1948/49 Leaf Satchel Paige

[samosa4u]

I have a few questions about this card:

1) How do we know for certain that it's a SP? Has anyone ever seen an uncut sheet before?

2) I have a book, that's about twenty years old, and while the author calls the Jackie Robinson and Stan Musial cards rookies, he does not label this Paige card as such. Today, everybody is calling it a rookie. Is this card really a rookie? He was about 42-years-old when it was issued and I'm pretty sure he must have had cards made of his prior to that.

3) I think the image that was used in the making of this card was a poor choice. His eyes are closed! How stupid is that? Are there any other players in this set with their eyes closed?

[Griffins]

1. We've seen an uncut sheet of the common series, this isn't on it. It's considerably scarcer than any of the 49 in the common series.
2. Probably just an oversight. All evidence points to this set being issued in '49, the short print series later than the common series. But it still most probably predates the high number '49 Bowman, his only other card before '53 Topps.
3. More likely he was looking down or blinking. Leaf isn't known for their production value on this set.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Griffins

1. We've seen an uncut sheet of the common series, this isn't on it. It's considerably scarcer than any of the 49 in the common series.
2. Probably just an oversight. All evidence points to this set being issued in '49, the short print series later than the common series. But it still most probably predates the high number '49 Bowman, his only other card before '53 Topps.
3. More likely he was looking down or blinking. Leaf isn't known for their production value on this set.

Anthony is precisely correct. The 1949 LEAF Paige is his first card depicting him with a Major League uniform. The 1949 BOWMAN card of "Satch" was issued in the Fall of 1949.
I can personally vouch for this, as I clearly recall the 1949 BOWMAN Hi #s were available when school had started. We were opening the BOWMAN red-white-blue 5-cent packs
with the Hi# cards in September-October.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[samosa4u]

Thanks for your posts, Ted. It looks like those guys running Leaf Gum Co. were a bunch of sneaky b*stards! Look at the first series uncut sheet: 31, 106, 11, 136, 59, etc. The numbers are all over the place!

It's also crazy that all the cards from the second series are short-prints. And to make things even more confusing, there are some cards from this second series, like the Paige, which are even more difficult to find! What does that make the Paige then, by the way? A SP or a SSP (super short print?) Yes, I just thought of that one right now, but it sounds pretty cool, right?

I was really thinking of the Bowmans, but now I am not sure if I want to do that. The Leafs are going to be more challenging, but at the same time fun. And there are different color variations as well, and I find this part interesting too. It's definitely going to be a tough decision! Send out that article of yours whenever you can, Ted, and I gotta' make sure I research all of this properly so I don't end up with any regrets!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Thanks for your posts, Ted. It looks like those guys running Leaf Gum Co. were a bunch of sneaky.....

It's also crazy that all the cards from the second series are short-prints. And to make things even more confusing, there are some cards from this second series, like the Paige, which are even more difficult to find!s pretty cool, right?

1st....LEAF was not the first Gum Co. to skip-number their cards. GOUDEY, in 1933, played the same game by not printing 22 Lo # cards in their set until the last 2 sheets.

2nd....The 2nd Series (49 cards) was issued sometime in the Summer of 1949. This series of cards were not only Short-Printed, but were also regionally "short-distributed".
That is to say these cards were only issued in the Boston area, Michigan, Ohio, Illinois (and perhaps St Louis).

In 1989, Alan Rosen acquired four boxes (24-count) of LEAF unopened waxpacks. This find was an original collection from Michigan. All 576 cards were 2nd Series subjects.
Forty eight of these subjects averaged about 12 cards each, representing a fairly good random distribution. However there were only 3 cards of Satchell Paige in this group
of 576 cards.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[steve B]

The low numbers are lots of fun, there's at least 3 distinct press runs if not 5-6.
And usually the differences aren't exactly small.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by tedzan

In 1989, Alan Rosen acquired 4 wax-pack boxes (24-count) each.
The cards in this find were all 2nd Series totaling 576. Forty-eight subjects averaged 12 cards each, representing a pretty good random distribution. However there were only
3 cards of Satchell Paige in this group of 576 cards.

