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#1
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Chris
I would like the board's opinions on listing graded cards SGC or PSA and not disclosing what seems to be an ovious trim job. There was a somewhat unclear scan and as with lots of graded listings it said no returns on graded cards. My questions is, if I as your customer and am not happy with the card and maybe more importantly you as the seller thought the card was trimmed, should you first mention it in the listing and secondly offer a refund? What responsibility do you all think the seller has in listing? I am the last one to claim to be the most knowledgeable person in telling trimmed cards, but this card has part of the name cut off, does not fit into the holder(lots of free room) and when put on top of another slab from thge same company and set, it seems very short, as well as appearing to slope. I'm interested in your thoughts. |
#2
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Bryan
I always give refunds for every card I sell on Ebay. I understand that if someone buys a card and in return doesn't like for any reason then they should get their money back if they wish. I do this because I know that I would like to be treated that way. I think graded cards are the easiest to get refunded - just as long as the same card is in the holder. Just my opinion. |
#3
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: petecld
Sure the card isn't just mis-cut and not trimmed? |
#4
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: bcornell
No returns on graded cards sounds okay, but what if you had won the atrocity below in the last Superior auction? Sellers have to take some responsibility. |
#5
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: leon
I don't offer refunds on ebay unless I make a material mistake. I truly believe that auction formats shouldn't have to have refunds. I do state it in my auctions so if someone isn't comfortable with the large scans or description then I guess I lose a potential customer. If I was selling completely retail I would probably offer a refund time frame..... So far I have never had an issue ( knock on wood ).....later |
#6
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: hankron
that, as a picky bidder who actually looks to see what are the sellers' guarantees, your return policy (returnable if you make a material mistake) sounds like a good one to me. |
#7
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Chris
Let me first say the scan was not a large clear one but I am certain the scan was not intentional with the seller as all the others look the same. Not the worse scan I have seen but not the best and it was difficult to see the name clearly. I am pretty sure it is trimmed because as I said half the name is cut off but the biggest thing is the 1/4 inch gap in the slab and it really does look sloped. The card was graded VG/EX so if it was possibly miscut, and I don't think it is, the grade is way off. I am sorry for not posting a scan or a link to the card but I got it from a fellow board member and out of respect to him I am giving him a chance to do what I feel is the right thing. I just felt this was a good topic to discuss. I know when I first started lurking on here there was a quite heated discussion between a couple of people( I don't remember who) about this very same thing. I tried to find that but couldn't. I personally would offer a full refund including shipping to a buyer if they were not happy for any reason. I would rather not take the chance of them being unhappy. Remember, there are those who complain to you and give you the cahnce to fix it, and there are those who just never buy from you again. I also do not feel like I am not without fault here as I guess I should have asked questions but I just don't want to email every seller about a cards condition. |
#8
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: petecld
EXACTLY, the way I see it you proved my point. I guess it all depends on if you see the glass half full or half empty. Before spending the type of money to win a card like that BUYERS need to educate THEMSELVES and not count on a grading company or auction house - both will have financial concerns - for descriptions. |
#9
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Lee Behrens
Everything has been worked out. |
#10
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: hankron
I don't buy or sell graded stuff, and understand that that offers a different dimension and issues than I personal encounter. |
#11
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: scott brockelman
the card is not trimmed. a scan of the card intitially would have been a help. as they say a picture is worth a thousand words. |
#12
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: scott brockelman
the card is not trimmed. a scan of the card intitially would have been a help. as they say a picture is worth a thousand words. |
#13
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Chris
The seller has requested I post the auction on here so I am doing that. Along with my issues as well as a better scan of the card(I hope better anyway. |
#14
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: petecld
Lee, |
#15
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Chris
If not trimmed how do you explain what appears to be the very large difference in the size of the other one I compared it to by placing it on top? The difference was quite dramatic. |
#16
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: leon
You guys know more than I but I don't think it's trimmed either.....obvious miscut to me....never seen a straight trim job with nice, vintage aged corners, and half the name missing....It wouldn't make any sense...and I have that E104 that is badly miscut that SGC wouldn't holder..though, in essence, they said it wasn't trimmed by saying it was miscut (and very much at that)...later |
#17
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Lee Behrens
I trust the opinion of SGC and have a few trimmed and miscut cards returned from them. I got an upgrade so I sold this one. I will be putting the card up on ebay as soon as I received it. |
#18
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Chris
But if you are going to say in your description, I don't assign a grade but try to decribe it the best I can. Shouldn't you do just that and mention the miscut? Did you honestly feel you were describing the condition the best that you could? Had there ben no description, I may have very well passed on it but felt ok with the way you had it worded. |
