OT: Who would you put on your sports Mt. Rushmore. This is harder than it sounds...

[PolarBear]

One thing I will say about baseball icons, since this is a baseball forum is how could anyone not think Babe Ruth is the greatest baseball player of all time?

I mean it's not even close. Ruth absolutely dominated every aspect of baseball. The man had over 700 home runs with a .342 lifetime batting average. The only person who even comes close to that type of power and average is Ted Williams.

But then, you have to consider that Ruth also won almost 100 games as a pitcher, with a 67% winning percentage and 2.28 ERA. In 1916 he went 23-12 and lead the league with a 1.75 ERA and 9 shutouts. He also beat Walter Johnson in 4 of their 5 duels that year.

Babe Ruth could have had a lifetime batting average of .215 and 37 home runs and easily been an HOF pitcher with 300+ wins.

I don't think this can be overstated. Babe Ruth absolutely dominated the entire game of baseball.

That's why I laugh to myself when people try and say Willie Mays or Hank Aaron, etc., etc., are the greatest players in baseball history. Yeah right. When Willie Mays raises his lifetime batting average 50 points and finds 100 wins as a pitcher, then we can discuss him even entering the same room with Ruth.

Ok, feel free to discuss.

[GaryPassamonte]

Babe Ruth, Jim Brown, Wilt Chamberlain, Jim Thorpe

[deeg23]

Babe Ruth and Michael Jordan are easily the greatest sports icons of all time (in USA at least).

Then I like the idea of Serena being up there as well considering she's been the most dominant women's tennis player ever!

I would definitely include Brady, but all this cheating nonsense is just too much to put him up in my mind even though I think he's incredible!

Cultural significance and what they did for society should play a factor too buuuttttt...

I'm gonna have to say:

** , ** , Ali and then I'm going with Pele because why not


*If Lebron wins a title in Cleveland, in ten years he is a contender for mine!

[jason.1969]

How about Greg Brock, Todd Van Poppel, Ben McDonald, and Brien Taylor?

Get it? We're carving busts of athletes into a mountain. Busts!

[Jobu]

Surprised to see Ickey Woods mentioned

On second thought, the Ickey Shuffle was pretty iconic.

Originally Posted by Wahoowa

Ruth, Jordan, Gretzky, Brady

Although my personal Mt. Rushmore would be different:
WaJo, Ripken, Woods, Ovechkin

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

How about Greg Brock, Todd Van Poppel, Ben McDonald, and Brien Taylor?

Get it? We're carving busts of athletes into a mountain. Busts!

Then you missed Mark Lewis. I still have a stack of his cards.

[Rookiemonster]

Ruth did not face any good pitchers he face the same guys over and over . The only pitcher he faced was lefty grove . The pitchers he face were worn down over worked and were not the best of the best . Because it was only whites in baseball .

Mays faced the best pitchers of all time Koufax , Gibson , Spahn , drysdale Etc
He played in the polo grounds . , seal stadium , candlestick the biggest and windiest park in the majors you can't say Ruth would have any better success . He faced racism . He have prime years to the Koreanwar efforts . Ruth could not field even a quarter the mays could . Run or steal bases I don't think there is any argument there that mays was the man . Bottom line mays was the best there was . Or at very least nothing to laugh at .

[jason.1969]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Ruth did not face any good pitchers he face the same guys over and over . The only pitcher he faced was lefty grove . The pitchers he face were worn down over worked and were not the best of the best . Because it was only whites in baseball .

Mays faced the best pitchers of all time Koufax , Gibson , Spahn , drysdale Etc
He played in the polo grounds . , seal stadium , candlestick the biggest and windiest park in the majors you can't say Ruth would have any better success . He faced racism . He have prime years to the Koreanwar efforts . Ruth could not field even a quarter the mays could . Run or steal bases I don't think there is any argument there that mays was the man . Bottom line mays was the best there was . Or at very least nothing to laugh at .

These are great points. As freakish as the Babe's numbers were and as genuine as his talent was, I have to imagine Mays would have dominated that same era even more.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Ruth did not face any good pitchers he face the same guys over and over . The only pitcher he faced was lefty grove . The pitchers he face were worn down over worked and were not the best of the best . Because it was only whites in baseball .

