new member introduction

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by kengoldin

part 3.
to tie up some other loose ends
in reply to someone here, I am not involved with any grading company. Do not now nor have I ever owned a grading company. For certain mass market sales in the past I have used services of low budget grading companies to save expenses, in fact the whole reason Beckett came up with the BCCG brand was to get a large portion of my business in 99-2000 era.
Anything in Goldin auctions will be graded by PSA (overwhelming majority) and SGC the rest of the time. no other grading service will be used.

With respect to Don west and Shop at Home, I believe the last time I was on was around 2002 10 years ago. Yes, SAH had an aggressive sales style, and I was one of 6 main vendors they had. All vendors used the same aggressive sales style as that was their format. That is how it was done at SAH. At the same time, I was on QVC which is well known as a network that has no hype, does not allow values to be stated or claimed, and does not allow a hard sell. I am still occasionally on QVC as I was for their Fenway park 100th anniversary show. If a multi billion $ company like QVC has no issues with me and feels I do a good job for their customers, I am proud of that and I believe that speaks volumes about me.

"That is how it was done"?? Uh, ok, but did you not benefit from "how it was done?" More importantly, do you acknowledge it was problematic, or are you defending it, it's hard to tell?

[RichardSimon]

I have actually been offered a laughable Babe Ruth autograph with a SB cert . Really. Dumbest seller I ever communicated with.
It is certainly true that SB certs have been duplicated by many, many criminals.
And as Ken has said we have worked together to help collectors with fake SB certs and to get crap off ebay that was advertised with fake SB certs.

[kengoldin]

Peter: Did not want to reply individually, but will inthis case and hope my 4 lengthy posts otherwise speak for themselves. in no way am i defending the practice or the era, and since then I have had 2 daughters and wish you tube didnt have gag reels of me calling into SAH. But it is a part of my past, we all know it, and move on. I believe the direction I have chosen with the auction house, as well as the good policies, procedures, and most importantly, great product sold in an honest fashion will over time outweigh all. I want the chance to prove myself and hope open minded people who know my 34 years as a hobbyist and my contacts and knowledge will allow me to prove myself to them

[Peter_Spaeth]

Thank you for the clarification.

[shelly]

Ken three words always said by new houses. Honest,Loyal and Prompt.
Why now Kenny. We have talked about certs for years and now you show up. Guess you want us to believe really care. Have anything to do with your new venture?

[kengoldin]

I PMed but will reply. As i said in my first message (foolish me) I was unaware of the existance of Net54 until someone saw me at the National and told me I should join. Monday of this week i signed up for an account.

[RobertGT]

I think Ken Goldin has stated his objective clearly and with good intentions, and should be given a chance to promote his new venture. Any auction house that is willing to say "no house bidding" on the record is already starting off with more credibility in my book than many of the multimillion-dollar auction houses already out there that refuse to talk about it, but secretly engage in this deceitful practice. Some other points:

- The Scoreboard name has always held weight in autograph collecting circles, even long after the company folded. The company was legit with autographs. That says something about Goldin. Their certs were easy to photocopy or use to accompany non-Scoreboard merchandise with fraudulent sigs. That's an important distinction.

- Yes Don West used to over-hype worthless stuff you didn't need. So does ever other TV huckster or Bill Mays-esque pitchman trying to sell a glorified blender for $149.99 today. That's what they do. When I used to work the night shift years ago, I came to appreciate the great comedy and energy to be found in the Don West sports shows and the crazy banter with Goldin. I'm sure some people took it seriously and bought this stuff, but to me it was great late-night comedy and nothing more. It really is buyer beware and do your research with any Shop At Home program.

Just my humble opinion.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by kengoldin

With respect to Don west and Shop at Home, I believe the last time I was on was around 2002 10 years ago. Yes, SAH had an aggressive sales style, and I was one of 6 main vendors they had. All vendors used the same aggressive sales style as that was their format. That is how it was done at SAH. At the same time, I was on QVC which is well known as a network that has no hype, does not allow values to be stated or claimed, and does not allow a hard sell. I am still occasionally on QVC as I was for their Fenway park 100th anniversary show. If a multi billion $ company like QVC has no issues with me and feels I do a good job for their customers, I am proud of that and I believe that speaks volumes about me.

Ken, no offense don’t blame Shop at Home for your past sales tactics. You know that the way you sold those items was right up there with the Wild West snake oil salesman of old. As for twisting that QVC is in some way endorsing you personally they are not and you should know that.

Ken I sell close to every major retailer in the world QVC included. These folks are business people if they are making money with you they are happy. Them doing business with you is not an endorsement of your integrity or character, but more of an endorsement of a successful and mutual business agreement I think the folks at QVC would agree.

Cheers,

John

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by RobertGT

I'm sure some people took it seriously and bought this stuff, but to me it was great late-night comedy and nothing more. It really is buyer beware and do your research with any Shop At Home program.

Yes that can be said of any purchase buyer beware. I wonder how many old ladies and folks viewed their purchases as comedy…later in life after being tweaked out of hard earned money.

Having someone who has made cash in the past from this line of work isn’t exactly the person I look to earmark significant funds to in my collecting. Just my two cents….

Cash For Gold
Get More: SOUTH
PARKEric Cartman,Grandpa Marsh,Stan Marsh,Leopold "Butters" Stotch,more...

[glchen]

I only came back to the hobby in early 2010 (after dropping out when I was a kid around 1990/91), so I don't know a lot of Ken's history. However, now and then the last couple of years, Ken has purchased a LOT of cards from me on ebay, so obviously I have a conflict of interest. Saying all of that, Ken has always been very professional and easy to deal with during our interactions. I would say that he deserves a chance to prove himself with his new auction house. If things don't go as he says, people can crucify him then. It looks like from his rules that he is attempting to be as ethical as possible. I do have some concerns with Steiner LOAs (since they have an especially bad rep), but it looks like these would only be for modern autos and not vintage/prewar ones. Good luck, Ken. This crowd is real tough on auction houses and their reps, but usually with only the best intentions.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Ken, no offense don’t blame Shop at Home for your past sales tactics. You know that the way you sold those items was right up there with the Wild West snake oil salesman of old. As for twisting that QVC is in some way endorsing you personally they are not and you should know that.

Ken I sell close to every major retailer in the world QVC included. These folks are business people if they are making money with you they are happy. Them doing business with you is not an endorsement of your integrity or character, but more of an endorsement of a successful and mutual business agreement I think the folks at QVC would agree.

Cheers,

John

John,
I think the point was that the items sold very successfully @ QVC also, where none of the objectionable behavior from SAH occurred.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Deertick

John,
I think the point was that the items sold very successfully @ QVC also, where none of the objectionable behavior from SAH occurred.

"If a multi billion $ company like QVC has no issues with me and feels I do a good job for their customers, I am proud of that and I believe that speaks volumes about me."

Not quite Jim M? See above. This is what I was addressing from Ken.

Also so they sold at QVC...does that discount the fact that they may have sold goods with snake oil across the street? I think not.

I go back to an old saying one of my first mentors told me about sales. Just because you put icing on a dog turd doesn’t make it now chocolate cake don’t insult your future customers intelligence, by spinning the angle to suit your needs.

Cheers,

John

[wonkaticket]

For me I have no beef with Ken on a personal level. He has all the rights to open a business and change direction. However as I said prior knowing the past sales tactics displayed by Ken I think he has a bit of an uphill battle.

Knowing how I view those past sales practices it’s not somebody I look to do considerable business with in terms of my collecting. I would think that other future buyers and consignors would take this into consideration before consigning significant items or buying significant items.

Perhaps I’m alone and that’s ok with me.

Cheers,

John

[Peter_Spaeth]

"What's past is prologue."

[shelly]

Originally Posted by kengoldin

I PMed but will reply. As i said in my first message (foolish me) I was unaware of the existance of Net54 until someone saw me at the National and told me I should join. Monday of this week i signed up for an account.
As far as my post on the certificates, and SB...'why now' it isnt a 'why now' it is something I have been doing and fighting helping various law enforcement agenecies and 'hobby policemen' since 1998. I did not go out and post this info, quite frankly because there were on going investigations and still are on going investigations into people committing the forgery crime i mentioned above. However, in light of comments I read here today, i felt that 'today' was a good time to inform...and if a certain agency gets mad at me for doing so, i guess i will deal with those consequences.

Ken if your really involved in a ongoing investigation why would you jeopardize it by revealing it here?
If Wayne Brey had done what you just did, they wouldn't have been an Operation Bullpen and I wouldn't be called a Felon. Everyone would have closed shop and headed for a foreign country, including myself.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by shelly

Ken if your really involved in a ongoing investigation why would you jeopardize it by revealing it here?
If Wayne Brey had done what you just did, they wouldn't have been an Operation Bullpen and I wouldn't be called a Felon. Everyone would have closed shop and headed for a foreign country, including myself.

If you are in the sports card or memorabilia industry/hobby you should know you are being watched, plain and simple. There are current investigations going on in several different niches in the sports hobby. I don't think that is new news. I am glad they are ongoing too. If you write something in a public forum, such as this, expect it to be read by authorities..If you are doing bad stuff expect the consequences, one way or another.

[botn]

Ken,
Thanks for the call and the posts. I know I said I would reply to you directly but since I started this here I figure it was best to continue it here. I wanted to address a couple of things in your posts.

All of us have done things in our past which we are not particularly proud of so I am not judging you. My posts were trying to point out that your past is going to make it tough for you to be trusted, at least initially. Maybe you have had changes in your life that have made you re-evaluate your past and now you are going to do things the right way. I suppose time will tell. It is easy for you to write off what happened at SAH sitting on piles of cash you made by repeatedly misrepresenting product. Maybe without youtube videos you can forget what you did but what about those who you stuck with worthless junk cards? Many of those people are fathers of sons and daughters, as you are now. You are now coming back to the very hobby you deceived and are asking for us to support you. How do we know if 10 years from now we will not read your posts about your auction company in which you state, “That is how it was done”?

And finally, you wrote “100% of the certs that are REAL and have the name 'ken goldin' have this mark. If it does not have the mark, and has the facsimile of Ken goldin, it is a fake cert. SB did not publicize this fact because it wanted to stay 1 step ahead of the forgers.” If protecting the public is the purpose or intent of issuing LOAs then was it in the public’s best interest to not publicize SB’s had been compromised or was it in your best interest that this information was kept from the public? If you knew a crime was being committed shouldn’t the first step be to stop the crime by alerting everyone?

You can respond if you want to. If Barry Sloate already has your back then I am sure you will do just fine so you need not pay any attention to shelly's, wonka's or my posts.

Thanks,
Greg

[barrysloate]

Greg- I'm not following your reference to me.

[kengoldin]

Greg
thank you for at least taking the time to read everything. I re-read my original post and edited it to reflect a more accurate statement, as the wording may have been poor with respect to SB certs, this is listed below. I have ALWAYS gone out of my way, on ebay, and with hobby dealers (and quite frankly anyone who bothers to call me and ask me a question, or email me) to inform them of what to look for when buying SB product to make sure they buy the real thing, I continue to do so to this day, and will continue to do so in the future.
As far as the auction, i believe what i have stated, the people involved, our product and our policies speak for itself. I am well aware that every auction house is going to be scrutinized till the ends of the earth forever, and am happy that we will be conducting our FIRST auction in 10 weeks, so we can learn from other's mistakes. Rest assured, all parties involved like their lives and are not going to do anything to jeapordize themselves, their careers, or the business.
At this point, I will let everyone come to their own opinion, and let time be the judge. I am available for questions by email or PM, but I think i have had more then my share of the 'public forums' for a while.

"around 92-93 to combat these problems SB started marking its autographed items with a mark that was detectable under UV light. In addition, it began to mark its certs with a hidden water mark as well. 100% of the certs that are REAL and have the name 'ken goldin' have this mark. If it does not have the mark, and has the facsimile of Ken goldin, it is a fake cert. SB did not publicize this fact because it wanted to stay 1 step ahead of the forgers. It told its customers but did not point out where the water mark was, it what it was. I have , however, made dealers and press (example an interview i did with TJ Schwartz 2 years ago where he mentioned that SB certs and items were marked...but did not mention where or how) are of this."

