A Modest Proposal

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Have mentioned this idea to a number of friends and thought I'd get more thoughts here. Not that I'm in a position to do anything about it, but what does everything think of the concept:

PSA institutes a bad actor clause. If over 10% (we can dicker over what the correct % should be) of your bulk submission is altered they keep the money as penalty for being a bad actor and you get ALL the cards back ungraded, AND you are banned from further submissions.

This was inspired by the submissions where nearly half the cards were altered but they graded the other half anyway.

If this policy was used it would certainly put a major dent in the profitability of the card doctors. It might also discourage others from submitting on their behalf.

Is it fool proof, no. However getting NO cards from a submission graded destroys the profitability curve. If you're counting on getting half your doctored cards through grading, but instead keep getting massive submissions returned (assuming you haven't run out of false identities to submit them under) I don't know how you would turn a profit. Yet if you submit in less than bulk quantities you are easier to catch and also slower to profit.

Also allows PSA to keep the money from the doctors. Yes it will dry up eventually as they are driven out of business, but shouldn't that be a good thing in the long run?

[perezfan]

I like parts of it, but not all...

1. Sending the ungraded cards back to the card doctors? Not a good idea, as they will inevitably turn up elsewhere. This doesn't fix that major problem. The cards would need to be marked or tagged in some way, and the submitting public likely won't go for that.

2. Card doctors will find another stooge to submit them, once they are returned. They will always find other people to do the dirty work.

3. Why are so many still relying on PSA to fix this? They've proven countless times that they cannot effectively detect alterations. Let's stop relying on their self-appointed "expertise".

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Have mentioned this idea to a number of friends and thought I'd get more thoughts here. Not that I'm in a position to do anything about it, but what does everything think of the concept:

PSA institutes a bad actor clause. If over 10% (we can dicker over what the correct % should be) of your bulk submission is altered they keep the money as penalty for being a bad actor and you get ALL the cards back ungraded, AND you are banned from further submissions.

This was inspired by the submissions where nearly half the cards were altered but they graded the other half anyway.

If this policy was used it would certainly put a major dent in the profitability of the card doctors. It might also discourage others from submitting on their behalf.


Is it fool proof, no. However getting NO cards from a submission graded destroys the profitability curve. If you're counting on getting half your doctored cards through grading, but instead keep getting massive submissions returned (assuming you haven't run out of false identities to submit them under) I don't know how you would turn a profit. Yet if you submit in less than bulk quantities you are easier to catch and also slower to profit.

Also allows PSA to keep the money from the doctors. Yes it will dry up eventually as they are driven out of business, but shouldn't that be a good thing in the long run?

In addition to whats been said...PSA will never turn away business...they won't!

[1952boyntoncollector]

So many issues on this for someone to take someones property. I cant see this even remotely happening.

I can see them reporting it to law enforcement who could intervene though

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

So many issues on this for someone to take someones property. I cant see this even remotely happening.

I can see them reporting it to law enforcement who could intervene though

Nowhere did I suggest someone taking property. The cards are returned ungraded. Unless you were referring to the money. And you are agreeing to that penalty as a term of submitting.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

So many issues on this for someone to take someones property. I cant see this even remotely happening.

I can see them reporting it to law enforcement who could intervene though

Why would they report it to law enforcement? It is certainly not illegal to do anything you want to a card you own. And merely submitting an altered card to a grading company is not illegal either. Many innocent people over the years have submitted cards to the grading companies that have come back as altered or unauthentic. In fact, that is one of the reasons that people submit a card to a TPG, to double check and make sure whether it is authentic/altered or not, because that is what they're paying the TPG for, to authenticate the card and give it the appropriate grade.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Yes nothing illegal occurs until someone tries to represent an altered card as unaltered in a sale situation. There needs to be intent and a victim. I think PSA would be hard pressed to claim they are a victim of the card doctors.

[MULLINS5]

I would prefer PSA to just authenticate and grade the cards accurately.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by BobC

Why would they report it to law enforcement? It is certainly not illegal to do anything you want to a card you own. And merely submitting an altered card to a grading company is not illegal either. Many innocent people over the years have submitted cards to the grading companies that have come back as altered or unauthentic. In fact, that is one of the reasons that people submit a card to a TPG, to double check and make sure whether it is authentic/altered or not, because that is what they're paying the TPG for, to authenticate the card and give it the appropriate grade.

right, not saying the submitter is getting arrested, but that law enforcement may be notified. There could be an active investigation and if a grouping of 50 cards have 50 altered ones (all with stated value over $1000), you can see why that may get reported.

Maybe there may be questions about where the submitter got the card from law enforcement etc

[steve B]

Well, then keeping the money wouldn't be turning away business, at least not directly....

I also think a system like that would be prone to abuse by PSA, or by the graders. Got a batch to finish up grading before you head out to a hot date Friday night? Hmm... only at 50/200 cards and 10 min to go... reject reject reject, reject...… Job done! And the company still gets the fees so I won't be in trouble!

It would also punish the people who just send in a batch of cards they bought like one dealer I asked why he had a huge pile of late 50's cards graded 3-5 that he was selling for les than the grading fee. "Oh, I send them in by the hundreds, maybe thousands if I bought a big collection. I only pull out the obvious beaters. "
Or the people who just can't spot problems.. who probably should begetting help submitting or picking cards anyway.

[trambo]

Rather than being punitive (which you can't be really) maybe if that certain % is deemed to have been altered then all of the cards either don't get graded or all of them get the "A". Not sure any of it really has legs but bringing ideas to potentially help the hobby is a good thing!

[drcy]

I would hope that PSA is conscious of submitters who often submit altered cards.

However, at this point PSA should be trying to explain to us why they should be in the business of grading cards, and have the business ethics to do so. They, of course, are welcome to make their case. I would listen.

By business ethics I mean that an authenticator's model is supposed to be centered on authentication and accurate expression of authenticity. Clearly, and likely in part because it is a business, this is not the model for PSA. The Registry is an academic folly as far as that goes. You know what the essential linguistic root is of 'authenticity' and 'authentication?' The expression of the truth and facts-- does that sound like anything near what is PSA's business model and practice?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by trambo

Rather than being punitive (which you can't be really) maybe if that certain % is deemed to have been altered then all of the cards either don't get graded or all of them get the "A". Not sure any of it really has legs but bringing ideas to potentially help the hobby is a good thing!

OK Maybe all of them getting the "A" justifies keeping the money. I was thinking just sending them back keeps the cost down and makes it more palatable for PSA. I'm a realist and realize you can't count on PSA to volunteer to give upp all that good card doctor money.

[ullmandds]

there needs to be a risk on the part of the doctors sending in doctored cards...like permanently defacing/marking cards shown to be altered...but the problem is their detection process needs to be fullproof...which they are not.

And what if the sender didn't doctor the card themselves...should they be punished?

It's not fixable i hate to say.