#19
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Chris
If not trimmed, why is there such a large gap in the holder and why when stacking this card on top of another T206 graded by SGC can you see such a large part of the other card? Doesn't the difference in size seem dramatic to anyone else? |
#20
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)
My guess is that Lee's once and future card is miscut |
#21
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: petecld
Personally, I think the card is trimmed. If it was just a mis-cut the top border whould be much wider than it is. Can a card be that o/c AND short AND not trimmed.....I doubt it. |
#22
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Elliot
FWIW, I don't think the card is trimmed. The scan is small and Lee probably should have had a supersize option, but even with the small scan it was obvious that the card was miscut. I think that's probably why the card went for as little as it did, with only 3 bids. Burns usually goes for slightly more than a common, I would expect a "normal 4" would go for $45. Lee was clear in his listing that there was no returns on graded cards, but at the end of the day, it's probably correct to make sure the customer is happy, and Lee and Chris worked out a suitable return that both could live with. |
#23
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Brian Weisner
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#24
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: T206Collector
First, the size of the SGC insert is irrelevant to the actual size of the card. SGC modifies its insert for each card. In this case, they made a bad insert. I have returned cards to them that were not holdered well, and they have fixed them free of charge. The size of the insert changes each time. |
#25
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Chris
For those who think the card is not trimmed, and I respect your opinion, what do you base it on? For those that think it isn't, WHY is the card so much shorter? We're not talking about a small difference. We are talking much shorter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it is miscut, shouldn't the card still basically be the same size? I actually brought this up in my very first post on here. How do you tell if a card is trimmed? It is obviously short and the bottom looks to slope to me. Pete and I have given our reasons for thinking it is. What are the reasons it may not be? I will say this, I definately have learned some things with this incident. More and more you learn to buy the card and not the holder. I learned that although I could not see the cut at the bottom of the card, had I looked a little more carefully I would have noticed the gap in the holder. I like Pete, just don't see how a card so short can not be trimmed. I am happy that Lee and I were able to work things out as that I still think is the most important thing. If the person you sell something to isn't happy, shouldn't you try to make him or her happy as long as they are not asking for the moon? Or is the sale that important that people that don't offer returns just don't care if you lose a potential customer? Is it better to refund $ on a card or just tell the customer, no returns, deal with it and make sure that person never buys from you again. Beyond never buying from you again, they tell people. I guess I am just a little surprised at the number of people who don't offer returns. Just seems like bad business to me. I personally think if the card was listed with a nice quality scan and a description that mentioned it as miscut it would sell for less. I can't be sure though. It might sell for more. Who knows. |
#26
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Chris
Thanks for the info on why you think it is not trimmed. That is what I am looking for. Just happy we worked it out and hope the future owner will be verry happy with their purchase. We need more people in the hobby that are happy with their purchases. It makes for a little less paranoia and a stronger hobby. Most importantly thanks to Lee for satisfying my concerns. It is appreciated. |
#27
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Aaron M.
Lee: |
#28
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Cy
My comments here are not aimed at Lee's sale but in the sale of graded cards in general. I have dealt with Lee on both ends of a sale and have found him to be quite honorable. I have a problem with any seller not standing behind a graded card. And the number of sellers who are doing this has been rampantly increasing. |
#29
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Chris
You don't even have a clue what you are talking about. I told Lee in a private email that I did not mention his name and WOULD not mention his name and if you look at my second post I stated that. My intentions were not blackmail or shame. |
#30
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Chris
At least CY thinks it is a topic of discussion. Really Aaron, no blackmail or shame was intended. If anything, I thought Lee and I were both board members and we could work this out between us with no hard feelings, and we did. I agree with CY, I think people should be able to return graded cards because almost all of us say to buy the card not the holder. So are you buying the card and not the holder but selling the holder and not the card? Does that change when you become a seller? |
#31
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Chris
Also the blurry mess you expected because I said the scan was somewhat unclear is way off. I even made a point to say I did not think his bad scan was intentional. How is that describing it as a blurry mess? Maybe my eyes are not what they used to be but I don't think it is a clear scan but as I stated in the second post, not Lee's fault or intentions. I think it best not to accuse me of blackmail because you really don't know me or have all the facts. |
#32
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: MW
The T206 in question does not appear to be trimmed, just undersized. As Brian Weisner correctly indicated, this is not an uncommon feature when one is perusing larger groups of T206s. |
#33
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Brian Weisner
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#34
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Aaron M.
