1966 Topps High's - Any uncut sheets or partial sheets known?

[Kevvyg1026]

I have been keep track of the new ebay listings each day, and keeping a running tabulation. These counts were then organized into the row positions. So starting in mid-July through listings posted 8/19, the counts look like the following for average, standard deviation, median, high, low:


A: 78.4 17.9 76.0 108.0 54.0
B: 45.7 11.0 42.0 70.0 32.0
C: 49.1 8.1 48.0 69.0 40.0
D: 81.2 23.1 81.0 138.0 48.0
E: 82.4 17.5 77.0 107.0 59.0
F: 46.7 14.7 43.0 77.0 33.0
G: 46.3 9.0 47.0 67.0 35.0

So, these counts certainly give the impression that the pattern was four rows (B, C, F, G) the same frequency as each other and three rows (A, D, E) the same; i.e., a pattern of 4x3 and 3x4.

Some of the "rarer" cards that pop up:
517 (W. Sox variation) - 32 cards have come up for sale
563 (Tovar) - 33 cards
566 (Cuellar) - 38 cards
526 (Twins) - 38 cards
527 (Navarro) - 35 cards
528 (Gonder) - 36 cards
524 (Giants rookies) - 39 cards
545 (Green) - 34 cards
555 (Perranowski) - 36 cards
559 (Pena) - 39 cards

Conversely, traditionally listed SP cards 580 (B Williams) and 550 (McCovey) have both had over 70 copies listed.

[stlcardsfan]

Continued great analysis. Of the rarer cards you listed, not counting the checklist, the one that I had the most trouble with was Green. He was one of the last I needed. None of the other really stand out to me, at least in my experience, in completing the set. Some of the other last ones I remember needing were Snyder, Klimchock, McClain. I agree with your assessment of McCovey and Williams. Really a great thread.

[BillP]

Originally Posted by stlcardsfan

Continued great analysis. Of the rarer cards you listed, not counting the checklist, the one that I had the most trouble with was Green. He was one of the last I needed. None of the other really stand out to me, at least in my experience, in completing the set. Some of the other last ones I remember needing were Snyder, Klimchock, McClain. I agree with your assessment of McCovey and Williams. Really a great thread.

2nd that, lets keep this topic going as for years it's been debated. my sleeper tough card was always snyder. even now a centered one. the opposite end was priddy. available any day. kind of like duliba in 67 highs

[Kevvyg1026]

I've completed and then divested multiple complete runs of this set over the years. I typically had trouble obtaining cards of Cuellar (566), Purkey (551), Mahaffey (570), and Queen (556) but I could find cards of 591 (Jackson/Shirley), Perry (598), Cards Rookies (544), and the two team cards (526, 583) as long as I was willing to pay more than I really thought those cards were worth.

Now I suspect that #591 is on a bottom row on one of the half-sheets, but because it is at an edge (i.e., it is a leading card), it might be less susceptible to factory damage. I suspect the other cards (526, 583, 598) are all on rows that are in the middle of the half-sheets, and therefore not too affected by the cutting/sorting processes used by Topps.

Conversely, I suspect that some of the cards like #551 (which is in row G with Shirley), 528 (Gonder), 556 (Queen), or Cuellar (566) may be on a short-print row that is on the edge of the half-sheet (probably in Shirley row). It would be nice to find some miscuts to answer these types of questions.

I also find it interesting that Skowron (590), Pena (569), Oliver (541), Raymond (586), or Nicholson (576) haven't shown up on anyone's "difficult to find" list. To quote a childhood book, "curiouser and curiouser".

[stlcardsfan]

Back in about 1975 I received a huge lot of Topps 1955-1974 cards from an older cousin. In that lot were about 150 cards from ‘66. Unfortunately only about 8-10 of those were high #s. But at least there were some! Thinking about it years later it was probably one pack from the high series. When I started to build my set about 30 years later I felt very fortunate because of that small group it included the following, some of which are considered valuable and maybe at one time thought to be short printed:
Williams, Clarke, Perry (the miscut one I posted earlier in this thread), 544, Tony Taylor, And a few others I can’t recall. Not sure if any of those cards grouped together means anything but I thought I would share.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

I have been keep track of the new ebay listings each day, and keeping a running tabulation. These counts were then organized into the row positions. So starting in mid-July through listings posted 8/19, the counts look like the following for average, standard deviation, median, high, low:


A: 78.4 17.9 76.0 108.0 54.0
B: 45.7 11.0 42.0 70.0 32.0
C: 49.1 8.1 48.0 69.0 40.0
D: 81.2 23.1 81.0 138.0 48.0
E: 82.4 17.5 77.0 107.0 59.0
F: 46.7 14.7 43.0 77.0 33.0
G: 46.3 9.0 47.0 67.0 35.0

So, these counts certainly give the impression that the pattern was four rows (B, C, F, G) the same frequency as each other and three rows (A, D, E) the same; i.e., a pattern of 4x3 and 3x4.

