T206 Johnson psa/dna ended early????

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Posted By: T206Collector

...Of my website if you want. But it is an attempt at sharing all known information about signed pre-war cards. And it is obviously a young website. But do a little research--there is a spate of meaningful displays of historic cards in the world and the web has been and will continue to fill that void. I just want to be a part of preserving and sharing. And it was in that spirit that this transaction got done. The seller asked as part of the sale that he reference my website in the closed listing. It was important for him to know where it was going and that he could share it publicly. Call BS if you want. Heck I can even understand it. But to crap on my website? Why would you want to discourage it? Not very nice, in my opinion.

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Posted By: John

Not dumping on your website Paul don’t read into things, I’m just pointing out what I found to be odd if true. That the sellers primary concern was making sure the card was displayed for all to enjoy etc. I think the sellers primary concern was selling the card hence why he listed it on ebay for sale and brokered a side deal with you.

And if that truly was his concern that his prized possession was to be enjoyed for many years to come, I was only pointing out that there are many other alternatives which ensure this very desire that are arguably better than a collector’s webpage….

Also for a guy with a take no prisoner’s attitude towards collecting, other collectors and auctions, I’m a bit surprised you’re so sensitive. I’m sure there’s a few folks who think ending the auction the way you did was not so nice.

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Posted By: Art M.

Seller listed the same card on Ebay in March 2006. Auction was ended early that time too:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8775253711

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Posted By: T206Collector

I can take the heat from competitive card collectors vying for the same card. I didn't appreciate your comments about my website--I still don't. They were personal in nature. And you can say my feelings are hypocritical given my practice. But my feelings on this one are that your words were hurtful and intended as such. No big deal. I usually agree with what you write.

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Posted By: James Feagin

Paul,

You certainly know how to network and negotiate in a convincing matter and congratulations on the cards. I'm just not thrilled how this went down either. Not that I would have bid on it, but I've always come from the school of thought that a promise is a promise. The seller deserves most of the blame here, but they are called auctions for a reason. And the assertion "I just had to have it beceause it's a once in a lifetime and I will love the card more" just doesn't fly. There were probably other collectors who wanted to to see the auction through who didn't want to do this in an under-handed way. I feel they would have cherished the chance just as much as you. This isn't sour grapes (after all, they're just baseball cards), it's treating people the way you want to be treated. You mentioned how you felt when the shoe had been on the other foot, now you do the same thing?

Merry Christmas and I hope you enjoy the card,

James

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Posted By: John

Paul, I like your site I also like your collection. I just found it odd that this seller was moved to make this deal based on displaying of the item in question. Heck there are a lot of us here with webpages Paul, some with better collections than both of us put together LOL. I have to wonder two things if the auction went ahead as planned any winner could have displayed the card if they wanted too. Also he had obviously never heard of your or your webpage prior to listing the card, so I can’t help but scratch my head as to why this was a concern of his.

I hope you understand where I’m coming from, my intention was not to hurt your feelings, just point out what I found to be an odd avenue and set of circumstances that led to this side deal.

Have a great holiday Paul, and all head scratchers and questions aside enjoy your card.

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Posted By: Joe D.

I would like to elaborate on my 'no wrong done here' stance.


Especially with the word 'hypocritical' brought up.


I think any eBay buyer who feels badly when an auction closes early.... well that is hypocrisy at its best!

Yes - you may feel as though the seller has made a mistake, or that the seller left money on the table - - but to somehow feel that something 'wrong' has been done by the eBay community.... again - hypocrisy.


eBay buyers look for the bargain 24/7. They shun reserves even when reasonable. eBay buyers covet the auction that is placed in the wrong category (hmmmm.... do you point those out to the seller?) 90% of the time or better - eBay is the bargain basement for collectibles.

So - in a marketplace where the 'buyer' is looking for the edge at the expense of the seller - I see no reason to cast blame on a seller who entertains the idea of ending an auction early.


For all who think the seller did wrong. Please start alerting sellers when they have placed an auction in the wrong category that they might get more money with their item in a correct category.

Until then.... I will call it hypocrisy to feel that you were wronged by an auction closing early.

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Posted By: Dave F

Funny many of the people on here getting on Paul for making a deal with the seller would do or have asked to do the same thing on other items. So why is this one any different? Congrats to Paul, the only person that did anything wrong was the seller noting in his auction he wouldnt end it early and everyone would get a chance...Paul didnt hold a gun to the guy's head to make him end it. If anything I may avoid the seller in the future knowing he will do this...or maybe I'll ask him to end something for me

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Posted By: John

Dave, care to elaborate I’ve never asked a seller to end an auction early…I bid in them but sadly many occasions never get to finish them because people end them early with side deals, emails etc.