"I told Lee in a private email that I did not mention his name and WOULD not mention his name..." |
#35
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Chris
Call it petty if you want but I don't think a seller should make money off of me with insurance when the package was never insured. I am paying his seller fees, paying his shipping fees, but I do not think I should give him money for insurance when it was not insured just so he can pocket that $. If that is wrong on my part I will be wrong forever. Before you start putting words in my mouth, my points were clear on the subject and can be read. If there is no clear scan and the description says I just try to give the best description possible, I think the seller should mention the miscut and actually give the best description possible. My opinion. There will be some that agree and some that disagree. How can I embarrass Lee when I wasn't even going to use his name? I didn't even mention the card until he told me it was ok because I didn't want anyone looking on Ebay to see it was him. I tried to make my points in regard to the post. I do feel sellers should stand behind their cards and slabs to if they are selling the slab and not the card. I think I made it clear it was not the sellers intention to post a bad scan. |
#36
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Judge Dred
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#37
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Kenny Cole
Put me in the "not trimmed" but miscut group. |
#38
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Aaron M.
"If that is wrong on my part I will be wrong forever." |
#39
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Chris
Will you get over it. I posted this before I emailed Lee, as stated to open discussion on seeler responsibility. I did not start this thread BECAUSE OF THE INSURANCE. Get your facts straight before you blabber blabber blabber. I didn't threaten Lee with a post. I posted first. I emailed Lee and Lee and I agreed on a refund. You say there is clearly nothing wrong with the scan yet Lee in his own post says the scan is small. The insurance was not what led me to start the thread. If you like I will forward the emails to you and you can look at the time stamps. I accept that others feel it is not trimmed. Good enough for me. After people posted their reasons I did not make that argument. All I wanted was reasons. My original post BEFORE I emailed Lee was started because I do feel like sellers should stand behind their cards. Just take care of the customer. Happy customers spend more $. You make alot of assumptions before you get your facts straight. Seriously if you read all the posts your statements are ridicules and filled with assumptions because you don't have the facts. Until I hear Lee has no beef with me I consider Lee and I to be ok. Should Lee say he has a beef with me I prefer to call the guy and speak to him man to man to work out any differences. I am tired of defending myself to someone who doesn't have the facts and thinks I started this thread after Lee offered a refund or after I emailed him or any of that crap. I started it because I felt it was a worthey discussion. If Lee and I are ok what the heck is your problem? |
#40
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Chris
One Final note: The facts: Lee did not have to offer a refund. He was nice enough to do so for a fellow net54 member. I thanked him for that and Lee will be out nothing for this. I'm paying all his fees because as stated in one of my first two posts, I do accept some responsibilty on this. Go back and check the POSTS! Lee, if we are still not ok, you have my email address, just email me for my phone number. I would be more than happy to speak with you. If we are ok and you still want to speak on the phone just to better acquaint ourselves, that would be great too. I think it would be great. Was I completely happy with the description? No. I'm over it and I believe Lee is over it. The only one that doesn't seem over it is Aaron and his misguided facts. |
#41
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: John
I have some input on this. I have been collecting T206’s a long time some are smaller than others sorry to say it but its true. I also have some with the name cut a little bit even some with two names. This is an obvious miscut nothing more nothing less. In this situation I suggest you do what most collectors do keep it or upgrade to a better version, or the new trend list it on ebay as a rare printers error. But I really don’t feel it’s trimmed. And if you feel strongly that it is in fact trimmed bring this up with SGC not the seller. If you collect T206’s your bound to get some miscuts. |
#42
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Aaron M.