Mays faced the best pitchers of all time Koufax , Gibson , Spahn , drysdale Etc
He played in the polo grounds . , seal stadium , candlestick the biggest and windiest park in the majors you can't say Ruth would have any better success . He faced racism . He have prime years to the Koreanwar efforts . Ruth could not field even a quarter the mays could . Run or steal bases I don't think there is any argument there that mays was the man . Bottom line mays was the best there was . Or at very least nothing to laugh at .

It's pointless to compare player eras. The best argument you have with that is Mays would have been as good a hitter as Ruth in the 1920's or Ruth would have lost 50 batting average points and 100 home runs playing in the 50's. Doubtful on both counts. (and by the way, you conveniently left out the fact that Ruth faced Johnson, the BEST pitcher in MLB history).

Was Mays faster than Ruth? I'm sure he was. How much did that really matter though. Not much. Mays had 338 stolen bases, 120th place on the career list, right ahead of Joe Tinker. Mays wasn't exactly a superstar threat on the base paths.

However, you're forgetting my main point about Ruth. Like I said, when Mays coughs up 100 wins as an MLB pitcher, we can discuss how he's a better overall player than Ruth.

I'm not saying Mays wasn't a great player, even a top tier HOFer. I'm just saying that Mays, or anyone else, can't come close to Ruth as the best overall player in MLB history. Ruth was good at everything, not just chasing down fly balls in the outfield.

[Touch'EmAll]

Babe Ruth - was the best at what he did, hit home runs
Nolan Ryan - was the best at what he did, throw fastest and strikeouts
Satchel Paige - My wild card, who really knows the wonders of Paige
Michael Phelps - was the best at what he did - win Olympic Gold

[Rookiemonster]

Ruth was not good at running bases or fielding if there was a gold glove award he would not have won 1 . Walter Johnson was already 31 years old in 1919 . And it is not pointless to compare eras . He only played against whites and it wasn't even the best white players because most didn't want to play ball because there was no money to be made . I think mays in the 20s in Yankee stadium would have Put the most ridiculous numbers ever . Even if mays was not the best he sure was close as we will ever get .

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Ruth was not good at running bases or fielding if there was a gold glove award he would not have won 1 . Walter Johnson was already 31 years old in 1919 . And it is not pointless to compare eras . He only played against whites and it wasn't even the best white players because most didn't want to play ball because there was no money to be made . I think mays in the 20s in Yankee stadium would have Put the most ridiculous numbers ever . Even if mays was not the best he sure was close as we will ever get .

I'm really not trying to argue just for the sake of arguing but you keep ignoring my main point. Does Mays have 100 pitching wins? He doesn't. Until he does, he's not even in the same room as Ruth.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

How about Greg Brock, Todd Van Poppel, Ben McDonald, and Brien Taylor?

Get it? We're carving busts of athletes into a mountain. Busts!

You forgot The Boz

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Ruth was not good at running bases or fielding if there was a gold glove award he would not have won 1 . Walter Johnson was already 31 years old in 1919 . And it is not pointless to compare eras . He only played against whites and it wasn't even the best white players because most didn't want to play ball because there was no money to be made . I think mays in the 20s in Yankee stadium would have Put the most ridiculous numbers ever . Even if mays was not the best he sure was close as we will ever get .

No money to be made? Babe Ruth made more than the President of the United States. Players didn't make what they do today, but stars made a lot more than the average person. Ruth's peak salary of 80k was more than most players of the 50's and 60s, so by your logic, Mays didn’t play against the best players either, because salaries were nothing like they are today.

[mark evans]

There is some arbitrariness here as each of us has his preferred sports, and hard to calculate and consider both performance and public impact.

Ruth
Ali
Jordan
Palmer


Long second tier: Mays, J. Robinson, Jim Brown, Wilt, Kareem, Serena, Gretzky, Nicklaus (better than Palmer but Arnie's timing more impactful)

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

And it is not pointless to compare eras . He only played against whites and it wasn't even the best white players because most didn't want to play ball because there was no money to be made .

This statement struck me as biased nonsense and to confirm, I did a few google searches on average laborer wages in the 1920's and compared it to average baseball salaries.

The average laborer was lucky to make $1000 a year, and often much less than that, as low as $300 a year. Henry Ford's unheard of wage of $5 a day was only $1250 a year.