I was talking to a big US card dealer over the phone last night and he thinks that these packs were searched. He doesn't think the Paige card is rarer than any of the other cards in the second SP series. He told me whenever he purchased a collection of 49' Leafs from someone, the Paige card was always in there.

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I have a few questions about this card:

1) How do we know for certain that it's a SP? Has anyone ever seen an uncut sheet before?

2) I have a book, that's about twenty years old, and while the author calls the Jackie Robinson and Stan Musial cards rookies, he does not label this Paige card as such. Today, everybody is calling it a rookie. Is this card really a rookie? He was about 42-years-old when it was issued and I'm pretty sure he must have had cards made of his prior to that.

3) I think the image that was used in the making of this card was a poor choice. His eyes are closed! How stupid is that? Are there any other players in this set with their eyes closed?

First--beautiful card (relative to the issue).
Yes, there are sheets that suggest the Paige--along with quite a few others--were printed less frequently. I believe it was Dr. James Beckett that first passed this info along many, many years ago and the hobby has gone with it.

Rookie? I figure it depends on how you define it. As for MLB, he was, indeed, a rookie at age 42. More peculiar is the notion some have of, say, Stan Musial's '48 Bowman as a "rookie". I suppose the sheer lack of cards prior creates the rookie notion for quite a few 40's debuts. There are likely some obscure regional issues that feature Satchel as a Mexican Leaguer or even Negro Leaguer but the Leaf is the first card of him produced on any measurable scale...and he WAS a rookie.

Finally, the image is likely what was available. "Choice" would indicate they had a library of images to choose from. A portrait like the Bowman would have been great but, then, the production still sucked so it wouldn't have mattered too much.

Regardless of any of it--you have a spectacular and desirable card (and piece of history) there!!! Congratulations!!!

[paul]

I have never heard of a Negro League or Latin American league card of Paige. So, his 1949s are his earliest cards. Don't forget about the 1949 Exhibit. Since his Leaf and Bowman cards were issued late in the season, the Exhibit might be the earliest.

[samosa4u]

This card is not mine. I just put it up to make this thread look more attractive.

And holy crap, I did not pay any attention to the back of the card! It says 1949! Why the hell is PSA labeling these cards as a 1948 issue? That's effed up!

I'm surprised he doesn't have a Negro League or Latin American card considering how popular he was. I found this Oscar Charleston card online and assumed that Paige had one too:



Anyways, if these cards were printed during the same year as the Bowmans, then I might just collect the Bowmans instead. This is because 1) the Robinson and Paige cards look more attractive to me than their Leaf cards 2) they cost way less and 3) Bowman is a bigger name than Leaf. I still have to research both sets more before making my decision. And I have to try to track down that article Zanidakis wrote about the Leaf cards (from Old Cardboard Magazine).

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Phil68

First--beautiful card (relative to the issue).
Yes, there are sheets that suggest the Paige--along with quite a few others--were printed less frequently. I believe it was Dr. James Beckett that first passed this info along many, many years ago and the hobby has gone with it.

I it was Beckett, it was before I think 1978. I'd have to dig out the old sports collectors bible and the 78 sport Americana which was a precursor to Beckett.

I vaguely recall one of the scanned newsletters from back then saying a new series had been found, but I'm not positive on that.

[tedzan]

I will save you the SEARCH effort, check-out this thread..... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ight=1949+LEAF





Here is a photo of the 1st Series complete sheet. Obviously, Paige is NOT on it.







FYI
For the umpteenth time....the 1st Series of this LEAF set was printed and issued in the Spring of 1949.
The 2nd Series (SP) was issued in the Summer of 1949.


"Fake-News" PSA is mis-leading the hobby with their "1948" date ! !


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I have a few questions about this card:

1) How do we know for certain that it's a SP? Has anyone ever seen an uncut sheet before?

There also was a find of these that were all short printed 2nd series cards. It is pretty well documented that there were two series printed with at least one more planned. The first had a normal print run, but the second was printed in lesser quantities and future series never made.

[GeoPoto]

All this loud talking is scaring the fish. I would bet Ted knows what he is talking about. We need more sellers and fewer buyers no matter what the actual pop is. Meanwhile, the card is very difficult to find and obtain, you are correct about that.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk