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Posted By: JimCrandell
To keep the momentum going here, I am going to e-mail five major dealer/auction houses and ask them to post their responses to the questions in a matter that Steve from Clean Sweep did--JP from Memory Lane, David Koehler from Sports Cards Plus, Brian Drent from Mile High, Bill Goodwin from Goodwin & Co and Andy Madec. I know JP, Andy, Brian and Bill very well and Dave somewhat. |
#2
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Posted By: Joann
Not advice for you Jim - I appreciate that you have kicked off this string of discussion. But I do have one question or suggestion for Leon. |
#3
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Posted By: FYS
Jim C., |
#4
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Posted By: JimCrandell
That is certainly news to me--he certainly gets some additional questions. |
#5
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Posted By: Jay
That is NOT what the SMR says. The SMR says is that since 1994 Drent has been using PSA's services and has graded many thousand of items through them. |
#6
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Posted By: barrysloate
Auctioning lots you authenticated yourself is a slippery slope. I see some conflicts above and beyond auctioning lots owned by the auctioneer. In a sense, when I write up a lot, such as my 1872 Boston composite photo, I give my professional opinion about it. But there is no one else except myself who really could describe it with authority. There is no third party authenticator for display photographs. I suppose if someone sells a raw card he is both grading it and selling it. But if someone both encapsulates a card and sells it, might be a little more complicated. We are certainly getting into some esoteric areas here. |
#7
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Posted By: Jay
Barry--read my post which came out at the same time as yours |
#8
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Posted By: barrysloate
Jay- this is the second time tonight we posted on the same thread at the same minute. |
#9
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Posted By: barrysloate
We did it again- this is spooky. |
#10
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Posted By: Jay
Barry--I find the thought very scarey of the two of us somehow being in sync |
#11
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Posted By: barrysloate
Mental telepathy? |
#12
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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
I don't have the SMR but I would be shocked if Brian grades for PSA. As I recall Andy Madec had to quit selling when he briefly was a grader, and whatever you think of PSA they are not going to allow an active dealer/auction house to be a grader. |
#13
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Posted By: David R. Selznick
Jim: |
#14
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Posted By: FYS
"That is NOT what the SMR says. The SMR says is that since 1994 Drent has been using PSA's services and has graded many thousand of items through them." |
#15
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Posted By: Jeff Prizner
You can send all these emails and ask for responses, but what will that truly accomplish? If anyone is doing alterations on cards they will also have no problem with lying about it. How can we truly believe anything that comes from any of the auction houses, as their responses here are also inherently financially motivated. |
#16
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Posted By: JimCrandell
If they lie, hopefully the truth will come out somewhere. |
#17
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Jim is right: if one of the auction heads lies about his answer it will come out sooner or later in my opinion. So far Mastro is the only major auction house that actively cracks cards out and provides at least some level of alteration without disclosure. |
#18
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Posted By: Jeff Prizner
ok, but I think it's very naive to think Mastro is the only house that will clean cards or press out wrinkles, regardless of how the others have and will respond. |
#19
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Posted By: JimB
Brian Drent does not grade for PSA. I bought some cards from him about a couple of years ago that were graded by GAI. He was about to send a group of cards to PSA for grading. I asked if he could include mine for crossover with his group before mailing them out to me. He did and only one of four crossed to PSA in the same grade. PSA did cross one of the others when I re-submitted it personally at the National about six months later. All of my experiences with Brian Drent have left me with only the best things to say about him. I think he is one of the good guys in the hobby. |
#20
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Posted By: JimCrandell
E-Mails have been sent to the 5 Dealers mentioned above. |
#21
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Posted By: barrysloate
Jim- as per the FYS post above, there are a number of larger auction houses you left out. Care to ask them to step forward? Can't hurt. |
#22
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Posted By: JimCrandell
Barry, |
#23
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Posted By: Frank Wakefield
Maybe what you need, Jim, is a new forum... one for slabbed cards, or for slabbed card collectors, or something. I suspect that a lot of the folks that look at these slabbed threads could care less, and a few actually find these threads a pain. Seems much ado about nothing to me. |
#24
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Posted By: JimCrandell
Frank, |
#25
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Posted By: JimB
I miss the old Dealer Surveys they annually did in VCBC. I know it would be a lot of work to organize, but it would be great if this website or Old Cardboard magazine would do something like that again. I think that too would be very informative. |
#26
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Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)
Jim, |
#27
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Posted By: DJ
I agree with Frank. |
#28
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Posted By: JimCrandell
DJ, |
#29
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Posted By: ScottIngold
