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  #1  
Old 09-05-2011, 08:10 AM
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Steven
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Default How difficult is a collector grade t202 set?

Im debating my next set to start. Overall how hard is this set? I count 7 cobbs, but 2 seem to be tougher than the others. 132 cards isnt bad and these cards keep popping into my head like the cracker jacks did when i started that...Just looking for a collector grade here, prefer raw as the slabs will just be broken. Are there special pages for these cards I cant find as well?

Thanks, way go Tigers sweeping the ChiSx!
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  #2  
Old 09-05-2011, 09:28 AM
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Trevor Hocking
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Well I have been working on a lower end set my self (all SGC graded) and with this set I would like to ask you what is your definition of collector grade? T202's have a tendency of grading very low to there many factory defualts, like the two center folds and the miscuts. So I just tried to go for set with great eye appeal and in lower grade. By doing this I was able to build a great looking set at a really decent price. By the way I also moved from Cracker Jacks to Triple Folders, it must be a natural transition. Good luck with the quest, I am still on mine and found there are many TOUGH card to find in this set. Here is the link to my SGC registry http://www.sgccardregistry.com/set.a...7&userset=1637

Trevor
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  #3  
Old 09-05-2011, 09:37 AM
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I know Geno Wagner (HercDriver) has been doing a master t202 set for awhile now as well. Might want to talk to him about it.

Not exactly easy but not as tough as some.

Joshua
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  #4  
Old 09-05-2011, 10:52 AM
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Geno W@gn&r
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Default T202 set

I'd say it's not a tough set to complete, depending on how you go about it. If you want the basic set, it will just depend on your checkbook, for the most part. If you want to chase different backs, then it will take a lot of patience. There are three possible backs - red, black 649, and black 30. I don't know for a fact, but I imagine each card can be found with a red or black back. However, I don't think every card can be found with a Black Factory 30 back.

As for the Cobbs - there are a lot of them, but they are relatively cheap compared to the Cobbs of other sets. You'll find the scarcity of the Cobbs is not the same either - for instance, I think the Desperate Slide for Third card is the toughest. As for the rest of the cards, you'll find some that are scarcer than others as you go along, so I'm not sure how they were printed. Others that have always been reported scarce tend not to be, like the Birmingham card. If you don't like Chief Meyers, than don't go after this set - he's everywhere!

The set is beautiful and underrated. I even buy lots of end/middle panels just because they are cheap and fun! If only they were trimmed in T205 gold...

Take Care,
Geno
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  #5  
Old 09-05-2011, 11:28 AM
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Thanks for the info Geno. I never really studied the set but always thought it was just an amazing looking and creative set. I never had thought about T205 Gold WOW could you imagin how cool this set would have been!!! It's funny you mentioned Chief Meyers he was one of the reasons I started on this set. He was born in the same city and state I was (Riverside, CA) and is in our citys sports hall of fame. I have donated a few of his items to the museum for display including some of his T202's

Oh and rainier2004 dont tell anyone else how cool this set is
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  #6  
Old 09-05-2011, 02:42 PM
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Thanks for all the info here. Funny thing, my debate is between this set and the t205's...maybe ill start both. Im really excited to delve deeper into this era and the tobacco cards.
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  #7  
Old 09-05-2011, 06:05 PM
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I've been building & upgrading T202s and T205s for quite some time. The T205 have several very very scarce cards (or at least commonly accepted variations) that make the set much more difficult to complete. Both my experience and the "pop reports" of the T202s lead me to believe that there really aren't too many cards that are significantly harder to find than the rest (there are some condition rarities, I guess). Specifically the Mathewson/Devlin (Giants or Rustlers) combos are more difficult and I have had some trouble with "Carrigan Blocks His Man" with Carrigan/[not Honus] Wagner on the flanks and "Hartzel Strikes Out" over the years.

. Before the advent of the internet and then the grading cards companies the "Birmingham Home Run" T202 card was considered more difficult -- in the classic Lipset book for instance.
The far more popular T205 set has several much more difficult cards that can be very difficult to locate (and pay for) and that doesn't even include the variations based on the back of the cards (Hoblitzel[l], Moran, Wilhelm and now Mathewson).
Of course a set collector can determine how much he or she wants to "master the set" if you will pardon the pun.
My vote is with the T202s if that wasn't clear.....
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  #8  
Old 09-06-2011, 06:19 PM
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Brian, Trevor and Geno summed it up pretty well. The set can be obtained at a fairly reasonable price with patients. I think the Cobbs are the most underpriced Cobbs out there, the only one I hated paying good money for was the Cobb center panel with the Indian end panels, doesn't seem much like a Cobb to me. The Speaker/Woods cards are really nice.