Some of the "rarer" cards that pop up:
517 (W. Sox variation) - 32 cards have come up for sale
563 (Tovar) - 33 cards
566 (Cuellar) - 38 cards
526 (Twins) - 38 cards
527 (Navarro) - 35 cards
528 (Gonder) - 36 cards
524 (Giants rookies) - 39 cards
545 (Green) - 34 cards
555 (Perranowski) - 36 cards
559 (Pena) - 39 cards

Conversely, traditionally listed SP cards 580 (B Williams) and 550 (McCovey) have both had over 70 copies listed.

Thanks for those numbers. Though doing the math, the ratio of rows A, D and E to rows B, C, F and G is approximately 1.71:1. But since the ratio has to be whole numbers, that is closer to a 5:3 ratio (1.66:1), not a 4:3 (1.33:1) ratio.

[Kevvyg1026]

That is correct regarding the ratio. However, this is only one month of continuous data and such a snapshot is most likely not reflective of what transpired 50+ years ago. I do hope, that over time, enough data will emerge to tell a more complete story.

[Kevvyg1026]

1966_high_uncut.jpg

Found this partial. I believe that this firmly establishes that 582, 597, 592, and 549 are in what I call row D, headed by Taylor. This run of 4 cards would be at the end of that row.

It also shows that row E (headed by Salmon) has 587, 531, and 553 at the end of that row.

[JollyElm]

Okay, here's what I got so far...





LMK if there's anything that should be edited/changed/added/subtracted/whatever.

[Kevvyg1026]

You can put 525 under Choo Choo (561) and 542 under 525. You can also fill in the cards to the left of McCovey in the top frame with the Salmon, through Williams cards, and put the first 5 cards headed by Taylor (through 542) in the row above that (i.e., we know 9 of the 11 cards in the row headed by Taylor, but the cards in columns 6 and 7 are currently not firmly established.

We now know all 11 cards in the row headed by Salmon.

So Taylor row should be: 585 530 560 571 542 X X 582 597 592 549

and Salmon row is: 594 535 575 580 550 533 579 537 587 531 553


I do strongly suspect that the two Xs in Taylor row are 595, 523 but that is, as yet, unconfirmed.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Thanks for those numbers. Though doing the math, the ratio of rows A, D and E to rows B, C, F and G is approximately 1.71:1. But since the ratio has to be whole numbers, that is closer to a 5:3 ratio (1.66:1), not a 4:3 (1.33:1) ratio.

You would expect that because set collectors are taking one of each card off the market leaving excess of the cards printed four times.

[BillP]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

You can put 525 under Choo Choo (561) and 542 under 525. You can also fill in the cards to the left of McCovey in the top frame with the Salmon, through Williams cards, and put the first 5 cards headed by Taylor (through 542) in the row above that (i.e., we know 9 of the 11 cards in the row headed by Taylor, but the cards in columns 6 and 7 are currently not firmly established.

We now know all 11 cards in the row headed by Salmon.

So Taylor row should be: 585 530 560 571 542 X X 582 597 592 549

and Salmon row is: 594 535 575 580 550 533 579 537 587 531 553


I do strongly suspect that the two Xs in Taylor row are 595, 523 but that is, as yet, unconfirmed.

if we know 595 is below 598 then doesnt that mean that we know the placement of the 598 583 569 string and then 542 is below 583?

[Kevvyg1026]

542 is to the left of the potential spot I suspect is occupied by 595.

I still need a miscut to firmly identify this, but I suspect that 598, 583, & 569 are in columns 6, 7, & 8 of row C whereas 542 would be in column 5 of row D, with 595 & 523 in columns 6 & 7 of row D.

[BillP]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

542 is to the left of the potential spot I suspect is occupied by 595.

I still need a miscut to firmly identify this, but I suspect that 598, 583, & 569 are in columns 6, 7, & 8 of row C whereas 542 would be in column 5 of row D, with 595 & 523 in columns 6 & 7 of row D.

