PSA/BGS/PWCC dispute or refund thread

[Peter_Spaeth]

Unless the card is sufficiently valuable to meet the federal amount in controversy requirement for diversity jurisdiction (assuming a non- California plaintiff), now $75,000, what's the basis for a federal claim?

[Johnny630]

What happens when PWCC runs out of money to return buyers of affective cards who request returns/refunds ? Where is their money coming from ? Is something being worked out behind the scenes with them and psa to cya ? Is psa funding them to keep up with their buy backs of bad stuff ??
Idk food for thought ??

[AddieJoss]

On Monday I received an 8k refund from PWCC for 7 cards I returned. 3 were clearly altered (only because I found before photos) and the other 4 were on a list out there but I couldn’t find the evidence myself.

Cory Weiser

[bounce]

Originally Posted by AddieJoss

On Monday I received an 8k refund from PWCC for 7 cards I returned. 3 were clearly altered (only because I found before photos) and the other 4 were on a list out there but I couldn’t find the evidence myself.

Cory Weiser

Can you still bid or did you get banned? Wondering if the previous person who said that happened to them was a one off, or ongoing issue for requesting returns.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Does anyone have any dealings to report here?

[Johnny630]

No responsibility for any card doctor, they won’t be held responsible. GM is like F them Prove it I got it in a PSA Holder so up yours....you can’t touch me....nobody in the past who got caught doctoring cards has ever been charged or held criminally responsible...these guys will continue to get around this using surrogates to submit and auction houses will only take cards in holders from people with no bad history in other words doctors will have other people submit the cards to the AH for them....the cycle will continue

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

No responsibility for any card doctor, they won’t be held responsible. GM is like F them Prove it I got it in a PSA Holder so up yours....you can’t touch me....nobody in the past who got caught doctoring cards has ever been charged or held criminally responsible...these guys will continue to get around this using surrogates to submit and auction houses will only take cards in holders from people with no bad history in other words doctors will have other people submit the cards to the AH for them....the cycle will continue

nice to see people getting their money back. They cycle may continue but will be not as big as I would assume PSA paying out thousands will make them more observant for future grading...

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Does anyone have any dealings to report here?

Sadly, most collectors who've been taken to the cleaners and victimized don't even know it (and likely never will).

It is a relatively small percentage of collectors who frequent these boards, and unless the word gets out to a mass audience, the "Bad Actor Facilitators" (meaning PSA and PWCC) are largely off the hook.

Perhaps word will spread a bit further in Chicago, the first week of August.

[swarmee]

Uffdah responded on blowout that he has been reimbursed by PWCC for his PSA 10 Musial and additional ones that were fingered.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Sadly, most collectors who've been taken to the cleaners and victimized don't even know it (and likely never will).

It is a relatively small percentage of collectors who frequent these boards, and unless the word gets out to a mass audience, the "Bad Actor Facilitators" (meaning PSA and PWCC) are largely off the hook.

Perhaps word will spread a bit further in Chicago, the first week of August.

I think if PSA /pwcc sent an email to all prior submitters buyers and told them about this issue and to submit that would get them off the hook when a buyer later 'learns' of the issue years later, perhaps when a wronged buyer submits to an auction house 4 years from now (and first learns of the issue) the statute of limitations being argued as a defense if the required times passes i would think would indeed get them off the hook

The defense may work either way but its more solid PSA/PWCC and the like just notified everyone to look at their tainted cards potentially.

Yes more claims will be submitted as well so there is risk/reward. But it appears even if the card market tanks, everyone will be paid fairly years from now and everyone will agree what their damages are from a sale the past 2 or 3 years.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Does anyone have any dealings to report here?

apparently none.

[Stonepony]

A couple months ago I received an unsolicited email from PWCC that they suspected a 1969 PSA 9 Clemente I had won the year prior might be altered. I sent it to them and a week later i received a check for the full auction price. Nothing to sign etc. Brief communication and refund.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Where is their money coming from ?

"over 17,000 cards, lots, and sets up for bid in our 6th Auction of 2019."

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Unless the card is sufficiently valuable to meet the federal amount in controversy requirement for diversity jurisdiction (assuming a non- California plaintiff), now $75,000, what's the basis for a federal claim?

You would have to meet that threshold, which given what a lot of high grade cards go for coupled with the number of doctored cards a lot of people will have, should pose no problem for many potential plantiffs. I agree though that a number of potential submitters will have to file in state court. Assuming PSA wants to stay out of federal court, I'm surprised they didn't require all cases be brought in state court.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

You would have to meet that threshold, which given what a lot of high grade cards go for coupled with the number of doctored cards a lot of people will have, should pose no problem for many potential plantiffs. I agree though that a number of potential submitters will have to file in state court. Assuming PSA wants to stay out of federal court, I'm surprised they didn't require all cases be brought in state court.

Maybe a stupid question...but what could be the benefit of PSA moving a case from state to federal court?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

Maybe a stupid question...but what could be the benefit of PSA moving a case from state to federal court?

PSA can't move a case from state to federal court, if it's brought in state court.

As to Corey's initial thoughts, I don't see any basis to speculate that a plaintiff in one of these cases would be better off in federal court if he had the choice. Too many assumptions there with no facts.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

You would have to meet that threshold, which given what a lot of high grade cards go for coupled with the number of doctored cards a lot of people will have, should pose no problem for many potential plantiffs. I agree though that a number of potential submitters will have to file in state court. Assuming PSA wants to stay out of federal court, I'm surprised they didn't require all cases be brought in state court.

My understanding, FWIW from a buddy I went to law school with who now practices there, is that you don't really want to be in the Central District of California as a plaintiff. He won't even take a case if it will go there. Orange County is also bad, as I understand it. That forum selection clause PSA has, if enforceable, is a huge problem for a lot of plaintiffs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

My understanding, FWIW from a buddy I went to law school with who now practices there, is that you don't really want to be in the Central District of California as a plaintiff. He won't even take a case if it will go there. Orange County is also bad, as I understand it. That forum selection clause PSA has, if enforceable, is a huge problem for a lot of plaintiffs.

Doesn't that strike you as an awfully big generalization?

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Doesn't that strike you as an awfully big generalization?

No, not really. Yes, plaintiffs win cases in the Central District, I'm sure. Particularly if they are corporate plaintiffs I suspect. There is a reason why there is a forum selection clause. It isn't because that is a neutral forum. You know that as well as I do.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

No, not really. Yes, plaintiffs win cases in the Central District, I'm sure. Particularly if they are corporate plaintiffs I suspect. There is a reason why there is a forum selection clause. It isn't because that is a neutral forum. You know that as well as I do.

There are probably thousands of pending cases in those federal and state courts and countless thousands which have been decided. To make a sweeping statement such as you have made, based on what your law school buddy says, seems ridiculous to me. They are located IN Orange County which doubtless is why they selected that forum, most such clauses select the home forum as a matter of convenience so they don't have to defend litigation in far away places. If you are going to make a sweeping statement like plaintiffs have very little chance in two huge districts in California you need much more support than you have offered. You're smarter than that, Kenny, I know you are.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There are probably thousands of pending cases in those federal and state courts and countless thousands which have been decided. To make a sweeping statement such as you have made, based on what your law school buddy says, seems ridiculous to me. They are located IN Orange County which doubtless is why they selected that forum, most such clauses select the home forum as a matter of convenience so they don't have to defend litigation in far away places. If you are going to make some sweeping statement like plaintiffs have very little chance in two huge districts you need more support than you have offered.

LOL, OK. I bet at your firm, you don't ever talk about where the venue is good or bad, or which judges you think will help or hurt you, right? Phuuulease.