Graded vs. Raw Rant.......

[gustomania]

So, I grew up in the 80s and collecting mostly mid-80s as a kid but many of those players have cards in the 70's some even the 60's.

While looking at some favorite RC's such as Mattingly, Gooden, Murray, Brett, etc, etc. I started having some questions. What exactly is my thing with PSA graded, I mean I do have virtually all my Koufax PC as PSA graded which I would never change......

BUT...……...when I look at most anything after 1970 and especially mid 70's and 80's its pretty easy to find a decent raw card in EX-MT or NM or even better in bulk. Yeah they might be slightly off center (actually its relatively easy to find centered on many cards TBH) and maybe not MINT or GEM MINT.

So where is that sort of cut off where you go, it has to be graded? I mean I get a RC of say Rose but I'm guessing a Carlton in Ex raw isn't a big deal.

It just strikes me that aside from the 50's and maybe early 60's there is such a major supply in decent shape what is the draw to graded for these?

It seems if I can find 1970 Topps baseball in Ex or better basically in bulk what draws someone to go buy it graded?

Open to thoughts from the experts.....

[mrreality68]

Graded is good for a couple of things

1. New people or inexperienced people getting into collecting and not knowledgeable on cards and afraid what they are buying is either not real or not worth as much as they thought
2. Graded cards are easier to research and compare prices for those same people (we all understand buy the card not the slab but that is not true for everyone)
3. The slabs are good for protecting the cards
4. The Higher End Cards, Rarer cards, and cards with high values tend to sell more in a slab since for example when you put on ebey, auction, etc more people will buy/bid on slabbed cards vs non slabbed card.
5. The biggest value on Raw Cards to the true collector it is the best type of cards and also Raw cards cost to much to slab (unless already slabbed and takes too long although getting better) so keeping it Raw you do not have to worry about those things.
6. Slabbing is becoming more popular as it turns more into a business vs collecting. as you can see at National Show how long lines were, or if you looking at all the grading companies and how many cards they are grading and the backlog many are experiencing and also how much people are willing to pay

[gustomania]

Thanks Jeff, great summary and i'm with you on those points.

Where i'm going with this is more on the lines of a collector viewpoint I guess, sort of ok, well I can pick up a raw Brett RC and any of his other topps base cards from 76-80 for nothing in maybe ex or nm and those are pretty easy to find with pretty low risk tbh.

When the cards are that plentiful (and to be honest in the example above nm-mt is pretty common for anything other than the RC) why pay the premium for graded.

I guess when I buy raw, I don't focus on the overall condition of say a 70's card as long as I feel its somewhere on the lines of "looks good".

Anyway, trying to see what people thoughts are on that dotted line, where is that line where finding a 1965 Gibson in EX is so tough I'm relegated to just buying the PSA 5?

Maybe there is not concrete answer, and everyone collects whatever they like but was curious what collectors on this forum think, especially those who do collect raw over graded.

[homerunhitter]

I created a thread already about this exact topic! And my takeover from all the wonderful advice I got for it. Is that as much as I love raw cards (I’m a true collector not an investor) it appears that graded cards are here to stay in fact, graded cards are transforming our hobby. I say that because as the younger collectors/generation is coming in they are being conditioned that graded cards are cool and hip! Just check out the national as an example. Tons and I mean Tons of people waking around with their pelican cases filled with graded cards. 9 out of 10 Facebook, Instagram, you tube posts are about or showcase graded cards. Graded cards are everywhere! Some will argue that we are headed into s junk down era. I believe we are not as graded cards will become the norm from here on out as newer collectors come into the hobby and us old farts exit the hobby. The tone of the hobby right now is graded is cool!

[gustomania]

Good points!

I feel like i'm headed down a different path. I collect Koufax in PSA and love that PC and wont change that collection. Thinking about going back down into my roots how I collected as a kid which is just raw (yes, I put my cards in spokes and didn't have any sleeves for them).

Hard for me to justify buying say a 77 Murphy PSA 8 or 9 when I can be happy with a NM or NMMT raw card for a fraction and if I want, throw that bad boy in my bike spokes one...….more...…...time. I joke but clearly I'm not in the majority here.