[Peter_Spaeth]

"I am well aware that every auction house is going to be scrutinized till the ends of the earth forever, and am happy that we will be conducting our FIRST auction in 10 weeks, so we can learn from other's mistakes. Rest assured, all parties involved like their lives and are not going to do anything to jeapordize themselves, their careers, or the business."

What do I know, but I would offer people a more positive reason to trust you than that you know you'll be under scrutiny and don't want to get in trouble? Compare this to Al Crisafulli's thread announcing his new business, when he didn't have any explaining to do and a host of folks came on the board to vouch for his reputation and integrity. Just my cynical .02.

[HRBAKER]

A lot of good points have been raised and made in this thread.

History has shown that it is alot more about what you get consigned than what you have or may have done that determines whether people will bid.

[Matthew H]

You guys are brutal. I thought SAH was hilarious.

[botn]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Greg- I'm not following your reference to me.

Post #34, Barry. Not that you had to pick sides in this battle but your post was not one that I would have thought someone with your reputation in the hobby would have made. Like Leon and Scott, it would seem that you have conducted yourself in your many years in the business with a great deal of integrity. I would think that you would have taken a harder stance on some of the sales tactics that were used on SAH.

I agree there is a distinction between ethical and illegal but when either is violated neither one should come without consequences.

[barrysloate]

Thanks Greg, but I didn't take a harder stance because I have never met Ken Goldin and never did any business with him. I do remember hearing stories in the past, but didn't recall the details until I read this thread. I did look at the videos Wonka linked and they were nothing short of appalling. Mr. Goldin has his work cut out to restore the public trust. But as has been pointed out, if his auction has good stuff in it nobody will give a damn about anything except how to win it.

[sportscardpete]

Those videos were hilarious! I can't take this thread seriously.

I'll give the guy the benefit of the doubt; we'll see how the auctions go before I denounce him...

I will say that I'm looking forward to reading some of the auction descriptions...

[edhans]

It is easy for you to write off what happened at SAH sitting on piles of cash you made by repeatedly misrepresenting product. Maybe without youtube videos you can forget what you did but what about those who you stuck with worthless junk cards? Many of those people are fathers of sons and daughters, as you are now. You are now coming back to the very hobby you deceived and are asking for us to support you. How do we know if 10 years from now we will not read your posts about your auction company in which you state, “That is how it was done”?

+1

I don't know you, Ken, and have no personal grievance with you, since I wasn't niave enough to buy the garbage you hawked on SAH. Even though no crime was committed, what took place there was nothing short of theft. How could you have allowed your name to be used in connection with this venture? I don't see how the hobby can sweep your past under the rug and pretend it never happened. It seems to me that you still have a great deal of apologizing to do, especially to those people who squandered thousands of dollars on worthless crap, in part, perhaps, because you endorsed it.

[calvindog]

Damn, tough room -- tougher on Ken than ever on Mastro and Allen -- guys who have been indicted for ripping off every one on this forum. Gee, wonder why that is?

Of course, I agree with the criticism that's been laid out here.

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by RobertGT

Will Don West of Shop at Home fame be making a cameo appearance? That was some classic late-night TV:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-K7A1QGtuUU

Good luck with your auction!

I miss the Don West SAH appearances! My kids still do the imitations:

"YOU'RE GUNNA GET THE MCGWIRE ROOKIE!! YOU'RE GUNNA GET THE GRIFFEY JR ROOKIE!!!"

Best of luck with the auctions.

Steve

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Damn, tough room -- tougher on Ken than ever on Mastro and Allen -- guys who have been indicted for ripping off every one on this forum. Gee, wonder why that is?

Of course, I agree with the criticism that's been laid out here.

--

[calvindog]

Ken has gotten more criticism on this one thread than Mastro and Doug have in the past five years (excluding from me of course). You can thrown in Goodwin and JP too with Mastro and Doug. Are there really no posters here who made money with Ken and want to do all they can to shut up the criticism of him? Comeon, great guys! Step it up!