As pointed out the Matty/Devlin's are the toughest to obtain but they do come around. As brian pointed out there are some commons that are tougher to obtain, you tend to find them out by constantly losing at normal buying prices, you just need to amp up your bid to get them. In the 10 years I have been buying them there always seems to be people in the know about them.

It is my favorite set I put the set together about 5 years ago, and trying to obtain all of them with the different backs, in no big hurry.

Trevor, I thought I had a nice lower grade set but you really went for the lower grade with nice results. As long as you don't mind the center crease, they can be obtained at good prices.

Have fun with it,

Lee
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  #9  
Old 09-06-2011, 07:05 PM
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Default T20..

I scared of all of them..just feel I might not have the paitence ( and pocketbook) ... I do have about a half dozen T20...? the mecca double folders...all avail for trade

RalG
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  #10  
Old 09-06-2011, 07:30 PM
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Thank Lee! Actually your set was the reason I decided to go for the lower grade with great eye appeal, plus of course the cost You can really get some nice cards for the grade in the T202 set. I love SGC but they just hammer these cards when it comes to grading them. I don't think they take into account that THEY WHERE FOLDED FROM THE FACTORY. But hay don't tell them that as I have bought so many 30's and 40's that look like 60's. The set really dose take patients to get the right cards for the price but for me that is the fun of building sets. I love your set Lee and I really like how you are going for the different backs a little to nerdy for me (oh wait I collect baseball cards) well anyways keep up the hunt boys!
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  #11  
Old 09-06-2011, 08:03 PM
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Default T202 backs

One of these days, we'll have to try to put together a Master List of backs for the set and see if we can confirm it with all three backs. Mine are buried among a ton of boxes from a recent move, otherwise I'd start the effort off this week. It's weird how you rarely see Black 30's, but yet some cards seem to be quite prevalent with that back, like Cree Rolls Home. Like I said above, I don't know that a Black 30 set is possible, but it would be interesting to see what's out there...

Take Care,
Geno
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  #12  
Old 09-06-2011, 10:04 PM
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This has become my favorite set to collect over the past year plus. As Lee pointed out, it's amazing how you can get really nice Cobb's at the prices you can... not to mention Matty (got a nice 3 for around $100), Johnson (got a REALLY nice 4 for under $200!), and to be able to get two guys like Baker/Collins or Speaker/Wood on a single card is awesome. I've found I enjoy receiving these cards more than any other set because I get to turn them over and read all that great period text. Friends and more importantly fiancee all think they're the coolest of my many card types. I'm not sure if I'll ever complete the set, but am still picking up any nice HoFers I come accross... was lucky enough to pick up a really nice Black 30 Cobb/Moriarty from a board member a few months back, my only Black 30. Good luck Rainier, hope you go for it.. and incredible collection Trevor.
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  #13  
Old 09-06-2011, 11:44 PM
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Seemed wrong to talk T202s without showing any. A few of my favorites, all mid/low grade, but nice eye appeal.

BTW- Ranier, I have 2 raw T202's in large size toploaders. I'm still looking for sleeves big enough to protect the graded cases.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg T202 Speaker Wood front.jpg (78.0 KB, 265 views)
File Type: jpg T202 Baker Collins.jpg (75.8 KB, 262 views)
File Type: jpg T202 Cobb Moriarty 2.jpg (76.4 KB, 261 views)
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  #14  
Old 09-07-2011, 12:21 AM
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One more note, if you are looking to buy PSA, always make sure you get a scan of the back I have seen way too many that have really bad backs for their grade.

As far as the Black factory 30's I have been able to track 63 of them and own 28. I believe it is 55 different subjects.

Lee
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  #15  
Old 09-07-2011, 12:58 AM
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Trevor Hocking
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Now you guys have me thinking. I am going to have to check my backs to see what backs I have for what cards. I never really thought or cared about it before. I will get a list together soon. In the mean time here are some of my favs from my set. All with clean backs!!!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg us74968.jpg (77.7 KB, 245 views)
File Type: jpg us108342.jpg (77.1 KB, 251 views)
File Type: jpg us74938.jpg (78.1 KB, 251 views)
File Type: jpg us74962.jpg (78.4 KB, 249 views)
File Type: jpg us74959.jpg (78.4 KB, 248 views)
File Type: jpg us74992.jpg (78.3 KB, 257 views)
File Type: jpg us74936.jpg (77.1 KB, 254 views)
File Type: jpg us74918.jpg (78.1 KB, 254 views)
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  #16  
Old 09-07-2011, 11:26 AM
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Trevor, That is only the second Turquoise Evers I have ever seen. Is that why you posted it with the other one?