[ALBB]

I dont think Id ever pay to have late 70s/ 80s cards graded

[JollyElm]

It's sort of the way cell phones became prominent. In the beginning, very few people had them and others couldn't care less, but then a sea change occurred and everyone on the planet now possesses one, and then gets a better one, and then upgrades that one and on and on. Graded cards used to be a fluke, and many thought it was a passing phase...but look at where we are now. That aspect of card collecting will continue to grow exponentially. That toothpaste is not only out of the tube, but it's been washed down the drain.

Harking back to the OP regarding newer cards, when I started having my own stuff graded through the group subs (all hail Bobby!!!), my cut-off year was 1972 or possibly 1973, with no thought of ever submitting anything newer, because the stuff was way too plentiful. These days? Now I'm looking to the end of the 1970's and even sent in a 1980 hockey card. Again, things have changed, and there's no going back.

But I still freakin' love the smell of old cardboard...

74. Auramatic
Having the pleasingly fragrant, musty old cardboard scent which returns you to the wonders of your card collecting childhood.

[homerunhitter]

Agree with you! I did an experiment. I sat Down and went through a box of raw vintage cards and then I went through a box of graded vintage cards. Raw cards just pop differently. Something about actually holding a raw card beats holding the same card graded.

Some people might argue that people like graded because they want to know that their card is authentic and not fake. I get that point but does anyone want to open the can of worms of just how many FAKEe psa graded are our in the hobby. Most people want to just turn their head and pretend like there are not fake psa slabs out there. But there is!

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by gustomania

So where is that sort of cut off where you go, it has to be graded?

It would depend on three factors:

1. Am I buying in-person or relying on pictures?
2. Do I know (and how much do I trust) the seller?
3. What is the value of the card?

If I have the opportunity to view the card in-hand, I'm more likely to purchase a raw card. My post-war collecting is mainly Topps & Bowman. I've handled enough of them to purchase ungraded examples confidently.

If I've built a rapport with the seller, and they've earned my trust, I'm fine with purchasing raw. Of course, I'll ask some questions first to make sure that (a) they're confident it's real and unaltered and (b) that they'll make things right if the card is not real and unaltered.

Value; that's where the rubber meets the road, isn't it? I've purchased raw cards for a couple hundred dollars or so, and felt comfortable doing so. Anything higher than that, I'll go graded 99% of the time. The exception would be when I can check boxes 1 and 2, above.

[homerunhitter]

Let’s see some more updates!

[jingram058]

I do not have any graded cards. I cracked out all the ones I have, but kept the "flips" (if that is the correct term). I keep my high value cards and memorabilia in my safe deposit box. Occasionally, I take some of them out, to show them off somewhere, but then I put them back. It is not far away from where I live. My cards are just cards, a real no-kidding hobby, much like how I went about collecting as a kid, except they cost a lot more and I don't get them out of wax packs. I have traded on occasion, much to the mutual satisfaction of myself and those I traded with, I believe. This is pretty much what I occasionally did as a kid also. I do not plan to have any of my cards graded and I do not collect thinking of value down the road or investment. I do not care one iota for someone else's opinion of my cards, unless we're trading. This forum is all about graded cards and investment. I get that. I still like and respect these guys for their wealth of knowledge and the gorgeous, rare as Hell cards they post, nevertheless there are many, many people out there who have, sell and collect raw cards. I know a few who live near me. So I am by no means the only one. My 2 cents, take it or leave it...

[gonefishin]

Grading cards definitely has a place in the marketplace. With that said, I don't really see the need to send in newer, for me it is 1970 and up, for grading with a one year exception. That exception is 1971 Topps. My main reasoning with that year is of course the black borders. Without some sort of protection, they will easily get damaged, etc. Encapsulation does provide a "fool proof" method of protection for those cards.

[mortimer brewster]

Originally Posted by jingram058

This forum is all about graded cards and investment. I get that. I still like and respect these guys for their wealth of knowledge and the gorgeous, rare as Hell cards they post, nevertheless there are many, many people out there who have, sell and collect raw cards. I know a few who live near me. So I am by no means the only one. My 2 cents, take it or leave it...

I agree with this. I've been to 12 of the last 13 Nationals and it warms my heart to see collectors of all ages thumbing through binders of cards clutching their checklists.