[Kenny Cole]

Jeff,

IMO, the difference is in the ugly videos. A picture's worth a thousand words and all that stuff.

[Rich Klein]

In a truly ironic moment, I just got a facebook request from Ken Goldin. I did accept BTW. I'm expecting a linked-in message next

Rich

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Jeff,

IMO, the difference is in the ugly videos. A picture's worth a thousand words and all that stuff.

LOLOL fair enough.

[Matthew H]

I don't really agree with the criticism here. Many hobby shops/dealers were hyping the same crap back then. People thought it had value, and it certainly wasn't cheaper elsewhere.

What about Beckett starting a grading offshoot bccg just to get in on the action? Do they get a pass too? These guys were selling $500 "book value" for $70, what the heck is wrong with that?

[Peter_Spaeth]

neat pic from the website

[David R]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

For me I have no beef with Ken on a personal level. He has all the rights to open a business and change direction. However as I said prior knowing the past sales tactics displayed by Ken I think he has a bit of an uphill battle.

Knowing how I view those past sales practices it’s not somebody I look to do considerable business with in terms of my collecting. I would think that other future buyers and consignors would take this into consideration before consigning significant items or buying significant items.

Perhaps I’m alone and that’s ok with me.

Cheers,

John

+1

[cobblove]

This has been an intersting read.
The only way I relate to this was when I was 12 years old and I collected vintage cards at the time. It was when I first got more into the old stuff. Well I used to watch the Home S net and would always laugh at the prices and thought only an idiot would buy that stuff. Well the day came where my loving grandma bought me some kind of box that guaranteed a Mickey Mantle my grandma said. I knew where she got the box from but I didnt want to be rude and say you got ripped off. I thanked her and took it home. It had a mantle alright. A reprint. Whooopiee. It just akes me thinking someone took her for 90.00 on a pile of junk. She bought it because she knew I collected cards. It just gives me a sick feeling in my stomach thinking about it. I for one will not bid at this auction house because of that feeling.

[drc]

I think this thread will cause more people to check out the auction, so I don't per sey think it's bad for them.

The best way to overcome the criticism is to run good auctions.

[RobertGT]

Originally Posted by wolf441

I miss the Don West SAH appearances! My kids still do the imitations:

"YOU'RE GUNNA GET THE MCGWIRE ROOKIE!! YOU'RE GUNNA GET THE GRIFFEY JR !"

Steve

GEM MINT 10!!! Lol

I too think people are taking this way too seriously. We can all point to instances where we were overcharged, sold overhyped goods or bit our tongues when a loved one bought us a piece of crap for Christmas.

I spent last weekend at the National, spending oh, I don't know, maybe 90 percent of my time looking at cards worth $100 with price tags of $275, listening to dealers tell me a common t206 with a crease through the face is worth $75 and others becoming flabbergasted when I told them their cards sell for about 75 percent less on eBay. A common response was "I can't sell at eBay prices. You know how much it costs to set up here? I have overhead!"

Fair enough. Guess what? Ken Goldin had and will have overhead.

Here is a classic link for a nice laugh! Enjoy...

http://www.donwest.org/video.php?id=10

PS...Feel free to let us know what line these guys shoveled to people that made you laugh the most.

For me it's the beginning...

"The Holy Grail of Baseball Cards...*suspense* The T206 Honus Wagner, Do You Want To Own One?!?! *huge drama and suspense*

[danski496]

My momma always told me if I didn't have anything nice to say then I shouldn't say it. Interesting thread though. BTW, I still have a huge box of real nice graded cards my bought me from SAH, I figured I'd hold onto it just in case I ran out of firewood.

[keithsky]

I don't know Ken Golding but people accussing him of selling over priced cards isn't any different than people selling PSA, Beckett or SGC cards. If you were selling a card not slabbed by these companies it would be far less than a slabbed card so your first thought is i'll send it to them to get it slabbed to make more money on it. Same thing he did. You know a Mantle rookie not slabbed is no where near a slabbed PSA card.