The average baseball player made 5-10x the wage of the average laborer. I have no doubt the best white baseball players were actually playing MLB baseball in the 1920's.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Being a hopeless baseball fan, all four of my representatives are baseball players:

Babe Ruth
Jackie Robinson
Roberto Clemente
Ted Williams

(Sorry Hank Aaron and Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle and Ty Cobb)

[pgellis]

Rosie Ruiz
Barry Bonds
Danny Almonte
Tom Brady

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Did you ever hear of a guy named Brady?

lol brady is a great player, on many great teams with probably the best or top 3 best coach ever. Manning put up numbers on some bad teams overall, the guy I think is the best QB ever - its too bad he didn't have a better team around him. And im a giant fan

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

If you're looking purely at statistics for football, nobody has ever dominated the game like Don Hutson. He played 11 years, led the league in catches eight times, in yards receiving seven times, in touchdown catches nine times. He led the league in all three categories at once five times. The record of 99 receiving touchdowns he scored stood for 44 years until Steve Largent broke it in 1989. Hutson scored 99 times in 116 games. It took Largent 198 games to score 100. Don Hutson was the Babe Ruth of the NFL. Besides catching 488 passes for 7,991 yards and 99 TD, Hutson ran for 284 yards and 3 TD, kicked 172 extra points, 7 field goals, and intercepted 30 passes for 389 yards and a TD. He was first team All Pro each of his last eight seasons!

Cold Hard Football Facts nicely summarizes why Hutson, not Rice, is the best receiver to ever play the game.

looking at manning I saw and still see a guy who not only is a grate player but makes his whole team that much better. If im not mistaken the season he was out with injury his team that finished 10-6 previous season, went 2-10 without him then when he came back went 11-5.

A quick comparison to bradyin 2008 they went 11-5 with brady out for the season and mat cassell in at QB. That team was solid and with a great coach. Manning was the whole team more often than not

[jason.1969]

One approach is to honor great players who were also great people. If I were taking my son to Mt Sportsmore, I'd want to be able to tell stories that showcased character rather than just athletic talent. Some candidates--

Jackie Robinson - racial justice
Roberto Clemente - humanitarian
LeBron James - sending thousands of kids to college and funding GEDs for their parents
Bob Feller - First to enlist after Pearl Harbor
Muhammad Ali - Protested unjust war

I would rather my son see these guys as heroes than Jordan or Brady, guys I see who used their fame and wealth to buy toys and feed their egos.

[bbcard1]

If you don't start with Ruth/Jordan, you're just being argumentative. I think I would fill out with Thorpe and then probably Jackie Robinson. I have some reservations about Jackie as he is clearly not among the greatest athletes, but is one of the most influential people in American history...and often gets less than his due because he was an athlete.

Others I strongly considered:

Billie Jean King
Wayne Gretzky
Jim Brown
Richard Petty
Vince Lombari / Bear Bryant
Mark Spitz

[jason.1969]

Hard to agree that Jackie was not one of the greatest athletes. I assume the statement is based solely on his MLB stats. I think he was arguably at the ELITE level in football, basketball, track, baseball, and even tennis. He was probably the most gifted athlete of the 20th century. Keep in mind that he wasn't able to make his MLB debut until the age of 28 for reasons well beyond his control.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Rusty Kuntz, Pete LaCock, Dick Cox and Bock Hooker...

Oh wait, wrong thread...

Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, Jim Thorpe, Wayne Gretzky.

Jim Thorpe may have been the greatest athlete from 1900-Present, and the other three are usually mentioned in discussions regarding the greatest player of all-time within their respective sports.

Eric, I'm ashamed of you. I thought that you, of all our forum members, would take this kind of thing seriously.

Oh, and you forgot Dick Trickle (hey, we are including all sports here!)

Thorpe and the aforementioned Babe Didrikson are both interesting choices. It's just so hard to pick only four. I wanted to include persons that aspired to excellence, while simultaneously elevating sports to a higher level. Jesse Owens was another I thought of.

Keep it up, guys. Some good choices I hadn't thought of.

BTW, I want to go on record as saying that I won't object to Miss Rousey's inclusion in this discussion. I would be afraid to. I'm banged up enough as it is. I've seen what she will do to the human arm, and I like the use of both of mine.

