1967 Topps 6th Series

[Cliff Bowman]

These are the other combos I currently have consisting of three or more cards. I will have to do them one at a time to avoid confusion.

[Cliff Bowman]

The third one.

[Cliff Bowman]

The fourth one.

[Cliff Bowman]

Here is the first one again since this thread flipped to page 2.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Interesting. We now know 3 cards in one of the rows because of Cliff's images - MERRITT/SANTIAGO/PALMER.

For what it's worth:

In Dave's eBay count, Palmer is far and away #1 with 53. Santiago and Merritt are barely in the upper half with 16 and 15 respectively (not accounting for ties).

I checked the PSA Pop Report, and Palmer leads the pack with more than 1300 for clear reasons. Merritt is in the upper 1/4 with 307, and Santiago is in the lower half with 239.

I did a quick check of COMC, and all 3 are in the upper third with between 8 and 15 of each.

For the most part, the other pairs Cliff posted are all fairly close in counts on the eBay list.

I'm re-running the survey, something was not right with eBay on 6/9 and I'm getting vastly different results today. Will post when complete.

[Cliff Bowman]

I found three new ones to add, 471 Rene Lachemann is to the left of 516 Giants Team card (only two cards in Series 6 have a five year stat line, Lachemann and Fritz Peterson, the lines match up with Lachemann), 532 Jim Hicks is to the left of 517 Fred Talbot (six cards in the Series have a 12 year stat line, the lines match up with Hicks and not the other five), and 458 Lee Thomas is to the right of 525 Ron Hunt (I matched the out of register photo on the right edge of the Ron Hunt card to the left edge of a Lee Thomas card).

[G1911]

Nice work on Lachemann. I’m digging and trying to find some more that might help.

Every series of Topps cards still unknown should be doable to map via this method and some patience.

[Kevvyg1026]

I suppose you are right. However, Cliff & I have been working for over a year on 1966 Series 5 and there are 4-5 card placements yet to be identified and this is with a bunch of uncut and miscut material available.

For 1966 series 3, a supposedly easy series because there are no SPs, we still have several cards that require adjacent cards to be located. And both the 7th series from 1969 and the 6th series from 1965 are proving extremely problematic to reconstruct because there is so little uncut or miscut material.

[toppcat]

Here's a corrected card count from yesterday off eBay. No idea what was going on there last week but the results were completely off. This may be more helpful: H=HOF, C=Cardinals, R=Red Sox, Y=Yankees. At a guess, one row may be "super printed". 76 subjects plus a 6th series checklist (not counted) on there.

CARD COUNT PLAYER DES
475 195 PALMER H
464 106 COOMBS
496 105 McFARLANE
503 101 DODGERS TEAM
494 94 RIGNEY
500 92 MARICHAL H
480 91 McCOVEY H
532 91 HICKS
504 89 MARTINEZ
476 84 PEREZ H
459 80 SENATORS ROOKIES
483 80 LANDIS
491 72 BOWENS
510 70 MAZEROSKI H
511 70 WERT
519 61 DAVIDSON
499 60 INDIANS ROOKIES
517 60 TALBOT Y
527 60 RIBANT
525 58 HUNT
530 57 F. ALOU
458 55 THOMAS
524 54 MANTILLA
523 52 MERRITT
533 52 FISHER
460 50 KILLEBREW H
518 50 MENKE
520 48 ALVIS
479 46 BELL
509 45 KING
526 43 TIGERS ROOKIES
507 42 ORIOLES ROOKIES
487 41 REYNOLDS
465 39 HORTON
506 39 BURGESS
469 38 GABRIELSON
528 38 PETROCELLI R
521 37 BIRD BOMBERS
473 36 SANTIAGO R
485 34 McCARVER C
501 34 ZIMMERMAN
516 34 GIANTS TEAM
513 31 LOPEZ
466 30 WINE
512 30 SCHOENDIENST C H
514 30 WERHAS
515 30 CAMPANERIS
492 29 PIRATES TEAM
498 29 DIERKER
531 28 7TH CHECKLIST
463 27 HILL ACES
467 26 O'TOOLE
481 26 DUROCHER H
495 26 PETERSON Y
529 26 WAGNER
470 25 SHAW
482 25 MONBOUQUETTE
505 25 HELMS
461 24 MILLER
474 24 TOLAN C
493 24 ORTEGA
502 24 GRIFFITH
484 23 ADAIR
508 23 HALL
462 22 BARTON
468 22 HOUK Y
472 22 PIRATES ROOKIES
477 22 BRAVES TEAM
497 22 CAMPBELL
471 21 LACHEMANN
478 21 HUMPHREYS
489 19 CLEMENS
490 18 CLONINGER
522 17 STEPHENSON
488 16 ARRIGO
486 15 TWINS ROOKIES
TOTAL 3,505

