Your first NHL game and other prominent games you attended

[Writehooks]

I've been fortunate to earn my living in Canadian sports media for 45 years, starting with covering the Vancouver Canucks in 1975. Relocated to Edmonton in 1982 and covered the Oilers dynasty through '92, then turned to fulltime freelancing. For what it's worth, the most dominant player I ever saw was Orr, with Gretzky a distant second. The most talented player I ever saw was Mario. Best pure goal scorers: Mike Bossy, Joe Sakic. Most exciting to watch: Guy Lafleur, Gil Perreault. Best goalie: Patrick Roy.
Just my 2 cents worth ...

[irv]

Originally Posted by Writehooks

I've been fortunate to earn my living in Canadian sports media for 45 years, starting with covering the Vancouver Canucks in 1975. Relocated to Edmonton in 1982 and covered the Oilers dynasty through '92, then turned to fulltime freelancing. For what it's worth, the most dominant player I ever saw was Orr, with Gretzky a distant second. The most talented player I ever saw was Mario. Best pure goal scorers: Mike Bossy, Joe Sakic. Most exciting to watch: Guy Lafleur, Gil Perreault. Best goalie: Patrick Roy.
Just my 2 cents worth ...

Great story.

Thanks for sharing.

[goldenage]

Originally Posted by Writehooks

I've been fortunate to earn my living in Canadian sports media for 45 years, starting with covering the Vancouver Canucks in 1975. Relocated to Edmonton in 1982 and covered the Oilers dynasty through '92, then turned to fulltime freelancing. For what it's worth, the most dominant player I ever saw was Orr, with Gretzky a distant second. The most talented player I ever saw was Mario. Best pure goal scorers: Mike Bossy, Joe Sakic. Most exciting to watch: Guy Lafleur, Gil Perreault. Best goalie: Patrick Roy.
Just my 2 cents worth ...

Totally agree about your assessment comparing Orr to Gretzky. Orr dominated in a way that the younger generation couldn't fathom. You just couldn't get the puck off him. Like Bobby Hull said to the ref during a game, "You may as well get another puck for the rest of us to play with, because no one is going to get it off of that kid".


Patrick Roy was not as dominant as everyone thinks. Yes, he got a lot of wins playing with Montreal and Colorado, but the top five save percentage leaders all time are Hasek, Dryden, Bishop, Thomas, and Rask. All four have a lifetime save percentage over .920

In 20 NHL seasons Patrick Roy only had three seasons where his save percentage was above .920, and his lifetime save percentage was .910

Tim Thomas did the impossible one year in 2011 against Vancouver where he set the all time record postseason performance for goalies. He had a .967 save percentage that entire postseason, and he was the most dominant goalie ever in the postseason in 2011.

Dominik Hasek has the most impressive numbers in NHL history, and I have no problem with anyone ranking him as the greatest of all time.

Even Marty Broduer with all his wins does not have an impressive lifetime
save percentage. Broduer is #42 all time in save percentage and Patrick Roy doesn't even crack the Top 50.

https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/reco...e-leaders.html

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by goldenage

Totally agree about your assessment comparing Orr to Gretzky. Orr dominated in a way that the younger generation couldn't fathom. You just couldn't get the puck off him. Like Bobby Hull said to the ref during a game, "You may as well get another puck for the rest of us to play with, because no one is going to get it off of that kid".


Patrick Roy was not as dominant as everyone thinks. Yes, he got a lot of wins playing with Montreal and Colorado, but the top five save percentage leaders all time are Hasek, Dryden, Bishop, Thomas, and Rask. All four have a lifetime save percentage over .920

In 20 NHL seasons Patrick Roy only had three seasons where his save percentage was above .920, and his lifetime save percentage was .910

Tim Thomas did the impossible one year in 2011 against Vancouver where he set the all time record postseason performance for goalies. He had a .967 save percentage that entire postseason, and he was the most dominant goalie ever in the postseason in 2011.

Dominik Hasek has the most impressive numbers in NHL history, and I have no problem with anyone ranking him as the greatest of all time.