In fact if I haven’t seen 1 post on here complaining about this practice I’ve seen 50, now it’s ok with everyone??

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Posted By: Doug

Since I probably didn't have a realistic chance of winning the card anyway, I'm glad that it went to a place where I can enjoy looking at it online for free. Not to sound like a suck up or anything, but I do enjoy your website and wanted to congratulate you on your newest addition!

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Posted By: Ed Ivey

ditto what doug said. What an awesome treasure. My uncle, who grew up in DC and was 11 at the time, tells the story of when my granddad came in sadly to his bedroom, awoke him, and told him: "I just thought you'd want to know, the news says Walter Johnson has passed away". It was a shock, even to a child who never saw him play.

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Posted By: Steve

Who gives a rat's ass, really? Paul's only holding it for a while... Ya can't take all this pulp with you. Has anyone ever once seen a hearse pulling a U-Haul?

Besides, I'd be hard pressed to find any of you without a Johnson of your own. I'm lucky to have one, but rest assured, I won't own it forever.

Eureka! Old idea for a new thread.

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Posted By: Brian

Wonka, I was struggling last night with my response. You have basically said everything I was thinking.

Paul, you got a very fine card.

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Posted By: pas

A willing seller and a motivated buyer negotiated a price for a baseball card. End of story.

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Posted By: Joe D.

brevity is wonderful.

You said in one sentence what took me a few paragraphs.

I agree 100%

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Posted By: shane leonard

Paul,
I think the card is an awesome pickup. I don't think you did anything wrong by negotiating outside of eBay. You made him an offer too good to pass and your website probably helped out as well. If there is a card I have to have, you bet I will email the guy directly to let him know I will buy it right now or I am a serious bidder on it.
I appreciate your website and I think it is awesome that you have spent your time informing others like myself on T206s.

Thanks and Merry Christmas,
Shane

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Posted By: James Feagin

This thread has been very telling for me.

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Posted By: John

"A willing seller and a motivated buyer negotiated a price for a baseball card. End of story."

Yeah minus those poor suckers who were bidding or going to bid via snipes, who had the courtesy to let the auction run via the notes on the gentleman’s auction...it was clean transaction...well except for those other people involved.

Correct me if I’m wrong but was this an auction or a sale on the BST???? Why were there negotiations taking place vs. bidding in the first place? Oh that’s right because the other folks who had put there bids in early and were following the auction rules weren’t included in the negotiation process for this card yet alone even aware it was open for negotiation behind close doors.

Yeah seems clean cut to me…..

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Posted By: James Feagin

John,

Game. Set. Match.

Great post,

James

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Posted By: quan

wonka i'm with u in that i've never asked a seller to end an auction early (when there are already bids)...but it's so commonplace these days amd seems to be an accepted practice so what can you do.

most of the responsibility lies with the seller...and in this case if it was me i would "never ever ever x 10^100 end the auction early...unless you put the scans up on a website where I can go view it occasionally..." so I can see where he's coming from also.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Wonka how are you haven't seen you much of late, hope all is well.

From my perspective ebay is just another way to sell a card. I see no problem with the guy ending it early or Paul "privately" neogtiating with him.

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Posted By: James Feagin

Since ebay is getting ripped out of their FV fees, I wonder if they will eventually shut down communications between buyer and seller (other than best offer).

James

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Posted By: Steve D

I don't have a problem with what the buyer did. I do have a problem with what the seller did. As he did state publicly that he wouldn't end it early. Furthermore, I wonder what the tone of this thread would be like had the buyer not been a friend to this board? Would it still be 'Im glad that someone won it'?

Steve D

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Posted By: James Feagin

Steve D,

That is a vary fair point.

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Posted By: John

Peter,

I’m good and you? I hear you and agree with Quan it’s become so second place its hard to impossible to avoid, but I still don’t have to like it and until further notice will trail the high road and bid even if the auctions get canceled early. Guess I’ll take them when I can get them.

But I think Steve is onto something here….

”Who gives a rat's ass, really? Paul's only holding it for a while... Ya can't take all this pulp with you. Has anyone ever once seen a hearse pulling a U-Haul?”

We can let it slide when somebody snags an off ebay deal…we just have to wait until their untimely death….to get an uninterrupted pop at a particular card or a second chance if you will. LOL

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Posted By: Joann

This whole topic is unfortunate because both sides are so completely and totally right.

I think John Wonka hit it right on the nose with his two points above about why people ask to end auctions early. Wanting a steal or being worried about being able to stick out a last-minute fistfight probably account for the vast majority of early ends. But because of these actions, now people are really taking a chance if they decide to let an auction run its course for an unusual item.