AVERAGE 46

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Interesting. We now know 3 cards in one of the rows because of Cliff's images - MERRITT/SANTIAGO/PALMER.

For what it's worth:

In Dave's eBay count, Palmer is far and away #1 with 53. Santiago and Merritt are barely in the upper half with 16 and 15 respectively (not accounting for ties).

I checked the PSA Pop Report, and Palmer leads the pack with more than 1300 for clear reasons. Merritt is in the upper 1/4 with 307, and Santiago is in the lower half with 239.

I did a quick check of COMC, and all 3 are in the upper third with between 8 and 15 of each.

For the most part, the other pairs Cliff posted are all fairly close in counts on the eBay list.

I had to update the list, the 6/9 count on eBay was not correct. I used the same search term yesterday and got 3.5x more hits overall. The difference is drastic for some cards.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by toppcat

CARD COUNT PLAYER DES
475 195 PALMER H
464 106 COOMBS
496 105 McFARLANE
503 101 DODGERS TEAM
494 94 RIGNEY
500 92 MARICHAL H
480 91 McCOVEY H
532 91 HICKS
504 89 MARTINEZ
476 84 PEREZ H
459 80 SENATORS ROOKIES
483 80 LANDIS
491 72 BOWENS
510 70 MAZEROSKI H
511 70 WERT
519 61 DAVIDSON
499 60 INDIANS ROOKIES
517 60 TALBOT Y
527 60 RIBANT
525 58 HUNT
530 57 F. ALOU
458 55 THOMAS
524 54 MANTILLA
523 52 MERRITT
533 52 FISHER
460 50 KILLEBREW H
518 50 MENKE
520 48 ALVIS
479 46 BELL
509 45 KING
526 43 TIGERS ROOKIES
507 42 ORIOLES ROOKIES
487 41 REYNOLDS
465 39 HORTON
506 39 BURGESS
469 38 GABRIELSON
528 38 PETROCELLI R
521 37 BIRD BOMBERS
473 36 SANTIAGO R
485 34 McCARVER C
501 34 ZIMMERMAN
516 34 GIANTS TEAM
513 31 LOPEZ
466 30 WINE
512 30 SCHOENDIENST C H
514 30 WERHAS
515 30 CAMPANERIS
492 29 PIRATES TEAM
498 29 DIERKER
531 28 7TH CHECKLIST
463 27 HILL ACES
467 26 O'TOOLE
481 26 DUROCHER H
495 26 PETERSON Y
529 26 WAGNER
470 25 SHAW
482 25 MONBOUQUETTE
505 25 HELMS
461 24 MILLER
474 24 TOLAN C
493 24 ORTEGA
502 24 GRIFFITH
484 23 ADAIR
508 23 HALL
462 22 BARTON
468 22 HOUK Y
472 22 PIRATES ROOKIES
477 22 BRAVES TEAM
497 22 CAMPBELL
471 21 LACHEMANN
478 21 HUMPHREYS
489 19 CLEMENS
490 18 CLONINGER
522 17 STEPHENSON
488 16 ARRIGO
486 15 TWINS ROOKIES
TOTAL 3,505

AVERAGE 46

Palmer is far and away the most numerous card in the Series but the two cards next to it in the same row are Merritt and Santiago, Merritt is roughly in the DP 4x range but Santiago is almost in the SP 3x range, going by quantities.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

Palmer is far and away the most numerous card in the Series but the two cards next to it in the same row are Merritt and Santiago, Merritt is roughly in the DP 4x range but Santiago is almost in the SP 3x range, going by quantities.