Even Marty Broduer with all his wins does not have an impressive lifetime
save percentage. Broduer is #42 all time in save percentage and Patrick Roy doesn't even crack the Top 50.

https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/reco...e-leaders.html

Patrick Roy was as dominant as people think.
Literally everything you stated was based on save %.... just that one stat.
Factor in all other stats for goaltenders and Patrick Roy is hands-down ONE of the greatest of all-time.

ROY:

- the only PLAYER in NHL history to win the Conn Smythe Trophy three times, the only one to do so in different decades, and the only one to do so for two teams.
- Most NHL playoff wins by a goaltender
- First NHL goaltender to win 500 games
- popularized the butterfly style of goaltending, which has since become the dominant style of goaltending around the world.
And, most importantly - selected as the greatest goaltender in NHL history in 2004 by a panel of 41 writers, coupled with a simultaneous fan poll

Hasek has great numbers, but his career is at best 12 "full" seasons (he played in 735 games in parts of 16 NHL seasons). Compare that to Roy's full 18 seasons...

If you consider shorter careers, Bill Durnan posted stats as arguably impressive as Hasek.... and he was certainly more dominant, albeit for a shorter period.

- selected to the NHL First All-Star Team IN EVERY SEASON HE PLAYED except one, which equates to six in seven seasons (six selections for Hasek in parts of 16 seasons)
- won the Vezina Trophy as the top goaltender in EVERY SEASON HE PLAYED except one, which equates to six in seven seasons (Hasek won six Vezina Trophies in parts of sixteen seasons)
- won a pair of Stanley Cup championships in just seven seasons (Hasek also won a pair, but over parts of 16 seasons)

Also, Hasek's NHL career average of 2.20 is only slightly better than Durnan's of 2.36, while Durnan registered a better win % than Hasek throughout his career.


.... if save % was the stat to gauge careers on, then goaltenders you mentioned at the top of that statistic would be considered the best all-time, and we know that is no where near the case for the likes of Bishop, Thomas and Rask.

[powderfinger]

Thanksgiving (US) night, 1964, second balcony in old Chicago Stadium. Hawks vs. Rangers. You generally couldn't get a ticket to a Hawks game in those days, but somebody who did have them decided to spend the evening with family and offered a friend of my father's his six tickets for the game. My dad took my younger brother and I, his friend brought his brother and his son. Six of us packed into one car (front seats were bench seats back then). Ten future Hall of Famers on the ice that night.

I did see the final game of two Stanley Cup Finals series, but unfortunately, saw Jean Beliveau skate the Cup around the ice after a game seven win, then Henri Richard do the same thing when they beat the Hawks in six games a year or two later.

Does anybody out there think John Ashley was anything but a Canadiens homer?

[goldenage]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Patrick Roy was as dominant as people think.
Literally everything you stated was based on save %.... just that one stat.
Factor in all other stats for goaltenders and Patrick Roy is hands-down ONE of the greatest of all-time.

ROY:

- the only PLAYER in NHL history to win the Conn Smythe Trophy three times, the only one to do so in different decades, and the only one to do so for two teams.
- Most NHL playoff wins by a goaltender
- First NHL goaltender to win 500 games
- popularized the butterfly style of goaltending, which has since become the dominant style of goaltending around the world.
And, most importantly - selected as the greatest goaltender in NHL history in 2004 by a panel of 41 writers, coupled with a simultaneous fan poll

Hasek has great numbers, but his career is at best 12 "full" seasons (he played in 735 games in parts of 16 NHL seasons). Compare that to Roy's full 18 seasons...

If you consider shorter careers, Bill Durnan posted stats as arguably impressive as Hasek.... and he was certainly more dominant, albeit for a shorter period.