I agree. I'd take that leap. With this are all the non SP rows i.e. the 4 per sheet now identified? so all that is left are the suspected true sp's albeit placement on some are still unknown?

Great stuff.

[Kevvyg1026]

If 595 & 523 are in row D, then we know all cards in row A, D, & E (i.e., the non-SP) rows and what remains are to identify the placement of 6 cards from row B, 4 cards from row C, and 3 cards from row G, all of which should be cards identified as SPs (except for 517, W. Sox variation).

[toppcat]

SP's (real and imagined) are looking like a combination or influence of:

• Composition or technical issues (pulling a row, subbing another real quick) prior to printing
• Number of impressions per card on the sheets
• Card coordinate on sheet
• Superstars being called SP's instead of "high demand"
• Collation and Packaging Damage
• Original Distribution skewing pops
• Boxes being opened in the old hobby days with bad collation
• After Market Events (1975 Card Collectors Co fire) skewing remaining inventories

Most years seem to follow a 4:3 or 3:2 ratio for overprints but some like 1967 seem to have an outlier row.

[Kevvyg1026]

As mentioned in an earlier Post, the 67 highs most likely had one row printed 5x, one row 4x, and the other five rows 3x. Then, all the other factors mentioned above also came into play.

[BillP]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

If 595 & 523 are in row D, then we know all cards in row A, D, & E (i.e., the non-SP) rows and what remains are to identify the placement of 6 cards from row B, 4 cards from row C, and 3 cards from row G, all of which should be cards identified as SPs (except for 517, W. Sox variation).

There is an ebay offer for a miscut 517 w. sox on right now that has a thin black/grey down the bottom half of the right of the card. I think Ill but it just to remind me of this thread. My guess it's a b or c row card. What other sp cards that are left based on miscuts, i.e. very wide right border could be the other 2? guesses?

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

As mentioned in an earlier Post, the 67 highs most likely had one row printed 5x, one row 4x, and the other five rows 3x. Then, all the other factors mentioned above also came into play.

I'm thinking the fifth 5X row was a last minute sub for one of the others. It's too out of sequence, even for Topps, otherwise.

[JollyElm]

Updated...

[BillP]

thx, I think the 598 583 569 can go in next to bell and 595 below 598 next time you update.

thx for this graphic.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by BillP

thx, I think the 598 583 569 can go in next to bell and 595 below 598 next time you update.

thx for this graphic.

If those are definite, LMK and I'll add them right now.

[Kevvyg1026]

I believe you should merge the two images into one. The one headed by Northrup goes on top, then the image leading with Roggenburk etc goes at the bottom of the other image. That row with Roggenburk is the tail end of the Taylor row.

Such a mosh up would represent the first eight rows of one of the slits. The pattern Northrup, Perranowsi, Hoerner, Taylor, Salmon, Northrup, Mantilla, Shirley is accurate.

There are also miscuts that support Row B, headed by Perranowski, being under Row G, headed by Shirley. And there are miscuts that show some cards from the Salmon row are at bottom of the sheet.

So, one slit is pretty much guaranteed to look like (leading card given): Northrup, Perranowski, Hoerner, Taylor, Salmon, Northrup, Mantilla, Shirley, Perrnowski, Hoerner, Taylor, Salmon.

[Kevvyg1026]

Here's a miscut of the 7th series checklist which shows that it is at the edge of a sheet. Hence,it must be at the end of either row B (Perranowski), row C (Hoerner), or row G (Shirley).

1966_517_edge.jpg

[stlcardsfan]

If there is one thing I have learned here is that my set is incomplete. On a mission for W, Sox checklist.

[BillP]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Here's a miscut of the 7th series checklist which shows that it is at the edge of a sheet. Hence,it must be at the end of either row B (Perranowski), row C (Hoerner), or row G (Shirley).

Attachment 415079

thats the one i'm thinking of picking up.

[JollyElm]

LMK if this looks right...



The two original graphics that were merged to create this one have been saved, so they're still on hand if we need to revert to them for some reason.

[Kevvyg1026]

Looks great. Thank you.

Could you make a version, as yet not fully confirmed, with 595 & 523 in the two open spots in the Taylor row, and 598, 583, & 569 in columns 6, 7, 8 of the Hoerner row?

[BillP]

My opinion only, but i think queen 556 is the bottom right card on the sheet in the 591 row. I spent some time looking at the cuts of this card and the right border which many times is very wide. wide enough to suggest a border card. plus it commands a premium, these cards on the bottom row seem to over time have that element of premium, 591, 540 etc.
not saying play it in the jolly elm model yet, but throwing it out as a suspect.
billp

[Kevvyg1026]

There are 17 cards whose positions are still not confirmed. These are 517, 523, 528, 532, 538, 541, 552, 556, 566, 569, 570, 576, 583, 586, 590, 595, & 598.

However, we know that:

a. 517 is at the right edge in either Row B, C, or G.

b. I strongly suspect that 595 & 523 occupy the two open spots in the Taylor row, with the sequence 598, 583, 569 occupying columns 6, 7, & 8 in the Hoerner row.

c. 532/552 are adjacent to each other, but the row is unknown.

d. 576 is above either a manager card or a rookie card.

[Kevvyg1026]

There is a miscut where 556 appears (hard to tell) to be above a regular card, not a RC or Mgr card, which might preclude it being on the right edge.

[BillP]

I was looking at one from Dean's on ebay ends in 2546 (out of stock). The back is the key. The top is cut off within the salmon area but the bottom is not. This led me to believe that it belongs at least in the 591 row. Since we haven't had any more clues on fronts I'm looking at back's.

[Kevvyg1026]

Here's the one I saw for Queen (556)MC_28.jpg

[Kevvyg1026]

and Nicholson (576).MC_48_A_nicholson.jpg

[BillP]

Ok, another leap, 576 is above 552 tebbetts.

[Kevvyg1026]

Perhaps, but also possible that it is above 549 (Senator Rookies) or above 574 (Mets Rookies) or even 529 (White Sox rookies)

[JollyElm]

Since this layout example is theoretical, let's go in that direction and call this whole thing E=mc², Emplacement equals Miscut Cards squared...

[BillP]

Great thx! only 12 to go and we know 517 is on the right border.

[Kevvyg1026]

Besides searching for miscuts of the missing 12+ cards, the following miscuts could prove helpful:
1. above 533, 579, 582, 597, 592, 549
2. below 558, 573, 536, 529, 572, 574, 548, 524, 539, 596, 551, 543

either left, right, above or below 517 (W. Sox variation)

[Kevvyg1026]

The pattern I observed for many of the 77 card print series was as follows:

Slit 1: A, B, C, D, E, A, F, G, B, C, D, E
Slit 2: x1, x2, A, F, G, B, C, D, E, A, F, G

x1 & x2 varied between series and year but I have not seen any pattern to that Topps procedure other than that shown above.

In 1965, series 5, x1 & x2 were row B and row C (Blanchard & Drabowsky); in 1965, series 7, x1 & x2 were row C (Wyatt) and row E (Hiller). I have not acquired enough information to determine the pattern used in series 6.

In 1966, I haven't completely determine the pattern for series 5, but the row with Downing and the row with Kuenn are repeated at the top of a sheet, so I think that x1 & x2 were rows B & C. I don't have sufficient information for series 6, but for series 7, the miscuts and information I've seen, lead me to think that x1 & x2 were rows D & E (taylor & Salmon).

and for series 6, 1969, x1 & x2 were C (newman) & D (green).

In 1967, they used rows A (Pinson) & F (Rohr) for x1 & x2 at the top of the 2nd slit in series 7.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

The pattern I observed for many of the 77 card print series was as follows:

Slit 1: A, B, C, D, E, A, F, G, B, C, D, E
Slit 2: x1, x2, A, F, G, B, C, D, E, A, F, G

x1 & x2 varied between series and year but I have not seen any pattern to that Topps procedure other than that shown above.

In 1965, series 5, x1 & x2 were row B and row C (Blanchard & Drabowsky); in 1965, series 7, x1 & x2 were row C (Wyatt) and row E (Hiller). I have not acquired enough information to determine the pattern used in series 6.

In 1966, I haven't completely determine the pattern for series 5, but the row with Downing and the row with Kuenn are repeated at the top of a sheet, so I think that x1 & x2 were rows B & C. I don't have sufficient information for series 6, but for series 7, the miscuts and information I've seen, lead me to think that x1 & x2 were rows D & E (taylor & Salmon).

and for series 6, 1969, x1 & x2 were C (newman) & D (green).

In 1967, they used rows A (Pinson) & F (Rohr) for x1 & x2 at the top of the 2nd slit in series 7.

This 100% matches up for 1967. The 5X of row A is weird and probably unintended originally and the Belanger row used to cause people fits before eBay (I recall posting about the row years ago and Ted Z mentioned all 11 cards in that row were the last ones he obtained). But this explains the row distributions from canvassing eBay-well done!