As noted, a few days ago PSA pops were 307 for Merritt and 239 for Santiago. There must be some other factor at work, such as centering or sheet position in general that plays out in this as the ratio is pretty similar; maybe the fuglier Santiago's, as an example, don't get listed as they are really bad.

It seems like the Coombs and Rigney should be in a "super print" row, while Palmer as a HOF skews some numbers in the Merritt/Santiago row but that Palmer is really popular to grade for some reason and I don't think there is a true super-print row in the semi's based on the numbers I show below. I still suspect the 67 highs had a production issue that really changed the planned row counts (which ended up issued as: 1x5, 1x4, 3x5) but the semi's were not similarly affected.

If you take the HOF'ers out for a minute, the top 11 counts are (with eBay to the left, PSA pops to the right):

Coombs 106 - 199
McFarlane 105 - 295
Dodgers Team 101 - 523
Rigney 94 - 230
Hicks 91 - 245
Martinez 89 - 276
Senators Rookies 80 - 260
Landis 80 - 303
Bowens 72 - 259
Wert 70 - 253
Davidson 61 - 237

The Dodgers Team probably skews due to Koufax being in the team picture. But Hicks (91) is in a row with Menke (60) and Talbot (50), whose PSA pops are: 245, 253 and 279 respectively. That is a major eBay disparity on Hicks, like Palmer's. Maybe there's commons that are so lowly literally nobody buys them?

Conversely, the bottom 11 counts are:

Twins Rookies 15 - 235
Arrigo 16 - 227
Stephenson 17 - 265
Cloninger 18-235
Clemens 19 - 227
Humphreys 21 - 225
Lachemann 21 - 194
Campbell 22 - 194
Braves Team 22 -251
Pirates Rookies 22 - 196
Houk 22-317


33 x 4 and 44 x 3 is probably the row setup for the semi's then.

[JollyElm]

590. Slit-Talker
Someone who is well-schooled in the ways that vintage card print sheets were organized, laid out with SP’s and DP’s, and ultimately cut.

See also: Chompromised - cards that due to the detrimental positions they occupied on the print sheets, are much more susceptible to being found very off-centered, short side-to-side, or generally miscut due to the sheet cutting proces

[toppcat]

Who among us has not chompromised a slit?!

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

Here is the first one again since this thread flipped to page 2.

So here's where I get confused - once we know a card to the right or left of another card, it's set in stone...no matter where the row is or how many times it appears on either slit, it's the same arrangement.

With the arrangement of multiple rows, which we know differs from slit to slit, can we be certain that, in this case, Menke was ever under Wagner and over Coombs on the same slit? It could have been, but all we know for sure is that at least on one slit he was under Wagner, and at least on one he was over Coombs, no?

Know what I mean?

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

So here's where I get confused - once we know a card to the right or left of another card, it's set in stone...no matter where the row is or how many times it appears on either slit, it's the same arrangement.

With the arrangement of multiple rows, which we know differs from slit to slit, can we be certain that, in this case, Menke was ever under Wagner and over Coombs on the same slit? It could have been, but all we know for sure is that at least on one slit he was under Wagner, and at least on one he was over Coombs, no?

Know what I mean?

You’re right, 77 card Series have rows in different spots and a couple will have different rows above or below them. I have found two different cards above Checklists in this Series, Dennis Ribant and Ron Campbell, KevvyG1026 and I have come to the conclusion that both are above the Marichal 6th Series card and are both on the right edge. That means two different rows are above the row with the Marichal 6th Series Checklist over the two Slits. 88 and 66 card Series are very simple, 77 and 110 card Series are more complicated with some rows in different places.

[G1911]

To establish the 11 card rows, we need pretty much every card miscut.

To establish the vertical order of the rows on top of each other, if we know the 11 card rows, we only need a few miscuts to show which rows appeared over which other rows, because the rows never change, even though it won't be the same on both half sheets.

We'll probably never know which half sheet is which without a sheet discovery, but this should be doable like the 66 highs with enough patience.

Unfortunately this series appears to have been well-cut by Topps standards. I am striking out finding more. I have not been able to turn up even a 2 card panel from this series digging through auction archives. I sent this link to the Topps collectors I know who don't post online and got nothing there either. Still digging...

It would be really cool to be able to correctly ID the relative print quantities of every vintage Topps card eventually.

[Cliff Bowman]

Here are the two cards known in the Series to be above a Checklist, the Ribant is no doubt above the Marichal 6th Series Checklist and the Campbell appears to also be above the Marichal 6th Series Checklist.

[Gorditadogg]

Mark, this is all I have for you. I have had these since '67, so I could have pulled these two from the same pack. I checked all my backs but they are no help.

497 Campbell
523 Merritt

[Cliff Bowman]

This is the last one I have until new miscuts show up, the card beside Ron Campbell has only one line around the career stat line, Ortega is the only card in the Series missing one of the two lines around the career stat line.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Mark, this is all I have for you. I have had these since '67, so I could have pulled these two from the same pack. I checked all my backs but they are no help.

497 Campbell
523 Merritt

Hmmm, if there wasn't a back miscut with proof that Santiago is to the right of Merritt I would have taken these as proof Campbell is to the right of Merritt. Apparently the Merritt and the Campbell were cut from the same exact sheet and were cut identically but are not side by side on the sheet. I think the Campbell miscut does proves that it is on the right edge of a SP row.

[Cliff Bowman]

Kevvyg1026 found this one, a Menke miscut with a 12 year stat line card to his left. There are five cards with 12 year stat lines left after Hicks is eliminated, Wine, McCarver, and McFarlane don't work because the lines don't match up, Clemens is eliminated because he is in a SP row, so it is Jack Fisher who is a perfect match. That means these two blocks can be connected, and Kevvyg1026 also figured out that Miller, Bird Bombers, and Gary Bell are leading header cards in those rows because there are wavy edge cuts found on the left side of all three cards.

[Cliff Bowman]

Kevvyg1026 and I have figured out the lead cards (headers) for each of the seven rows in the 1967 6th Series, in other words the first card in each row. They are Bob Miller, Bird Bombers, Gary Bell, 7th Series Checklist, Tony Perez, Pirates Rookie Stars (Gelnar-Spriggs), Felix Mantilla. That is #472 Pirates Rookie Stars under Perez in the miscut and the name of Tony Perez is barely visible in the miscut of the #531 Checklist. As far as the exact order and which four rows are SP's (3x) and which three rows are DP's (4x) is still to be determined.

[Cliff Bowman]

Kevvy1026 and I have figured out four of the seven right edge cards of the 1967 6th Series, in other words the last card on each row. The first miscut proves Jim Palmer is a right edge card, the other Palmer miscut barely has DENNIS from Dennis Ribant visible. The four known right edge cards are Jim Palmer, Dennis Ribant, Ron Campbell, 6th Series Checklist (Marichal), the other three are still to be determined.

[toppcat]

Good stuff!

I ran the 67 highs through the PSA pop database and got an interesting result. At one point it seemed like the series had a 5x row, a 4x row with the other five being 3x but I'm about 90% certain it's just the same 4x3,3x4 array as the semi's, although the Pinson row does seem a bit high in overall pops vs the others.

I'm working on a blog post about it but thought I'd mention it here. I'm thinking eBay pops are not robust enough to use for most series in the standard card size era.

[G1911]

Personally, I would not use eBay pops. The quantity of cards currently sitting unsold doesn’t mean a whole lot and tends to be all over the map. PSA pops of commons tend to be much closer to reality. I’ve had much better luck predicting SP’s there.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by G1911

Personally, I would not use eBay pops. The quantity of cards currently sitting unsold doesn’t mean a whole lot and tends to be all over the map. PSA pops of commons tend to be much closer to reality. I’ve had much better luck predicting SP’s there.

