 and they returned it as "trimmed", but I do not consider that to be a problem with the company. The grader had a question in his mind as to whether the card was trimmed and he erred on the side of caution. I'd rather a grading company call a card trimmed when it's not than to assign it a numeric grade when it shouldn't because it bolsters the integrity of the process.

Anyways, are there any hobby veterans who are not dealers and would in no way be adversely impacted by the ultimate dissolution of PSA who are aware of everything that has transpired, yet would still be willing to consider PSA as the best of the big 3 companies? If so, how and why? Please help me understand what I am not seeing because I have worked pretty hard not to believe what I now feel to be the truth.

Cheers,
Ricky

Strait up bottom line is they continue to submit to PSA Because The Dealers and Auction Houses Believe PSA always brings them the most money for their vintage cards. Sure SGC is way more accurate and fair but that doesn’t matter it’s all about the most amount of money they can get.

PSA is Teflon Amazing Business Model Based on Opinions Pumped By Brilliance in Marketing Pop and Registry.....It’s Gold Jerry Gold.....

[rickyb80]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Strait up bottom line is they continue to submit to PSA Because The Dealers and Auction Houses Believe PSA always brings them the most money for their vintage cards. Sure SGC is way more accurate and fair but that doesn’t matter it’s all about the most amount of money they can get.

PSA is Teflon Amazing Business Model Based on Opinions Pumped By Brilliance in Marketing Pop and Registry.....It’s Gold Jerry Gold.....

I agree with you. How can we solve this?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by rickyb80

I agree with you. How can we solve this?

The collecting masses still seem to be completely unaware of the multi-million dollar scam. One thought was to rent a booth at the National Collectors Convention (close to the proximity of PSA). A continuous loop video on a large screen could document the thousands of indisputable "before and after" examples of blatant alteration. Trimmed, recolored, bleached and butchered cards that now reside in numbered PSA holders.

The National is by far the best-attended show in the country, and might be the best place to reach/impact a large number of people who could potentially (and finally) see the light. Sure, the people who are deeply invested in PSA would shun the whole thing, but a number of others presumably "on the fence" could be swayed to spend their money elsewhere.

The media seems disinterested at this point in time. I'm sure that if the FBI was to be successful in making arrests and shutting these people down, then you'd see greater media coverage of the fraud/scandal. But if that never happens, it will continue to be business as usual with favored submitters, card doctors, and dealers of altered/preserved cards continuing to reign supreme (as they bilk the common collector).

The current system is all about money. PSA rakes it in on submissions (and countless re-submissions). Card Doctors routinely realize thousands of dollars for a few minutes of trim work. Shady dealers benefit by selling tainted cards for hundreds of times their actual worth. And auction houses rake in cash in the form of Buyers and Sellers commissions. It's a perfect system for all of them, while the common Joe gets screwed and pays exponentially more money for a card that should grade "A".

[Exhibitman]

Of course it is about money, Mark. Everything in America is about money, from cards to cancer treatment.

Purdy called out the silliness and potential for corruption in TPGs decades ago. I wrote articles for him exposing the fraud behind the SMR, which featured made-up prices for cards that did not exist but which listed them as actual sales anyway. No one cared then and no one cares now because of the money. The registry collectors who consume PSA slabs are too busy spending for slabs as a way of comparing dicks with other rich guys, so they don't want to know from trimming, bleaching and fraud. The PSA dealers know that it costs a fraction of the boost in value to have PSA slab a valuable card, so they hold their noses and carry on. I know that is true because as much as I loathe TPGs, I play that game too when it comes to selling. I sent in an order to PSA last fall which included a Bill Russell RC (the Celtics center, not the Dodgers SS). It is what we used to call a "beater" and I bought it priced accordingly. PSA released the grade yesterday and graded it fair. They 'upcharged' me $60 for the higher than expected grade and I paid it readily because that $60 made a $500 raw card into a $1100 card for the PSA audience. It is a license to print money for everyone involved and as long as there is a market for it, resistance is futile. TPGs are the Borg and they will assimilate you...

[buymycards]

As a side note, PSA has announced that their backlog is over one million cards.

I am not joking.

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Of course it is about money, Mark. Everything in America is about money, from cards to cancer treatment.

Purdy called out the silliness and potential for corruption in TPGs decades ago. I wrote articles for him exposing the fraud behind the SMR, which featured made-up prices for cards that did not exist but which listed them as actual sales anyway. No one cared then and no one cares now because of the money. The registry collectors who consume PSA slabs are too busy spending for slabs as a way of comparing dicks with other rich guys, so they don't want to know from trimming, bleaching and fraud. The PSA dealers know that it costs a fraction of the boost in value to have PSA slab a valuable card, so they hold their noses and carry on. I know that is true because as much as I loathe TPGs, I play that game too when it comes to selling. I sent in an order to PSA last fall which included a Bill Russell RC (the Celtics center, not the Dodgers SS). It is what we used to call a "beater" and I bought it priced accordingly. PSA released the grade yesterday and graded it fair. They 'upcharged' me $60 for the higher than expected grade and I paid it readily because that $60 made a $500 raw card into a $1100 card for the PSA audience. It is a license to print money for everyone involved and as long as there is a market for it, resistance is futile. TPGs are the Borg and they will assimilate you...