Lee
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  #17  
Old 09-07-2011, 11:31 AM
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I absolutely love the look of these cards (colorful player portraits, action shots) but know nothing of their value. I saw one of the J. Knight/W. Johnson in PSA Good 2 condition around the $190 mark. Is that a fair price for such a card?
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  #18  
Old 09-07-2011, 12:38 PM
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I'd think $190 may be a little steep, but as mentioned earlier, eye appeal on lower grades can be fantastic so may be still be worth it?? The last 2 of that card I saw sell got $127, while a really nice 1.5 (looked like a 5, but had spots of rear paper loss) got $170+. I got an incredible PSA-4 of it about a year ago for under $200. Prices I've watched have fluctuated a fair amount.

Regarding Lee's comment about the PSA backs.. my PSA-4 Cobb has a pretty rough back.. no paper loss but lots of fading, and I have a PSA-5 that has a pretty major ink blotch on the back. That said, I also have a couple PSA's that seem undergraded, and one SGC that seems a little overgraded. From what I've heard and read on this board SGC seems to have a better overall rep with this set however.
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  #19  
Old 09-07-2011, 01:03 PM
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Trevor Hocking
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Lee,

Yes that is why I posted them together. I really didn't think the card was that tough, just really cool. I have never seen another one but for the price I paid for both I thought it was the correct price for just one. I really like variations and I thought this was a great one. Do you collect variations like this for your sets?

Hugh,

I really couldn't tell you if that is a good price without seeing the card it self. As seen here with this set T202's can really vary in condition in there given TPG grade. Also remember as stated in this thread these cards are pretty easy to find so just wait for the right card at what you think the right price is for you, patiance is your friend in collecting cards.

Trevor
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  #20  
Old 09-07-2011, 02:33 PM
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I have the turquoise evers as well. I'm on year five of my set and still need 15 cards
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  #21  
Old 09-07-2011, 07:17 PM
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Those of you that have a Torqouise Evers, what is the back?

Also as far as variations, they are few and far between. In the 11 years of being on ebay and pursueing the T202s I think I have seen fewer than 5. If anyone has any I would love to see them (please exclude minor miscuts they are quite frequent in the set.

My favorite part of the T202's is the write up on the back.

I have never figured out the pricing of the center panels with HOFers, especially Lajoie and Crawford since they don't appear on end panels. At times you can pick them up for common prices and other time you have to pay the HOFer prices.

Lee
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  #22  
Old 09-07-2011, 10:28 PM
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Default 1 card away

I have been collecting the T202 set for about 15 months and am one card away (Just Before the Battle with Wiltse/Meyers). I have 0 patience and put it together quite quickly. Never bought a huge lot either. Paid the most for a Devlin/Matty variation ($675) at the Chicago National last month. I have seen it on so many wantlists of other collectors, I probably overpaid. When these cards are all in a binder and you get to see them and turn the pages, it is a rainbow of color that stimulates the senses! I have been in love with this set forever and am thrilled to be almost complete. Go for it. You will not regret it!
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  #23  
Old 09-08-2011, 11:56 AM
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Trevor Hocking
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Ok so I have looked at the factory numbers and colors on my T202 backs and here's what I can up with.

Red Factory 649 = 1 Card #66

Red Factory 30 = 32 Cards

Black Factory 30 = 3 Cards #40, #60 (This is the green variation of the Evers card) and #116

Black Factory 649 = 61 Cards

I don't know what this means but these are the stats.
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  #24  
Old 09-08-2011, 12:31 PM
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Trevor can you show a scan of the Red 649? I have never seen one in the 11 years of actively pursuing the set. Thanks for the inputs that is right in line with the data I have accumulated.

Lee
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  #25  
Old 09-08-2011, 07:04 PM
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Default Agreed

I'd love to see a red 649 as well...never seen one...

Take Care,
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  #26  
Old 09-08-2011, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snider4prez View Post
Hugh,

I really couldn't tell you if that is a good price without seeing the card it self. As seen here with this set T202's can really vary in condition in there given TPG grade.

This is the card I was looking at:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1912-T202-Ha...#ht_500wt_1152
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  #27  
Old 09-08-2011, 08:18 PM
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I will get a scan of the red factory 649 up later tonight.

As far as that Johnson. I have seen way better cards for the money. I know it's a 2 and I think graded correctly but like I said before with time and being very picky you will find a better looking card for that price. Just my 2 cents.
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  #28  
Old 09-08-2011, 10:58 PM
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I 2nd the last comment about the PSA2 Johnson.. I waited and got a 4 that looks like a 6 (has a barely barely visible center wrinkle on front only) for only $10 more than the 2's asking price. It's soooo tempting to pull the trigger on some of those BINs though! Last similar 2 got $127.

Re- the Red 649, I haven't collected T202 as long as the others, but have read lots of old threads and have never seen that back mentioned.. So I am very also very curious to see it.
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  #29  
Old 09-08-2011, 11:05 PM
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Ok sorry my bad I had wrote the wrong color for that card. #66 is a Black 649 not a red one. So now I see why none of you guys had seen one before Sorry for getting everyones hopes up.
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  #30  
Old 09-08-2011, 11:48 PM
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Mystery solved! Woulda been kinda funny to leave us all hanging to ponder the one and only Red 649 in the world.
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  #31  
Old 09-09-2011, 01:55 AM
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I have recorded over 1200 front and backs and never seen a red 649 so I kind of figured it was just a mistake. It is fun to try and get all the backs I currently have 6 cards with all 3 backs.

Lee
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  #32  
Old 09-09-2011, 09:49 AM
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Just f.y.i., I have 69 different T202's and I just looked at their backs. I have about the same % of different backs as trevor. Also, just 1 card having the black factory 30. If anyone is keeping track, the combo with the black 30 is Moriarity Spiked (Willett/Stange).
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  #33  
Old 09-09-2011, 02:17 PM
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Thanks Peter, If you have any idea, How long ago did you obtain the Black 30?

Thanks

Lee
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  #34  
Old 09-09-2011, 03:19 PM
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[QUOTE=bowlingshoegiverouterguy;923887]I have recorded over 1200 front and backs... Lee[/QUOTE

Lee- just curious, when you document so many cards, is it tough to not duplicate data on raw cards? Do you only document graded cards with s/n?

Thanks,
Ian

Last edited by itjclarke; 09-09-2011 at 03:20 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #35  
Old 09-09-2011, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bowlingshoegiverouterguy View Post
Thanks Peter, If you have any idea, How long ago did you obtain the Black 30?

Thanks

Lee
Lee, I am not positive, but I collected most of my T202's in the early 90's. That would be my best guess.

Peter
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  #36  
Old 09-09-2011, 06:07 PM
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Heres my Evers

t202 evers turqfront.jpg

t202 evers turqback.jpg
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  #37  
Old 09-09-2011, 07:19 PM
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Thanks Peter definately not in my data than, it will be added.

Ian, You are always going to get duplications, much of my data came from collections that others generously provided. I layed off for about 2 years and just cataloged Black 30s. The biggest problem from trying to catalog auction cards is that about 50 percent don't have scans of backs. I also tend to not look at ebay story cards anymore since they don't seem to change much.

There are currently 6 Red 30s that I have not been able to catalog, sorry I won't give out the info until it is either in my hands or tracked. AS noted before some player combos with 2 different center panels tend to be much tougher for some reason, none with Chief Meyer, though.

Here is something else for everyone to check, see if you have any cards with a center fold line similar to the end panel fold line. If you have one they are distinctive and are not from being folded.

Also one of the big excitements I have had was picking up raw examples that looked like they were fresh out of the box, laying flat the end panel were at a 45 degree angle (they came folded in the box).

Lee
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Old 09-10-2011, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bowlingshoegiverouterguy View Post
also one of the big excitements i have had was picking up raw examples that looked like they were fresh out of the box, laying flat the end panel were at a 45 degree angle (they came folded in the box).
Lee
Lee- did you ever get these examples graded or have you kept them raw? Curious to see a pic either way, but assume they must be very nice. I only have 2 raw T202's and haven't taken them out of their sleeves in years, but would most of the nice graded examples' ends fold up at this angle if taken out of the holder?

BTW- Chief Meyers was a BEAST back when T202's were running around on the street, partly justifying why he is all over this set.

Year Age Tm Lg G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF Pos Awards
1911 30 nyg nl 133 439 391 48 130 18 9 1 61 7 25 33 .332 .392 .432 .824 127 169 13 10 *2 mvp-10
1912 31 nyg nl 126 435 371 60 133 16 5 6 54 8 47 20 .358 .441 .477 .918 147 177 8 9 *2 mvp-3
1913 32 nyg nl 120 428 378 37 118 18 5 3 47 7 37 22 .312 .387 .410 .797 127 155 9 4 *2 mvp-5

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...eyerch01.shtml

Last edited by itjclarke; 09-10-2011 at 07:30 PM. Reason: trying to line up stats
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Old 09-10-2011, 06:53 PM
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Lee B.
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All have been graded. Around 2003 a seller was selling 5 card lots and I won 4 or 5 of them, many of the cards were as I described, surprisingly I don't think any of them graded NM.

Lee
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