Now, Chris, I'm willing to overlook the fact that you avoided answering or even commenting on any of the many issues I raised, but I must take exception with your assertion that you posted here prior to Lee offering a refund. |
#43
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Lee Behrens
Chris, I do have a few thinks to clear up with you and everyone else on the board. |
#44
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Lee Behrens
Chris, I am really dissapointed in how you handled this whole matter from the start to the straw breaker, your snide remark in the Clean Sweep thread. You did exactly what you wanted from the get go giving you a refund. AAron has stated this whole thing quite well. You are worried about a couple dollars after I offered you a refund, telling me how I should do thinks. you have attacked me and my auctions and impying that I tried selling the card purposely because I knew it was trimmed. |
#45
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Chris
Lee I did not post in the Clean Sweep post. I always log in as vintagechris. It is another cHris posting there. |
#46
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Chris
There is a least one other Chris that posts here and that is why I always log in under vintagechris. |
#47
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Chris
Lee, I guess I thought you self insure because I paid for insurance and when the package arrived it only had delivery confirmation on it which is how you said you would do your deliveries if you self insured. |
#48
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Chris
Lee did respond to my email immediately and offered the refund. Which is when I countered with I didn't feel I should have to pay for the insurance when he didn't insure it. Petty, maybe. I told Lee in that very same email I had already posted on Net54 a thread but did not and would not mention his name. Lee again almost immediately responded that he was ok with that but was disappointed that the auction said no returns. I have these emails for you Aaron. There was never a threat to post anything to strong arm Lee into a refund. Your post are so jumbled with false statements iit is difficult to make out your points. Lee I apologize if I went overboard with my post and I do not post that comment in the Clean Sweep post as I always post under vintagechris. But Aaron your witch hunt is a little ridicules as well as you continue to say I forced Lee into a refund by threatening a post when I and Lee both have the email time stamped at 2:25 I sent him saying I'm just not happy with the card and don't want any hard feelings on either side as I post on net 54 as well. I actually posted something in regards to seller responsibilty on there after receiving this because I was curious as to what others thought. I however did not mention your name or what the card was nor will I because I felt we could work it out. I just felt it was a topic worth discussing. So this will be my lost post on this topic. I have the emails if anyone wants to see them. Lee has the emails if anyone wants to see them. |
#49
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: Chris
I am reposting this because it somehow disappeared after Chris B. responded. I have decided to keep the Bill Burns card and sell it on Ebay when I am able to upgrade. I will list it as miscut. The fact that Aaron has turned this into a blackmail case is crazy. I told Lee of my post and told him I was not using his name or the card in my posts and to Lee's credit he offered to put the auction on there, so we did. I can see how people felt I was attacking Lee's Ebay listing and for that I apologize. But blackmailing Lee into a refund I was not doing. I feel my posts and the emails Lee and I exchanged support that. I am disappointed that Lee chose not to accept a phone call from me because he thought I posted what he perceived as a snide comment in the Clean Sweep thread. I have always and will always continue to log in and post under vintagechris. Chris B. claimed that post in a reply to this original post and hopefully he will do the same or post it in the Clean Sweep thread. I have had one other transaction that I know of with a fellow board memebr and that was with Reid Bruce. He had posted in the Buy/Sell looking for CJ's and I had one he needed. I gave him a clear scan of both front and back, a detailed description and assigned what I thought was a grade of VG-EX. I even told him most dealers on Ebay would grade it EX but I thought it was VG-EX. I feel he was happy with the transaction but you would have to ask him. My final thoughts on this matter is this, life is too short to try to make enemies. I come here for the knowledge and insights of others, not to get into a war of words and I have always and always will try to work my conflicts out with others in a rational manner. If I go about it the wrong way then I will admit that. I am not above admitting when I am wrong about something. We all get carried away at times on this computer and it is easy to jump to conclusions which is precisely why I offered to call Lee to work out any differences. |
#50
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Ebay Descriptions of graded cards
Posted By: PeterP
"There was a somewhat unclear scan and as with lots of graded listings it said no returns on graded cards." |
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