- selected to the NHL First All-Star Team IN EVERY SEASON HE PLAYED except one, which equates to six in seven seasons (six selections for Hasek in parts of 16 seasons)
- won the Vezina Trophy as the top goaltender in EVERY SEASON HE PLAYED except one, which equates to six in seven seasons (Hasek won six Vezina Trophies in parts of sixteen seasons)
- won a pair of Stanley Cup championships in just seven seasons (Hasek also won a pair, but over parts of 16 seasons)

Also, Hasek's NHL career average of 2.20 is only slightly better than Durnan's of 2.36, while Durnan registered a better win % than Hasek throughout his career.


.... if save % was the stat to gauge careers on, then goaltenders you mentioned at the top of that statistic would be considered the best all-time, and we know that is no where near the case for the likes of Bishop, Thomas and Rask.

Goaltenders don't win games. Good teams win games. Marty Broduer won lots of games making 20 saves a night. Would Marty have won all those games playing for the Buffalo Sabres facing 35 shots a night ?

Hasek wasn't given a chance when he first entered the league. Chicago had him as a backup to Ed Belfour and Buffalo even had Fuhr start ahead of him in a playoff series. Go check out Fuhr and Hasek's numbers in that series. It was a joke that they wouldn't give Hasek a fair shot. Go watch game 6 of the Chicago-Penguins series when Belfour was pulled and Hasek replaced him. It wasn't even close who the better goaltender was. Hasek stoned Lemeiux on two breakaways. Which was impossible back in that day.

There was a Canadian goaltender bias back in that day. Europeans were not given the same chance the way Canadians were. Same with coaching back in the day, and pretty much even up till now. Most coaches have to be Canadian or American to get a good coaching job, but the player side has got better over the years. Not knocking it, just saying what the data shows us.

Durnan never faced a curved stick, or a Bobby or Brett Hull slapshot.
Would love to see Durnan face an Ovie or Chara shot with a fiberglass stick. He'd be toast.

Tim Thomas was one of the greatest goaltenders all time. No one gave him a shot out of high school or college. He was always a back up. On team USA in the Olympics he backed up Ryan Miller. On the Bruins it was always him and Rask. BTW, Thomas and Rask are in the Top 5 save percentage all time, so yes, I do see them as two of the greatest ever.

Tim Thomas lifetime playoff and regular season save percentage numbers are considerably better than Patrick Roy's, and you're going to tell me that Patrick Roy was a better shot stopper than Tim Thomas ? No. Tim Thomas stopped the puck better than Patrick Roy.

Not sure if you ever looked at the 2001 playoff numbers for Thomas, but they aren't even human. He belonged in another league with Bobby Orr.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by goldenage

Goaltenders don't win games. Good teams win games. Marty Broduer won lots of games making 20 saves a night. Would Marty have won all those games playing for the Buffalo Sabres facing 35 shots a night ?

Hasek wasn't given a chance when he first entered the league. Chicago had him as a backup to Ed Belfour and Buffalo even had Fuhr start ahead of him in a playoff series. Go check out Fuhr and Hasek's numbers in that series. It was a joke that they wouldn't give Hasek a fair shot. Go watch game 6 of the Chicago-Penguins series when Belfour was pulled and Hasek replaced him. It wasn't even close who the better goaltender was. Hasek stoned Lemeiux on two breakaways. Which was impossible back in that day.

There was a Canadian goaltender bias back in that day. Europeans were not given the same chance the way Canadians were. Same with coaching back in the day, and pretty much even up till now. Most coaches have to be Canadian or American to get a good coaching job, but the player side has got better over the years. Not knocking it, just saying what the data shows us.

Durnan never faced a curved stick, or a Bobby or Brett Hull slapshot.
Would love to see Durnan face an Ovie or Chara shot with a fiberglass stick. He'd be toast.

Tim Thomas was one of the greatest goaltenders all time. No one gave him a shot out of high school or college. He was always a back up. On team USA in the Olympics he backed up Ryan Miller. On the Bruins it was always him and Rask. BTW, Thomas and Rask are in the Top 5 save percentage all time, so yes, I do see them as two of the greatest ever.