So if I were somehow adivising Paul through this process and was going to bear at least some responsibility for his outcome, I don't think I could - in good conscience - tell him to let the auction run its course even though I personally think no auctions should end early. There would be just too high of a chance that someone else would get it ended early, and his chance could be gone forever.

I don't much like it, but the fact is that we have collectively created a situation in which it may not make sense to let an auction run. We did that. Not every person or individual, but the generic "we" of the collecting and dealing community. And the more "we" do it, the more people that disagree with the practice are almost forced to become part of it if they don't want to miss out on a very special card.

Paul did what he all but had to do if he didn't want to run the very real risk of someone else getting it shut down. The fact that he and the seller clearly connected at a level beyond parties to a transaction - as collectors having a good old-fashioned conversation as Fred said - makes it a great story.

Nice card Paul. I'm thrilled that it is in your collection.

Joann

And Wonka - to your point, if this happened in an auction for something that I really, really wanted, I'd be mad as a wet hen and spitting nails about it. So I do see that side of it. But if it were something truly important to me I probably would give strong consideration to trying to get it outside of ebay. There are just no good options or winners here.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

The fact is, ebay got ripped off -- one of the reasons the seller was so happy to sell it offline (of course, he may have left money on the table). And it is wrong to try to both induce a seller to end an auction early and to do so as a seller.

All that being said, 90% of us do it when there is a card we think we must have. To the other 10%: you're right.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

I am sure ebay's fee structure takes into account that this will happen from time to time. I would not worry about ebay.

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Posted By: Steve D

Ebay allows for it.



Steve

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Much ado about nothing....Paul got it. Congrats! Besides James F. he is the only person I know that specifically collects autographed T-206's and I'm glad he got it. But like I said earlier it sounds like he might not have gotten it if his wife hadn't built him his website so she deserves an extra Christmas present this year.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Steve, ebay allows for such a transaction even though it does not get any fees?

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Posted By: John

Joann;

Good and fair points as always.

“So if I were somehow adivising Paul through this process and was going to bear at least some responsibility for his outcome, I don't think I could - in good conscience - tell him to let the auction run its course even though I personally think no auctions should end early. There would be just too high of a chance that someone else would get it ended early, and his chance could be gone forever.”

To me a good analogy would be “well somebody better steal this cash from the cash drawer since it’s already open, after all if I don’t take it someone surely will besides I need the cash anyways.”

While I see exactly where you’re coming from and the double edge sword that lays within, one has to have some respect for the rules/guidelines set in place when it comes to these things if not then it’s a total free for all. Besides one cant always get what one wants when it comes to collecting, and as of late I cant count more cards lost to ebay Pirates raping and pillaging off line deals than cards I have won online. I think we have better choices than if you cant beat them join them. Just my two cents (which was my snipe on the card for the record .02 would I have won?)

Regards,

John

P.S. This seems to be a pretty bold statement being tossed around by folks in this thread.…(not pointing the finger at you Dan) , besides I'm pretty sure I know of at least a few others off the top of my head.

“Besides James F. he is the only person I know that specifically collects autographed T-206's and I'm glad he got it.”

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=170179209433

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Posted By: Steve D

Jeff

Ebay allows for a seller to end an auction early. I believe they give 3 or four reasons.


They also allow for a seller to end an auction early, so an item can be sold to the current high bidder.


So, to answer your question, yes. (Even though the seller is using a loophole to accomplish his goal).

Ebay is also used by sellers and buyers to complete deals outside of the venue for full sets that do not sell during the time an auction runs. Some 1965 sets (at least 3 that I know of) have been known to sell in just that manner.


Steve



edited for typos

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Posted By: Lyle

I am not one to jump into these ethical discussions , but the seller TOTALLY lied when he stated emphatically that he would not end the auction early so he is not a "stand up guy. " . Paul convinced him to bypass his word and purchased his integrity ,shutting everyone else out of the opportunity to buy the card .
Maybe I am TOO honest for my own good , but my conscience would bother me on both ends of this transaction .BTW , no sour grapes here since I would not have bid on the card .

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Wonka, He and James are the only people I know that specifically collect T206 autographed cards. I'm not saying they are the only two people in the world. I am glad for Paul since he is one of the ones I know...And for the record I was one of those who never asked for auctions to end early, but as long as ebay allows for it I am forced to play that game...I have played the game and have not once been able to convince someone to end an item early for me. Perhaps next time I will show them my website!

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Posted By: Joann

John,

I don't think it's quite like the cash drawer because in these cases the seller (leaver-outer of the cash, in your analogy) is willingly participating in the disappearance and believes he is acting in his own best interest. Not sure where the line should go, but I don't think I'd draw it there.