I never met Dennis Purdy personally but I did represent him and the magazine in defense of a libel suit in federal court in New Jersey. He was a straight-shooter and wasn’t afraid to express his strong opinions.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The collecting masses still seem to be completely unaware of the multi-million dollar scam. One thought was to rent a booth at the National Collectors Convention (close to the proximity of PSA). A continuous loop video on a large screen could document the thousands of indisputable "before and after" examples of blatant alteration. Trimmed, recolored, bleached and butchered cards that now reside in numbered PSA holders.

The National is by far the best-attended show in the country, and might be the best place to reach/impact a large number of people who could potentially (and finally) see the light. Sure, the people who are deeply invested in PSA would shun the whole thing, but a number of others presumably "on the fence" could be swayed to spend their money elsewhere.

The media seems disinterested at this point in time. I'm sure that if the FBI was to be successful in making arrests and shutting these people down, then you'd see greater media coverage of the fraud/scandal. But if that never happens, it will continue to be business as usual with favored submitters, card doctors, and dealers of altered/preserved cards continuing to reign supreme (as they bilk the common collector).

The current system is all about money. PSA rakes it in on submissions (and countless re-submissions). Card Doctors routinely realize thousands of dollars for a few minutes of trim work. Shady dealers benefit by selling tainted cards for hundreds of times their actual worth. And auction houses rake in cash in the form of Buyers and Sellers commissions. It's a perfect system for all of them, while the common Joe gets screwed and pays exponentially more money for a card that should grade "A".

1) It mentioned in the article that the FTC filed suit against PCGS for "not providing objective or consistent grading" - is that an angle anyone has explored with the current situation?
2) I think the table at the national idea is a great one - Perhaps interested parties could contribute $$ to pay for the table. Perhaps something we could even do in partnership with blowout? Would need volunteers to watch the table and possibly be available to speak to people live (If I go, which as of now I'm planning on, I would volunteer to spend a couple of hours there). we would need to get permission from the promoters as setting up this table would obviously run counter to the interests of at least 2 other table holders (PSA and PWCC). Anyone want to add their thoughts or volunteer to work on this?

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by hcv123

1) It mentioned in the article that the FTC filed suit against PCGS for "not providing objective or consistent grading" - is that an angle anyone has explored with the current situation?
2) I think the table at the national idea is a great one - Perhaps interested parties could contribute $$ to pay for the table. Perhaps something we could even do in partnership with blowout? Would need volunteers to watch the table and possibly be available to speak to people live (If I go, which as of now I'm planning on, I would volunteer to spend a couple of hours there). we would need to get permission from the promoters as setting up this table would obviously run counter to the interests of at least 2 other table holders (PSA and PWCC). Anyone want to add their thoughts or volunteer to work on this?

Hi Howard, first of all, the promoters of the National don't care. As long as they sell out their tables, they don't care that many of the tables are sold to crooks and scammers. They will never let this happen.

Second, PSA is receiving an average of 68,000 submissions per week. The majority of these submitters either don't know about the problems with PSA or they don't care, as long as they believe they will get higher prices with a PSA slab. Talking to a few hundred people at the National will be like throwing a rock in the ocean. You will have a couple of people at a time at your table, while across the aisle, PSA will have 100's of people lined up waiting to submit their cards.

Rick

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by rickyb80

I agree with you. How can we solve this?

The way this is stopped is to stop submitting, stop buying, and stop consigning.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by rickyb80

I agree with you. How can we solve this?

Well, based on those last few responses, I suppose there’s nothing we can do to solve it. Maybe law enforcement will do something. Clearly the bulk of the collecting community and resulting profiteers desire no changes whatsoever.

As so many correctly predicted, Brent and his tenets will prevail.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Well, based on those last few responses, I suppose there’s nothing we can do to solve it. Maybe law enforcement will do something. Clearly the bulk of the collecting community and resulting profiteers desire no changes whatsoever.

As so many correctly predicted, Brent and his tenets will prevail.

This what we are up against.....sadly everything is priced in.

Sometimes you just have to go your own way or accept it......it’s to stressful to allow it to bother me anymore..l

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

This what we are up against.....sadly everything is priced in.

Sometimes you just have to go your own way or accept it......it’s to stressful to allow it to bother me anymore..l

Yeah, you're right. At least I have memorabilia to fall back on. Stuff that they can't or won't ever slab, thank God.

I'm kind of done with cards after all this. The money definitely outweighs the ethics in this hobby.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by rickyb80

I agree with you. How can we solve this?

A lot of folks have been putting in quite a bit of work online. Now when I say online, I mean that folks have been researching old sales, comparing scans, sending out emails, posting on forums, etc. However, outside of the digital world, nothing really has been done. This would involve approaching card trimmers at shows, setting up tables, handing out flyers, arranging meetings, etc. This is something that would require a great deal of work and none of the folks who scream at their computer screens are willing to do this. So with that being said, the only option that remains is for everyone to just wait and see what the FBI is going to do.