[JollyElm]

Not sure if this helps the effort at all, but after digging through all of my doubles, I found miscuts of both versions of #517. Unfortunately, they each only show a tiny, tiny bit of an adjoining card, but who knows...

1966topps517wsoxA.jpg1966topps517wsoxB.jpg

1966topps517whitesoxA.jpg1966topps517whitesoxB.jpg

On the "White Sox" card, it is clearly beneath a rookies card with a light blue nameplate, or a team card.

[Kevvyg1026]

Thanks. The White Sox version is from the series 6 printing. However, the RCs in that series are: Cubs, Orioles, Red Sox, Yankees, Giants (511), Pirates, & Braves (518). The team cards are: Phillies & A's.

The W. Sox card is interesting. The blue at top edge may eliminate 552, 556, 570, and 590 from being adjacent to the checklist, but 528, 538, 541 (too light?), 566, & 586 are certainly still possibilities.

[JollyElm]

I remember reading posts in this thread regarding "White Sox" being a part of the sixth series printing, but let me play devil's advocate for a moment. Is it possible that that version could have also appeared in the last series (along with the "W. Sox" cards)? Since there was no 'future' checklist to print, because it was the last series of cards for the year, did they double up on #517...and possibly have the two different versions coming off of the presses at the same time? I mean, is there a way to definitively rule out that scenario, circumstantial evidence aside? That would really throw a monkey wrench into the works, wouldn't it? Ha ha.

[Kevvyg1026]

In every year I have researched, Topps printed checklist 1 twice in the first print run. Then in print run 2, both checklists 2 & 3 appeared, in print run 3, checklists 3 & 4 appeared, in print run 4, checklists 4 & 5, in print run 5, checklists 5 & 6, in print run 6, checklists 6 & 7, Then in the last run, only checklist 7 appeared. Also, there are only 77 unique spots in the sheet, and we have 77 cards (523-598 + 517). I sincerely doubt whether there were two different versions of the checklist 7 in the series 7 printing.

Plus, I have found the White Sox version marked up through number 522 but not after.

[BillP]

Great find. My vote is for 538. The black broader at the top ruled out some of the candidates for me. I think 586 is to light so is 528. That left 566 and 538 and based on the black boarder top right corner I went with 538.

[BillP]

Originally Posted by BillP

Great find. My vote is for 538. The black broader at the top ruled out some of the candidates for me. I think 586 is to light so is 528. That left 566 and 538 and based on the black boarder top right corner I went with 538.

Also, the latest ebay 1966 topps high listing by Greg Morris has 4 severly offcut highs that look like they could piece together. 590, 566, 552 and 562. a couple have borders on the left from another card. Taking the liberty to assume that the seller originally purchased these at the same time out of a pack(seems right because who would have purchased these individually like that to comple a collection). That these 4 could fit together. For 552, no 532 was listed in this grouping. There are others that has offcut boarders but not as severe. Check it out and comment on your opinion.

billp

[ejstel]

Hi not sure if you have checked but it might be a good idea to check some of the premiere sports auction houses. 50-60's uncut sheets usually end up there $$$. Also on the sites they tend to leave up completed auctions...might be a good way to get some pics of sheets.

Best,
Ed

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[G1911]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I remember reading posts in this thread regarding "White Sox" being a part of the sixth series printing, but let me play devil's advocate for a moment. Is it possible that that version could have also appeared in the last series (along with the "W. Sox" cards)? Since there was no 'future' checklist to print, because it was the last series of cards for the year, did they double up on #517...and possibly have the two different versions coming off of the presses at the same time? I mean, is there a way to definitively rule out that scenario, circumstantial evidence aside? That would really throw a monkey wrench into the works, wouldn't it? Ha ha.

Just noting that the "White Sox" miscut must have been on a 6th series sheet, not a 7th, due to the bright white stock that was not used for the 7th series. It's possible both versions were issued in series 7 until we finish a sheet layout and can then know one way or another; but this particular example certainly was a 6th series card.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by G1911

Just noting that the "White Sox" miscut must have been on a 6th series sheet, not a 7th, due to the bright white stock that was not used for the 7th series. It's possible both versions were issued in series 7 until we finish a sheet layout and can then know one way or another; but this particular example certainly was a 6th series card.

It has to be #518 Braves Rookies above the #517 Checklist White Sox version, it is the only rookie card between 447-522 with a violet(?) name stripe and neither of the two team cards in that series have a violet(?) stripe.