Tim Thomas lifetime playoff and regular season save percentage numbers are considerably better than Patrick Roy's, and you're going to tell me that Patrick Roy was a better shot stopper than Tim Thomas ? No. Tim Thomas stopped the puck better than Patrick Roy.

Not sure if you ever looked at the 2001 playoff numbers for Thomas, but they aren't even human. He belonged in another league with Bobby Orr.

With all due respect, the majority of what you said is meaningless....

save percentage means absolutely nothing if your team loses games.
Nothing.
Your team loses, you go nowhere and win nothing.... but hey, what a great save percentage!

And "no one gave him (Thomas) a shot out of high school or college"
Is that how it's supposed to work? Everyone is given a shot??
Its a BUSINESS, EARN your spot, there's no handouts or free rides.

And your assumption regarding Bill Durnan is spurious to say the least, ridiculous at most.
With your logic, Bobby Orr wouldn't have been able to do anything and would be useless with an old, solid one-piece stick like players used in the earlier days, or Tim Thomas wouldn't be able to stop a single puck wearing much smaller and heavier antiquated goaltending equipment.

Rangers and Flyers at Madison Square Garden in 1980 Go Rangers!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by rgpete

Rangers and Flyers at Madison Square Garden in 1980 Go Rangers!

When hockey was hockey...man, the Garden ice was terrible for years.

[goldenage]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

With all due respect, the majority of what you said is meaningless....

save percentage means absolutely nothing if your team loses games.
Nothing.
Your team loses, you go nowhere and win nothing.... but hey, what a great save percentage!

And "no one gave him (Thomas) a shot out of high school or college"
Is that how it's supposed to work? Everyone is given a shot??
Its a BUSINESS, EARN your spot, there's no handouts or free rides.

And your assumption regarding Bill Durnan is spurious to say the least, ridiculous at most.
With your logic, Bobby Orr wouldn't have been able to do anything and would be useless with an old, solid one-piece stick like players used in the earlier days, or Tim Thomas wouldn't be able to stop a single puck wearing much smaller and heavier antiquated goaltending equipment.

So if Patrick Roy played for the NY Islanders all his career he wouldn't be the greatest of all time because he never won a championship ?

Funny, in baseball many say Ted Williams was the greatest of all time and he never won a championship.

Baseball and hockey are team games. You can be great and still not win championships.

Save percentage is mentioned by all the great commentators, from McKenzie to Don Cherry. It's a simple concept. A goalie sees a shot, has a breakaway on him, has a two on one, and he either is better than the shot takers, or he gets beat.

Hasek, Dryden, Rask, Bishop, and Thomas were the best ever at stopping shots. Patrick Roy wasn't even in the Top 50. Roy is highly over rated.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by goldenage

So if Patrick Roy played for the NY Islanders all his career he wouldn't be the greatest of all time because he never won a championship ?

Funny, in baseball many say Ted Williams was the greatest of all time and he never won a championship.

Baseball and hockey are team games. You can be great and still not win championships.

Save percentage is mentioned by all the great commentators, from McKenzie to Don Cherry. It's a simple concept. A goalie sees a shot, has a breakaway on him, has a two on one, and he either is better than the shot takers, or he gets beat.

Hasek, Dryden, Rask, Bishop, and Thomas were the best ever at stopping shots. Patrick Roy wasn't even in the Top 50. Roy is highly over rated.

Yes, Patrick Roy would have won with the Islanders if he spent his entire career there... Things would have been totally different. That's what winners do.... WIN.

Since your complete argument is going to cling to a single stat, let's apply that logic to players.
If stopping the puck from going into the net is the be all end all for goaltenders, then surely putting the puck in the net is the only important stat for players....
So Bobby Orr wouldn't even rank in the top 50. "Orr is highly overated"... by YOUR criteria.

https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/reco...e-leaders.html

And no argument can be made that it's different because he's a defenseman, otherwise, all you could claim then is that Bobby Orr is the greatest DEFENSEMAN of all-time, but clearly not the best player.

....see how ridiculous it is to judge players by a single stat?

So much for "It's a simple concept".....