[Rookiemonster]

Polar bear I did not ignore the pitching I just countered it with the fact he could not field or run bases . Making less of player in right field . The stats of what people made does not show what people really did . And that was go to work for there family because baseball was not considered a job . Or there was a family business that had to go in to . Most people did not allow there son to grow up and play baseball ( Lou Gehrig ) ( joe DiMaggio) were all told not to play imagine is the listened . And imagine how many did or didn't have a chos. After war world one there was a way lower population in America . There was not this a big pool of people to choose from . It came down to men that took it upon them self to play just a example let says you have to fill you teams out of a pool of guys that were just the guys that decided that had nothing better to do . Or in the 50s with a booming population of white , black , Spanish to choose from . And I'm sure little league teams were a lot better at bringing up kid to play ball . Mays would have most beat the HR if it wasn't for the Korean War . Then if you put him in Yankee stadium who know what he could have done . Yankee stadium was made for Ruth to hit home runs out of . And polar bear it's not arugeing it's a debate . And most players had to get a job in the off season lol wasn't the 1919 black sox incident caused the low pay ?

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

looking at manning I saw and still see a guy who not only is a grate player but makes his whole team that much better. If im not mistaken the season he was out with injury his team that finished 10-6 previous season, went 2-10 without him then when he came back went 11-5.

A quick comparison to bradyin 2008 they went 11-5 with brady out for the season and mat cassell in at QB. That team was solid and with a great coach. Manning was the whole team more often than not

I'm not saying that Manning wasn't a great quarterback. Far from it. I would be hard pressed to come up with a top 5 list of all-time quarterbacks, and not have him in it. But one thing needs to be kept in mind about Manning. He played at least half of his games indoors, every year. From 1998-2001, he played at least 8 games at the RCA Dome. From 2002-2010, he played at least 9 of his 16 games every year indoors (with an away game at Houston every season). That was a huge advantage as far as passing statistics are concerned. No wind. No precipitation whatsoever. No cold hands to drop passes. He played a majority of his games in a climate controlled dome. Now, these numbers aren't exactly indicative of his home/road splits while in Indianapolis (because he's now played a few seasons at Denver), but his career QB rating at home is 100.6, and it's 93.4 on the road. Still excellent in both places, and his 96.9 QB rating is the third highest of all-time. But he clearly benefited from playing in perfect conditions. Compare his numbers to those of Aaron Rodgers. Yes, the rules have changed even more in favor of offense in recent years-that's why it's hard, in my humble opinion, to compare great passers from different eras. But if you look at what Rodgers has done in Green Bay, it's mind boggling. He has a 106.3 career QB rating, and he will usually play 3 games each year indoors (Detroit, Minnesota, and at least one non-divisional opponent like Atlanta, or St. Louis). But his career QB rating--away from Lambeau, which is supposed to be this huge advantage, is 100.2. He has thrown 108 TD passes and only 35 INTs. If you took away all of his home game statistics, and took only his numbers from the road, he'd still be the highest rated QB in NFL history.

Why am I gushing about Rodgers? I'm trying to reinforce how hard it is to extrapolate a few numbers, and pick "the best" in any sport, especially football where there are only 16 games a season. Do I think Rodgers is the best passer in NFL history? It's hard to say, though he belongs in the conversation, as is a first ballot Hall of Famer if he retired today. But do I look at the career passer rating list, and say that Dan Marino is the 19th best quarterback to ever play the game? Is Joe Montana 10th best? Bart Starr is tied for 56th, and Johnny Unitas 77th best.

While Manning has put up some huge numbers, I think the guys I just named, had they played in today's NFL, would have put up the same eye popping numbers, if not better.

[jcmtiger]

Ty Cobb, Ali, Gordie Howe and Jim Brown

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

lol brady is a great player, on many great teams with probably the best or top 3 best coach ever. Manning put up numbers on some bad teams overall, the guy I think is the best QB ever - its too bad he didn't have a better team around him. And im a giant fan

Coach!? I don't think you've heard of Brady...


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[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

Manning was the whole team more often than not

Wait, I missed this before. Manning was the whole team more often than not??

Between 1999 and 2005, Manning had one of the dominant running backs in the NFL in the back in Edgerrin James. James ran for 1,553 yards in 1999, 1,709 yards in 2000 (leading the NFL both seasons), 1,259 yards in 2003, 1,548 yards in 2004, and 1,506 yards in 2005. He ran for 9,226 yards and 64 touchdowns in seven seasons, and would have easily cracked 10k yards if he had not missed 12 games in 2001 and 2002. He's probably a Hall of Famer, with 12,246 yards rushing, 80 TDs, 3,364 yards receiving and 11 TD.

Then there were his receivers. He had Marvin Harrison, a future Hall of Famer, for nearly his entire time in Indy. Between 1998 and 2008, Harrison caught 965 passes for 12,878 yards and 114 TD catches. Harrison made the Pro Bowl eight times, and was first team NFL All-Pro three times. And, starting in 2001, he also had Reggie Wayne. From 2004-2010, Wayne was a superstar for Manning, too. From 2001-2010, Wayne caught 787 passes for 10,748 yards and 69 TD. The duo combined for 2,172 receptions, 28,925 yards and 208 TD catches. Between them, they made 14 Pro Bowls, and were 4 times NFL All-Pro. Three Hall of Famers Manning had on offense with him for the vast majority of his career.

How many Hall of Famers were on offense for Brett Favre? Any? Sterling Sharpe would have been, but he was forced to retire in 1994, Favre's third season. He had some really good players-Robert Brooks had a huge season, and a second 1,000 yard season after blowing out his knee. Antonio Freeman made a Pro Bowl, and had a few 1,000 yard seasons. He had Donald Driver for the second half of his career. None of those guys are going to Canton. What about running backs? The best he had was Ahman Green, who became a star in Favre's ninth season. Before that, he had Edgar Bennett and a couple of good seasons from Dorsey Levens (one Pro Bowl appearance). None of these guys are all timers. Yet Favre won three MVP Awards, won a Super Bowl for the Packers, and broke most every passing record. Did Manning do more to make his team better than Favre? Food for thought.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

lol brady is a great player, on many great teams with probably the best or top 3 best coach ever. Manning put up numbers on some bad teams overall, the guy I think is the best QB ever - its too bad he didn't have a better team around him. And im a giant fan

Nine one and dones. There is really nothing to discuss.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2013...ne-dones-fault

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

He has a 106.3 career QB rating, and he will usually play 3 games each year indoors (Detroit, Minnesota, and at least one non-divisional opponent like Atlanta, or St. Louis).

Hey, we played outdoors here last year and this year, didn't you see how awesome Blair Walsh is kicking outdoors?

It's not that Manning had HOF receivers and Favre didn't. Manning made them HOF receivers. Just like Brady made Welker one.


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[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Nine one and dones. There is really nothing to discuss.



http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2013...ne-dones-fault

Ummmm, yeah there is. Didn't win as many rings as he would have liked clearly, but you simply cannot just ignore his regular season numbers because of what happened in the playoffs. That is ridiculous.


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[Laxcat]

Cobb -baseball
Jim Brown- football but takes care of lacrosse as well
Jordan- 2nd place Pistol Pete
Richard- for hockey. Don't like Gretzky and Howe is too obvious

[jason.1969]

One thing that puzzles me about Ruth...I think it was in my 1955 Sports Illustrated with Alston on the cover that a bunch of old baseball men were asked to name the best baseball player ever. I remember Cobb chose Wagner, as did a couple other guys. A few guys chose Cobb. And I think only one guy chose Ruth.

I suppose you could argue these guys were purists who thought the home run ruined baseball, but it did make me wonder.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

One thing that puzzles me about Ruth...I think it was in my 1955 Sports Illustrated with Alston on the cover that a bunch of old baseball men were asked to name the best baseball player ever. I remember Cobb chose Wagner, as did a couple other guys. A few guys chose Cobb. And I think only one guy chose Ruth.

I suppose you could argue these guys were purists who thought the home run ruined baseball, but it did make me wonder.

Or maybe because they were all better overall players than Ruth except in the HR/power dept and pitching category.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Ummmm, yeah there is. Didn't win as many rings as he would have liked clearly, but you simply cannot just ignore his regular season numbers because of what happened in the playoffs. That is ridiculous.


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Sure I can. With his abysmal playoff record he cannot plausibly be considered the best QB ever. And wherever you rank Brady, he cannot plausibly be considered better than Brady with 4 wins and something like 21-8 overall.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Laxcat

Cobb -baseball
Jim Brown- football but takes care of lacrosse as well
Jordan- 2nd place Pistol Pete
Richard- for hockey. Don't like Gretzky and Howe is too obvious

Pistol Pete over Chamberlain, Jabbar, Russell, Magic, LeBron, Oscar, Bird? Yeah he had some amazing moves but come on.

[gawaintheknight]

You absolutely have to have Jackie Robinson. After that we can argue.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Or maybe because they were all better overall players than Ruth except in the HR/power dept and pitching category.