I would imagine that Jim... as in Crandell could come up with a better name than one that begins with his own first name. |
#30
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Posted By: Peter Spaeth
Is that I see no inconsistency between the joy of collecting and discussions of alterations. Certainly the latter is of concern to many collectors, and not all of us are sophisticated enough to spot these on our own so for better or worse we rely on third party grading. Condemning people who do that is like condemning people who can't figure out the law on their own so they consult a lawyer. |
#31
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Posted By: cmoking
I am interested in hearing responses from all the auction houses. I don't see this as a witch hunt. This is not a case of damned if they respond and damned if they don't. Each auction house has the right to decide whether to respond, how to respond or not to respond at all. For those that care about these threads, as I do, we have a right to make of their responses or lack thereof as we see fit. |
#32
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Posted By: Anthony N ex
I'm very interested in hearing the responses from various auction houses as well. I think this is an issue that effects everyone in the hobby either directly or indirectly, and the information is valuable. Whether it effects your buying habits or not is a personal decision, but I would much rather make that decision armed with all the facts as they are presented. |
#33
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Posted By: DJ
Thank you Jim for your response. Maybe "witch hunt" wasn't the proper term for this. Can we compare it to McCarthy-ism then? One dealer at a time on stand? |
#34
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Posted By: JimCrandell
DJ, |
#35
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Posted By: Al C.risafulli
On November 14, I posted a thread called "W502 Back Mystery?". It was exactly the type of thread some folks are talking about - a thread about the cards, where we can all share information and learn something. The thread has 30 responses, and 10 are from me, just trying to keep the thread alive. |
#36
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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
I agree with Frank W and DJ...... |
#37
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Posted By: Peter Spaeth
that people who collect raw cards seem to presume that people who collect graded cards enjoy them less? That is really obnoxious. |
#38
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Posted By: JimCrandell
Sorry you feel that way Ted--there are a large number of us however who are passionate about this issue. And I participate on this board for entirely different reasons than you do--but that doesn't mean that there is not room for both of us. There won't be five new dealer threads every day--relax--particularly if certain dealers will not answer. |
#39
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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox
While this is indeed interesting reading I suspect all auction houses coming around to answer their respective "RFIs" will give the answers we want them to give at this point. |
#40
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Posted By: barrysloate
Obviously, the last 48 hours on this board have revealed a lot of information about graded baseball cards that trouble many, including myself. And clearly Jim Crandell is among those who are very concerned. While not everyone approves of his somewhat aggressive stand, I think he is making it clear that he wants some answers about what is going on behind the scenes. I realize for people who collect VG or raw cards this could be a nonissue. For those who have significant money in high end cards, it is an important issue. He may not get all of these dealers to come on and talk about their businesses, but that is each dealer's prerogative. Perhaps we can all do away with the word "witch hunt" though. For those who have responded Jim has been very polite and those dealers were happy to answer the tough questions. Let's just see how this all unfolds. |
#41
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Posted By: warshawlaw
1. I think the threads in question are valuable and on point and criticisms of Jim for going after the issue are not well taken. I think the continued threads to other marketers in the hobby are especially important given Mastro's apparent view that what they do is a consensus position in the hobby. As can be seen from the auctioneers who have come in and answered to date, Mastro's consensus view is anything but; it appears that the consensus is that those who view Mastro's actions as accepted are a minority of 1, i.e., Mastro. For that alone, the strings and emails are serving a valuable role, even if the result is that everyone but Mastro says "no we don't". Let them go on record with it. |
#42
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Posted By: JK
Jim, |
#43
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Posted By: barrysloate
I agree with Josh that this is a much bigger issue than graded vs. non-graded. It is more about ethics and conducting business in good faith. |
#44
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Posted By: John S
Barry and others make some interesting points. I do not collect high end material (my pre-war collection averages GD-VG), less than 1% of my collection resides in slabs (nothing against slabs, just not my cup of tea), and these recent threads, while disturbing, will not affect my collecting habits. Jim and others have valid concerns regarding the authenticity of high-end cards in their collections. |
#45
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Posted By: JimCrandell
JK, |
#46
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Posted By: ScottIngold
Jim, |
#47
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Posted By: JimCrandell
Scott, |
#48
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Posted By: Frank Evanov
Card altering is a very big issue for graded as well as raw cards. I support Jim in asking these questions. Not all altered cards wind up in slabs. |
#49
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Posted By: Wesley
Jim, |
#50
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Posted By: JimCrandell
Wesley, |
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