Betting on Major League Games late 1800s a New One For Me - Neat Pick Up!

[smokelessjoe]

Picked up what I think is a neat little gem. Not knowing what is was, I thought I would share what I have learned. This thing looks & feels like a card, but it is thicker (think of 3 1986 topps stacked on top).
Measures 1.25" x 2.25". Perhaps technically its a ticket? Back in the day these were purchased at a place referred to as a "Turf Exchange" or "Base Ball Exchange" - essentially a gambling hall. Sometimes referred to as a "Blind Tiger" which I had never heard of before. Most of the info I find ranges from about the mid 1880s - 1890s. I have found articles about raids, arrests, gunfights and grand openings! These places were apparently fairly shady, although some read as having the finest furniture and serving food 24 - 7

I have posted a few pages below and Highlighted the parts about how they bet on the Major League Base Ball games. It is really interesting to me...

I have tried to find something on the proprietor "W. P. Clements" shown on the ticket - The best I have done is a W.P. Clements horse breeder out of Lebanon Kentucky - about a 170 miles away from Evansville??? I have to wonder though, is Clements the REAL owners name? I found an interesting news article shown at the bottom of this page - A man reminisces about the turf exchange days and it is full of nicknames

Has anyone seen or have one of these? I apologize if all of this is common knowledge. Sometimes I am behind the times. Its just that I have never seen one before...

Would really like to hear your feed back and please read the Highlighted sections below.

Shawn

[ScottFandango]

Great piece of early sports betting history...

Outstanding....

And it probably the same guy who owned the horses...or they were using his name since it was known in the Indiana sports world.

Especially since it seems they transferred Paramutual horse betting to baseball.

[FrankWakefield]

Great stuff!!!!! Gambling was THE MAJOR problem with professional baseball. That's why the leagues put in strong rules about gambling. A good book about the gambling scourge is The Fix is In, and after reading that it is easier to understand why the Black Sox were dealt with as they were, and why Jackson and Rose should never get into the HOF.

Thanks for posting it, Shawn, and a fine job piecing together the history of it. If you haven't read The Fix is In then by all means get a copy.

FW

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Great stuff!!!!! Gambling was THE MAJOR problem with professional baseball. That's why the leagues put in strong rules about gambling. A good book about the gambling scourge is The Fix is In, and after reading that it is easier to understand why the Black Sox were dealt with as they were, and why Jackson and Rose should never get into the HOF.

Thanks for posting it, Shawn, and a fine job piecing together the history of it. If you haven't read The Fix is In then by all means get a copy.

FW

Agree with rose but shoeless is innocent...

Many of the other seven said late in their lives that joe was not in the fix meetings...his name was used to lend more credibility to the plot, but he wasn't involved....just because of a few anecdotal comments outside the courthouse, history believes joe was guilty...

Not to mention his performance in the series clearly shows he was the best
Player othe field still.... Also in eight men out, Asinof left out many facts that would have contradicted his guilty thesis....

[smokelessjoe]

Thanks Frank & Scott,

I have not read The Fix is In... I will have to get that book. As you can tell from allot of my LONG postings, I like to read

Have you guys ever seen one of these? I have to imagine these tickets are something you would just chunk away after the results especially if you did not win?? Maybe you would keep it if you won big

I wish I could figure out what teams were being bet on... Probably next to impossible.

[FrankWakefield]

Shawn, I've not seen one of those. It's remotely possible that an Indianapolis paper of the day might have an ad in it about ballgames. I doubt it would, though, because the ad would bring attention to the bookmaking. If an ad is there, it would be more on the line of sports schedule information rather than 'come bet with us'...

Scott, please read The Fix is In, then post again here about what you think. Jackson's 'star' will have tarnished a bit once you read it.

[Jaybird]

Nice research, Shawn. You've now put a story with an unusual item.

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

Agree with rose but shoeless is innocent...

Many of the other seven said late in their lives that joe was not in the fix meetings...his name was used to lend more credibility to the plot, but he wasn't involved....just because of a few anecdotal comments outside the courthouse, history believes joe was guilty...

Not to mention his performance in the series clearly shows he was the best
Player othe field still.... Also in eight men out, Asinof left out many facts that would have contradicted his guilty thesis....

If you've read Joe Jackson's grand jury testimony, he was promised $20K but only received $5. From his own mouth to the grand jury. He took money...

What else is there to say? If you want to read it, I can send a link which let's you download the entire testimony. Even if he didn't tank it, he knew of the fix, took money and did nothing. Guilty.

[ScottFandango]

What's missing in the testimony is the fact that they THREW the 5000 on his room floor because he didn't want to take it...they basically forced him in....but you can't force a player to play bad...he didn't play poorly like the rest of his teamates

[Jaybird]

I'm pretty sure you are going to have your opinion even after I post this but for anyone else who is interested, here is the testimony that talks about the money being thrown down.

Joe knew about it, was promised $20K, was annoyed that he didn't get all of it but still agreed to be a part of it. All in his own words. Everything else is speculation. This is testimony. First hand words from the man's own mouth.

Look, I think he was an amazing player as well and an interesting character in that he was caught up in something and didn't realize the implications and repercussions until it was over. That's what makes it tragic. Doesn't make him any less guilty, though.