To me, there is nothing like the aromatic smell of old cardboard. It is almost orgasmi.. nevermind.

I only own a few graded cards. Most I popped out of their cases. This grading thing is just not for me but to each his/her own.

One thing I am curious about though.What exactly qualifies an individual to be a professional card grader anyway? Do they go to card grading school?

[cesarcap]

There is a peace of mind when paying $$ for something slabbed though I know the major players have had issues w fake cards. But I'm a binder guy so thumbing through one is fun and quick versus hauling out boxes of slabbed cards which I look at honestly 2-3x a year since they are stored away in shelves and not properly displayed.... But I often end up with 2 cards: one slabbed and one for the binder which gets expensive for the PC.

[jchcollins]

To me anymore, it largely depends on your goals for your collection, and when if ever you may want to sell that collection. I own a lot of graded cards simply because for the money I was spending in a lot of cases online, I didn’t want to take risks. But due to the inherent subjectivity in all grading, it’s difficult to put too fine of a point on anything due to the fluctuation in quality which exists anyway.

Currently, my own personal opinion is that vintage grading is more all over the place than it’s ever been. Especially with marquee names like Mantle, Aaron, Ryan, and others - you can send in a super sharp card and you may get a 7 - but you might also get a 4 or a 5. This element of subjectivity NEVER changes with the big names, and many collectors can never quite seem to grasp that.

My favorite place to play these days is with raw, lower technical grade cards that present well and still retain eye appeal. The hidden creases that take an otherwise EX Mays to G. The subtle t/b centering shift that turns a NM+ looking Mantle into an EX-MT card. The bargain especially at LCS’s that can sometimes be had on cards like this can be fantastic.


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[homerunhitter]

Great points!

[homerunhitter]

Weekend bump!

[homerunhitter]

Any other thoughts on this?

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

Any other thoughts on this?

Family members would likely have an easier time converting your collection into cash should something happen to you.

[Lucas00]

I only have a few words to say on Graded vs Raw. My philosophy is this,
You can always Break a graded card out. So it doesn't matter if the card is graded or not, I see them as the same thing. Just a fancier Top loader that is sealed

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

You can always Break a graded card out. So it doesn't matter if the card is graded or not, I see them as the same thing. Just a fancier Top loader that is sealed

Exactly. For pretty much this reason, I've never bought the "preservation" argument for grading. A PSA slab does not protect your card more than putting it in a One Touch and sealing that up in a bag. It just doesn't. And even with toploaders and card savers, unless you are just a novice that doesn't know what you are doing - your cards are going to be extremely well protected assuming you don't leave them out in the rain or in a shed with a leaky roof or something.

Yes, grading preserves cards, but you don't have to put cards only in holders they can't be taken out of to preserve them either.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

I only have a few words to say on Graded vs Raw. My philosophy is this,
You can always Break a graded card out. So it doesn't matter if the card is graded or not, I see them as the same thing. Just a fancier Top loader that is sealed

Nice to know I'm not the only collector who's had that thought.

[G1911]

Only a crazy person would break a graded card out of a slab.

[rugbymarine]

Originally Posted by G1911

Only a crazy person would break a graded card out of a slab.

That is a great picture!

[rnocards]

I collect both raw and graded, but I'm always looking to grade my worthy raw cards. Recently, I've sent a few of those raw cards to the players for their autos (TTM), and will then submit them to PSA for dual grading.

The newer generation is preferring graded cards, for various reasons, and there will come a time when my collection will have to be passed on, so it's best for this collection to be in graded slabs, as much as possible.

[ALR-bishop]

I have ungraded most graded cards I have purchased . Whoever ends up with my cards will just have to deal with the lack of plastic Hate to think how much all my cards graded would weigh.

[rnocards]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I have ungraded most graded cards I have purchased . Whoever ends up with my cards will just have to deal with the lack of plastic Hate to think how much all my cards graded would weigh.

You cracked them because of weight?

[G1911]

I crack graded cards because of the weight. I can carry more from my storage area to my card table area if they are raw. Things may be different for more muscular vintage collectors if they exist.

[ALR-bishop]

If you collect all of the Topps, , Bowman and Fleer sets, the weight becomes a very hefty factor, in more ways than one