I also really hate that the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality is emerging, but I don't know what else to do or what people should do. If only 20% of all collectors are willing to approach sellers offline no matter what (meaning they are not just piling on because they have to), should those 20% be the only ones to get all cards of sellers willing to shut down auctions? I don't know if it's fair for the 80% to miss out almost by definition.

If I could have the world any way I wanted it, there would be a way to shut down the core minority (the mythical 20% above) from making the offline buys. If that happened, then I think a lot of people would stop on their own, preferring to let auctions run to the end. I just don't know how that would be done.

So I am glad Paul got this card - definitely. But I wish that the environment were such that he could have confidently and comfortably let the auction run, knowing he could have counted on having a shot. Who knows - maybe he would have gotten it for even less money.

Joann

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Posted By: Frank B

>>I also really hate that the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality is emerging, but I don't know
what else to do or what people should do. If only 20% of all collectors are willing to approach sellers
offline no matter what (meaning they are not just piling on because they have to), should those 20% be
the only ones to get all cards of sellers willing to shut down auctions? I don't know if it's fair for
the 80% to miss out almost by definition.<<

Prisoners Dilemna - Sounds like "all's fair in war and cards."

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Posted By: T206Collector

Whenever I see something I like, I always send the same message to the seller: "Please do not end this auction early. If you do decide to end this auction early, please let me make you an offer above which you have already received. Thank you."

I really recommend it, given the current state of ebay and the competition for baseball cards. Sometimes the dealer/seller will give me a price, and sometimes he will tell me to go jump in a lake and sometimes I get ignored. But by doing this, I feel like I am never losing out on a chance to get a card because the seller is working offline with someone else.

You may call this shady business practices, but I frankly think it is what is necessary to get some tough cards these days on ebay. Is it unfortunate it has come to this? Sure. Do I lose sleep over it? No.


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Posted By: Jeff Prillaman

Recently we listed a Rare Tiger Woods golf card. I had a dozen offers within an hour of the auction going live.

We made the decision to let the auction run -- but one of the offers was simply this

"Please look at my bid history and feedback, I am a serious buyer, I will top any offer you have to end this auction early by 10%."

Now of course this buyer was nowhere to be found at the close of the auction -- but at some level his email might have played into my decision to let the auction run.

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Posted By: Joann

There is a huge irony in this business of asking a seller to allow you to make a better offer than whatever they received before closing an auction, whether by X% or just a "better offer".

If the seller says okay to giving an offeror the opportunity to top the otherwise best offer offline, isn't he actually running ... an auction?

Just brings us aaaall full circle.

Joann

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Posted By: T206Collector

....the seller has received such a large amount of hate mail today that he has decided to hold on to the card.

I will not be getting it.

Oh well.

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Posted By: DR

Why you even 'bragged' about the purchase before it arrived is beyond comprehension?

The outcome deserves you right!

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Posted By: Steve D

Geez that sucks, sorry that you are not getting the card now. Do you still feel like this guy is "standup"


Now he reneges on what amounts to a handshake deal with you.

Hie ebay handle does fit.


Steve

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Posted By: Steve D

Oh and btw one thing we all can take from this is not to expose yourself before you get the item in hand.


Steve

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Posted By: Steve

Did they even have ballpoint pens back then?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Paul, that blows. The guy has started and stopped so many of his auctions, though...I can't say I'm surprised.

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Posted By: Steve D

Looks like a fountain pen sig to me.

Steve D

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Talk about taking sour grapes to another level...Geez.

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Posted By: Glen Turner

I have posted a couple of times on this thread.
I am the only one to mention sending cards to PSA/DNA that I got signed in person that they rejected as Authenticity questionable.
Am I the only person in the world that has had this happen to?
Or can PSA do no wrong in everyone's eyes?

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Posted By: T206Collector

I would not have gone public without card in hand, except that a material aspect of this deal was that I would publish it on my website as he ended his auction. Again, he wanted to put the link to my website in his ended listing -- as he did. And then members of this board more or less asked me to weigh in, which I did because I enjoy this community. I don't think I did very much "bragging" at all. Again, I really felt this was in the spirit of sharing that the seller and I wanted to bring forth. You can keep calling it BS if you want, but I won't.

I do still think he is a stand up guy. He forwarded me some of the nasty e-mails he has been getting -- sadly at least one from a guy on this forum -- and they would have made me feel uncomfortable, too. I certainly would not have wanted to get those e-mails on Christmas Eve. And I am pretty surprised people would say such things, but c'est la vie.

I am happy for all the free publicity my website got!








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