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  #201  
Old 01-26-2023, 11:56 AM
Jim65's Avatar
Jim65 Jim65 is offline
Jam.es Braci.liano
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bnorth View Post
Johan Santana was a beast. Watched him pitch many times in the old Metrodome.


I like Johan too but does anyone think he is better than those other pitchers based on 1 stat? I don't
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  #202  
Old 01-26-2023, 12:30 PM
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nolemmings nolemmings is offline
Todd Schultz
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Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
Then stop making claims of fact that are provable false, sir.



Pujols was better. Edmonds and Abreu had some years that are better than some of Rolen's years. That, of course, is not and never has been a standard for the Hall. Almost no player has been the best player on his team every year. How many HOFers have not had other HOF teammates? To say that Edmonds was better than Rolen some years is true, as I said above if you read, it's just irrelevant to the topic and an illogical standard created only for one player and used only for that player because it suits what you want.



It's not about victory, it's about actual fact. People who completely make up claims to fact that do not survive even a cursory check tend to get told that. Sucks.

Yogi Berra didn't lead the league much or at all either, and no one wants to keep him out. You could make a reasonable argument that he was never top of the league, but you don't need to lie and exaggerate in your claims to fact to do this - Rolen's ink is low.

But yet again, you have just made claims to fact that are completely false. "Give me the analytics to discount, ignore or disregard the fact that Rolen never finished in the top 10 of any remarkable category". This is completely and absolutely false, it is not a fact. Rolen did, in fact, finish in the top 10 in significant categories like slugging %, OPS+, on base %, dWAR, range factor, and many more. This information is publicly available and easily accessible to anyone here https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...olensc01.shtml in the Leaderboards section. Again, you are just completely making things up.

You can make a reasoned argument against Rolen, at best he's in the lower part of the Hall of the Fame. You don't need to keep lying to do it.
It seems you insist on remaining a douchebag, although perhaps asshole is more applicable. I do not lie. If you take umbrage with the numbers, point them out and tell me how to interpret them differently. What you consider meaningful does not make it so, nor does it mean the HOF voters see it that way either.

I corrected my prior post as to Rolen’s top ten finishes, rather than deferring to an article I had quoted. I acknowledged that I have looked at the numbers more closely. I stated that Rolen made some such categories on occasion, but did not perform any better than Graig Nettles, who few here believe belongs in the HOF. As for others, again, I apparently don’t give them the same weight as “meaningful” as you do. That does not make me a liar. But, while looking at these, I see I missed one, Rolen did finish in the top ten in slugging percentage–once. He also once finished seventh in OBP+ if that’s important, but so did Nettles. What else is important or meaningful?

I already pointed out that Rolen finished behind Nettles in both offensive and defensive WAR. As for the “many more” significant categories, Rolen did finish in the top 10 in defensive range at 3b 10 times , if you think that is important– but Nettles did so 11 times. Double plays turned by a 3b? Rolen had 5 top ten finishes, Nettles had 10. Total zone runs at 3b–Rolen with 10, Nettles 9. Putouts at 3b–Rolen 6, Nettles 12. Assists? Rolen with 8, Nettles 12. Fielding % as 3bman? Rolen 9 top tens, Nettles 12. And so on.

So yes, in the more traditional offensive categories and I as I noted in my last post, Rolen did in fact make the top 10 in a few, one time, and a couple of them twice. Wow, hat’s off. As for the defensive numbers, he made it many times, but was outshined by Nettles in nearly all of them, which makes for a decent argument that they are not all that important to the HOF when a guy with such credentials and similar if not better offensive numbers gets kicked to the curb with single digit vote percentages.
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  #203  
Old 01-26-2023, 07:07 PM
etsmith etsmith is offline
edward
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Johan looks good partly because his career was so short, he never reached the point where his career began to decline and lower his numbers. On top of that, Johan Santana would have been a Hall of Famer had his career been a bit longer. In fact I'm not sure Johan Santana shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame even as it is under what should be called the Koufax Rule.
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  #204  
Old 01-26-2023, 07:51 PM
tod41 tod41 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
The digs against Rolen don't really add up so it's not surprising no one wants to challenge each one on an individual basis. It is very easy to understand why Rolen was elected to the HOF. He is ranked as the 10th best third baseman of all time.

The other names mentioned:

Bobby Abreu - 21st best right fielder
Jim Edmonds - 15th best centerfielder
David Wright - 26th best third baseman

Whatever stat or single season you point to, nothing changes Rolen's status amongst his position and he was a better player at his position than David Wirght, Bobby Abreu or Jim Edmonds, which probably explains why he's in the HOF and they aren't.
David Wright is not yet eligible. I think that explains him right now.
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  #205  
Old 01-27-2023, 12:16 AM
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RCMcKenzie RCMcKenzie is offline
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I'm okay with Nettles and Ron Cey and Madlock going in. I would put Arod and Bonds and those guys too.
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  #206  
Old 01-27-2023, 04:37 PM
Mike D. Mike D. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim65 View Post
I mentioned Reuschel to show that WAR is not absolute, its just a tool. Having a higher WAR does not make a player better than another player, there are too many other stats to use just 1.
People like to use the example of Reuschel to say WAR isn't a very good stat. He's 35th all-time among SP's in BBR WAR, which does feel high.

I look at the list another way - if I look at the top 35 SP, there's only ONE that stands out as seeming not belonging. I think that shows it's actually a pretty decent stat.

I mean, look at the top 10, 25, 50, 100 WAR list...it's basically a list of the best players ever. Maybe you can nitpick a spot here or there, but you could do that with literally ANY ranking system.

Reuschel was 214-191 with a 3.37 ERA (114 ERA+) in about 3,550 IP. Right behind him on the list is John Smoltz, 213-155 with a 3.33 ERA (125 ERA+) in 3,475 IP).

I don't think Reuschel was better than Smoltz, but considering the quality of the teams on which they played, I can understand why they're ranked similarly (since WAR *is* a counting stat).
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