After these latest forays, I would agree.

[Kevvyg1026]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

488 Gerry Arrigo is to the right of 481 Leo Durocher, definitely a SP row.

Tribe aces below Durocher

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Tribe aces below Durocher

Nice find.

[Cliff Bowman]

I found a better example of the Braves Team card under McCovey, I wasn't 100% sure on the first one.

[Cliff Bowman]

The 1967 Topps Tony Perez might be a 3x (SP) after all, The only two cards in the 1967 6th Series I have run across with a red line (sheet cutting guide?) are Perez and Doug Clemens and they sure seem to fit side by side, but it certainly isn't confirmed.

[Kevvyg1026]

Here is a MC showing Landis is at top of one of the slits.

1967_483_top.jpg

[Kevvyg1026]

A couple more miscuts.

Thomas is next to Marichal and Marichal abuts Merritt.

That gives a horizontal string of 525/458/500/523/473/475 in Column 6 thru C11 of one row.

1967_500.jpg

1967_458.jpg

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

A couple more miscuts.

Thomas is next to Marichal and Marichal abuts Merritt.

That gives a horizontal string of 525/458/500/523/473/475 in Column 6 thru C11 of one row.

Attachment 522725

Attachment 522726

Fantastic! I have a hunch that card run connects into the Bird Bombers/Fisher/Menke/Hicks/Talbot card run for a complete 11 card row, but we will need to find proof to confirm it.

[bb66]

Great work!!!

[bxb]

Petrocelli on top of Horton:

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1656795227

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by bxb

Petrocelli on top of Horton:

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1656795227

Progress!

[Cliff Bowman]

I forgot I had this miscut, Santiago is above a Manager card, a Rookie Stars card, or a multi player card at some point on the two Slits.

[Elberson]

Loving the detective work…..found one for you

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Elberson

Loving the detective work…..found one for you

That confirms Gary Wagner to the right of Fritz Peterson on the Bob Miller row, we need more of these severe miscut backs to show up that were prevalent in this Series.

[Elberson]

Found another 458 lee Thomas……I did a google search of who had a 2.23 era in 1966 and it came up Juan Marichal # 500

*******just noticed it was posted earlier**********sorry

[Cliff Bowman]

Bird Bombers is on the top row of one of the Slits which isn't surprising, the row it's on is at least a 4x Row.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by bxb

Petrocelli on top of Horton:

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1656795227

I forgot that Dick Hall is to the left of Rico Petrocelli so we have this combination somewhere on the two Slits.

[deweyinthehall]

Here's a link to a post I made on the B/S/T thread - looking for one version of the 7th series checklist. Dean's has it at a good price but it's way too o/c and angled for even my usually liberal standards. Figure with all the chatter on this topic someone may have an extra....thanks!

https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=322542

[Cliff Bowman]

These back miscuts are the only way this Series might ever be figured out, John Werhas is to the right of Ralph Houk on a probable 3x Row.

[Cliff Bowman]

I found a miscut 67 Bill Rigney that after investigating came up with Don Wert to Rigney's right, but I bought the Rigney miscut and a cheap Wert to place side by side to confirm and it's a perfect fit.

[Cliff Bowman]

This is the latest partial sheet with Wert placed to the right of Rigney.

[Cliff Bowman]

Willie McCovey is to the right of Don Wert which means McCovey is a 4x and that McCovey and the Braves Team card are both in the 6 slot of their respective rows, the Braves Team card is directly under McCovey.

[Cliff Bowman]

Bobby Wine is to the right of the Brooks Robinson Checklist, so the Brooks Robinson Checklist and Bobby Wine are the first two cards of a 3x row above the Tony Perez row.

[Cliff Bowman]

Here's a better example of Tony Perez being under the Brooks Robinson Checklist. As of now I believe Tony Perez and the Brooks Robinson Checklist are both lead cards of 3x rows.