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Other than that Mrs. Lincoln how was the play? Oh and he only hit .342. And led the league in walks nearly every year.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Other than that Mrs. Lincoln how was the play? Oh and he only hit .342.

Oh so sorry, guess I should have made it clearer he can hit.


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[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sure I can. With his abysmal playoff record he cannot plausibly be considered the best QB ever. And wherever you rank Brady, he cannot plausibly be considered better than Brady with 4 wins and something like 21-8 overall.

Sure he absolutely can. You going to put Bumgarner in the HOF or call in the greatest pitcher of all time cause he was good in the postseason. Or any player for that matter who has a good postseason track record but did nothing in the regular season.


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[robw1959]

Here's an interesting fact: In a span of 25 years, modern statisticians measured the distance of every MLB home run and discovered that there was only one instance in which a batter hit a homer that traveled 500 feet. In 1920, the first year that Ruth became a full-time batter for the Yanks, he hit a 500+ foot home run in EVERY single ball park he played in! There never has been and never will be another batter with more power than Ruth.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by robw1959

Here's an interesting fact: In a span of 25 years, modern statisticians measured the distance of every MLB home run and discovered that there was only one instance in which a batter hit a homer that traveled 500 feet. In 1920, the first year that Ruth became a full-time batter for the Yanks, he hit a 500+ foot home run in EVERY single ball park he played in! There never has been and never will be another batter with more power than Ruth.

Very cool! Do you have a link to that source?


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[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

It's not that Manning had HOF receivers and Favre didn't. Manning made them HOF receivers. Just like Brady made Welker one.


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Oh, please. You're grasping at straws. We could say that about every great wide receiver that's ever played the game.

Joe Montana and Steve Young made Jerry Rice a Hall of Famer.

By the way, Reggie Wayne, at age 34, had 106 catches for 1,355 yards in 2012 after Manning was already gone.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Oh, please. You're grasping at straws. We could say that about every great wide receiver that's ever played the game.



Joe Montana and Steve Young made Jerry Rice a Hall of Famer.



By the way, Reggie Wayne, at age 34, had 106 catches for 1,355 yards in 2012 after Manning was already gone.

Don't kid yourself. You could say that, but you would be wrong. Some receivers are made from the system they are in. That's why Welker was a flop everywhere until he went to the Pats.

Harrison was nothing special and did nothing before Manning. And please, one season. What did Wayne do in 2011? 2013? 2014? And where is he now?


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Welker played all of three seasons pre Pats and the third one had 67 receptions for a 10 yard average. And all but one game was for Miami (flop "everywhere" lol). You are just spouting nonsense for the hell of it, it seems.

You want an interesting stat on Welker, look at the decline in production going from Brady to the great Manning.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Welker played all of three seasons pre Pats and the third one had 67 receptions for a 10 yard average. You are just spouting nonsense for the hell of it, it seems.

Nonsense? You just do not get it do you or you don't know what you're talking about, it seems. I'll go with you don't know what you're talking about, in terms of football.

Didn't realize this was so difficult for you to comprehend. So Welker being cut and limited to special teams in the early part of his career doesn't mean anything to you? Hmmmm I wonder if it's because he didn't have a good quarter back...or a good system...or coaches...sure as hell looks that way if you look up 2007, first year with the Pats.

I'm done with this thread.


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[jason.1969]

In chaos theory, we would say the dynamical system that is this thread has made its way toward the two attractors of "Manning v Brady" and "Ruth v Mays." We could come back in 30 more posts and see the same debates in their same unresolved states...or just recognize that ALL these folks already have a HOF to enshrine their legacies. So if we're building an alternate shrine, how about Rose, Shoeless Joe, Bonds, and Clemens?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You want an interesting stat on Welker, look at the decline in production going from Brady to the great Manning.

Just stop talking, you're making yourself look like an idiot with things you don't know.

2013: you have DT as your number 1, not Welker. He had a smaller role. Welker scored more TD'S in that one year than he ever did with the great Tom Brady for a single season. Interesting to say the least.

2014: Idk, maybe if you knew what you were talking about you would have known he had concussion problems.



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[Peter_Spaeth]

What don't you understand? By his third season, very early in his career, he had 67 receptions and a very respectable 10 yard average, similar to the rest of his career. ON MIAMI. Sorry the facts don't fit your narrative.