[barrysloate]

The issue wasn't that he was selling overpriced cards, it's that the cards were essentially worthless. If you want to pay $100 for a $50 card, that's fine and it's certainly not unusual. But would anybody want to pay $50 for cards that were worth pennies? I don't think anybody would say that is a fair transaction.

[tothrk]

I agree with Barry. He was pushing mass produced cards which were worth pennies at their peak. He wasn't selling overpriced Mantles and Clemente's. He was basically selling trash. In the end, I'm not sure any of it matters because if he gets premium consignments everyone will bid in his auctions no matter what they think he did or is doing.

[FirstYearCards]

As a collector for 20+ years, I've dealt with good and bad. Simplest way to deal with a situation like this: If you see a deal, go for it. If you fear a scam, leave well enough alone and move on.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

The issue wasn't that he was selling overpriced cards, it's that the cards were essentially worthless. If you want to pay $100 for a $50 card, that's fine and it's certainly not unusual. But would anybody want to pay $50 for cards that were worth pennies? I don't think anybody would say that is a fair transaction.

Why were they worth pennies? If people were paying $100 for the cards than it seems like they were worth $100 at the time. If he was shill bidding or altering the cards to get them into higher graded holders your argument would have more merit. We have enough garbage running auction houses that perhaps before we go after the guys who simply engage in massive puffery we should focus on the guys who break federal and state laws while running their auctions. By the way, I'm not certain the Shamwow is worth $19.99 either -- but if someone is willing to pay for it because the guy hawking them is persuasive then so be it.

Oh and a disclaimer: I don't know anyone associated with Goldin Auctions, I've never consigned with him, partnered with him, or given him cards and watched with delight as he shill bid the cards through the stratosphere.

[glynparson]

It was around 1999-2000. I received a phone call from a woman in the Lebanon PA area. Her husband has just passed away from cancer and all he left her was this very valuable baseball card collection. When I get to the house, I brought my father with me to help go through it, she takes us to the basement to see the collection. When I get there I am horrified. It is all very beat up ugly off centered new cards all in 10 holders. The woman then explains to us how her husband found out he was dying of cancer, he didn't tell anyone at first. they had little money and No life insurance. They did have good credit, and he eventually told his wife he was dying of cancer but he had provided for her and their daughter. He got several credit cards and maxed them out buying that overhyped crap off of TV from Mr Goldin and Solomon Cramer. It was so hard explaining to this woman that her sick desperate husband, who was trying to give his family a future, had actually wasted tens of thousands of dollars they did not have. The woman was crying hysterically she was telling us how she would lose her home because she needed money from these cards. He had spent 20000+ and I would not have given her $2000 for it all and I would have paid her more than it was worth to try and help her. So no, he will not get a second chance from me, I don't care if he gets every white whale on my want list. I hope is has turned a new leaf but until past since are acknowledge a little more honestly and openly, and attempted to be rectified when possible, I will avoid Goldin auctions and be openly critical of his past, and I also wish they would not be an advertiser and please don't send me any email blasts about upcoming auctions as I don't care.

Edit: Jeff if you would see some of the garbage they were calling gem mint on modern stuff it seems a little beyond puffery in my opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jeff did you change your mind overnight? Previously you said "Of course, I agree with the criticism that's been laid out here."

To your point that something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it, philosophically I would like to agree with that free market view, but as Glyn's story illustrates, in some instances it just doesn't comport with reality or take into account just how easy it is to take advantage of vulnerable and uninformed people. I think what SAH did is well over the line ethically.

[barrysloate]

Jeff didn't change his mind Peter, he just likes to rag on me.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Jeff did you change your mind overnight? Previously you said "Of course, I agree with the criticism that's been laid out here."

Peter, no, didn't change my mind at all -- I do agree with the criticism, the videos are ridiculous. But I'm just surprised at the venom on this thread compared to how Mastro and Doug Allen (and others) were dealt with who either have been indicted for fraud or whose empirical auction results are patently, consistently absurd.

And Barry, you need to relax, maybe you're working too hard.