W516 copyright observation

[brianp-beme]

First a little background information. These cards, which were issued in strips of 10, and classified as a group as W516, are actually divided into 5 different sets, based upon card numbers, hand/typeset lettering, and normal/reversed images. They are designated in this fashion as follows:

W516-1-1 Hand lettering, normal image

W516-1-2 Hand lettering, reversed image, numbering same as W516-1-1

W516-2-1 Typeset, reversed image, numbering reversed from W516-1 sets above in groups of 10 (1-10, 11-20, 21-30). For example #1 Babe Ruth in the W516-1-1 and W516-1-2 sets is #10, #2 Heinie Groh is #9, #13 Larry Doyle is #18, #24 Christy Mathewson is #27, etc.

W516-2-2 Hand lettering, reverse image, numbering same as W516-2-1

W516-2-3 Typeset, normal image, numbering same as W516-1-1


And now to the revelation. Typically the copyright for all these sets (in guide books, lot listings, etc.) has been identified as 'IFS', which stands for International Feature Services. On rare occasions I have seen 'IFC' (not positive what C stands for...Company? Corporation?) mentioned. Indeed I have noticed throughout the years that some W516 cards could be found with an 'IFC' copyright instead. What I just figured out, after years of scientific research and countless gobs of funds thrown into this intellectual pursuit, is that in all 5 sets it appears that cards numbered 1 through 10 have the 'IFC' copyright, while cards numbering 11 through 30 have the 'IFS' copyright.

I am not sure what the meaning of all of this is, just thought I had to share this breakthrough in W516 copyright info. Let us know if you have any information that adds to what I have outlined, or even if it blows up my whole IFS/IFC conspiracy theory. Please use this information wisely, and ideally for good and not evil purposes.

Brian (a couple of example W516-1-1 cards showing both the IFC (note that it is card #10) and IFS (card #13) copyrights are included for visual reference to help enlighten folks on what the heck I have been detailing above.

[christopher.herman]

Mine. NFS. Ever.

[toppcat]

I looked up International Features Syndicate in my copy of American Newspaper Comics (which has a fairly long and useful syndicator section) and for IFS it states:

"Created in 1906 by Hearst, took over features of Hearst Syndicate in 1909. Managed by Richard Farrelly. Was gradually dropped as the copyright of most features by the mid-1930's. Also known as International News Service."

At a guess, IFS could have treated the W516's as cartoons and that may be an avenue to explore but like you I cannot find anything on IFC. I do note Farrelly was eventually done wrong by Hearst. Maybe you can find some more info with these little bits o'detail.

[Hankphenom]

I wonder if the photos used in the cards came from those syndicates, and that's what the copyrights are for.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Nice Brian. Very cool. I only collect W516-1-1 with Becker/Prize backs and they are all from the 11-20 strip. I have 8 so far with one dupe (so 7 different). If anyone has one of these and is willing to sell or trade one that I don't have for my dupe please PM me.

These all follow your theory as they all have IFS as the copyright.

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[Clutch-Hitter]

W516-1-3: …universal baseball… lettering (not distinguished like w515)

Example:
W515-1: standard card
W515-2: …little wonder picture series… lettering

W516-1-1: cards 1-10 can be found printed on either brown paper or the better quality white e121 type paper on which w516-1-2 is printed.

Most common: w516-1-1 and w516-2-2
Least common: w516-1-2 and w516-2-3.

Haven’t done anything w516 lately but I have several and believe my memory may be right. Not at my computer to post scans.

Great topic. I love strip cards

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Clutch-Hitter

W516-1-3: …universal baseball… lettering (not distinguished like w515)

Example:
W515-1: standard card
W515-2: …little wonder picture series… lettering

W516-1-1: cards 1-10 can be found printed on either brown paper or the better quality white e121 type paper on which w516-1-2 is printed.

Most common: w516-1-1 and w516-2-2
Least common: w516-1-2 and w516-2-3.

Haven’t done anything w516 lately but I have several and believe my memory may be right. Not at my computer to post scans.

Great topic. I love strip cards

Thanks Greg...I didn't realize that a 6th type (W516-1-3) had been recognized. I have one of the "Universal Baseball" cards...so I guess I still have a type set of all W516 issues.

Also interesting to hear that the two types of W516-1-1 (brown AND white paper) are just available for #1-10.

And despite my inaccurate comment on my original post that I have spent years researching these cards, your most common and least common cards lists seem to line up with what I have noticed, with a nod from me to W516-2-1 being right behind W516-2-2 in its availability.

Brian

[edhans]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Nice Brian. Very cool. I only collect W516-1-1 with Becker/Prize backs and they are all from the 11-20 strip.
.

Andy, We've got to get together some day to try see how much of a strip we can reassemble. I'm up to 25 of these, but still have never laid eyes on a Ring or a Kauf.

I also was not aware of the -3 designation. I have always supposed that the caption was only above the top row of the sheet. I can't recall a miscut (very common for strip cards) where it appears below the picture.

[cubman1941]

My W516-2-2.

[bn2cardz]

My contribution to the thread

1921 w516-2-1 Uncut Strip- Milan-Mathewson-Collins-Gowdy with IFS

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Nice Brian. Very cool. I only collect W516-1-1 with Becker/Prize backs and they are all from the 11-20 strip. I have 8 so far with one dupe (so 7 different). If anyone has one of these and is willing to sell or trade one that I don't have for my dupe please PM me.

These all follow your theory as they all have IFS as the copyright.

Andy, We've got to get together some day to try see how much of a strip we can reassemble. I'm up to 25 of these, but still have never laid eyes on a Ring or a Kauf. (quoted what Ed wrote above)


Hi Andy and Ed...nice auxiliary collections of these Becker Prize cards. Being the type of collector I am, I have one of these as well (Doyle). Sorry that it doesn't match up to either of your needs.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

...And it appears that three of the Becker Prize cards that Andy showed would be considered W516-1-3, according to Greg's information he shared.

Brian

[Clutch-Hitter]

I probably don’t know what I’m talking about. It’s not an official designation but to me they’re different from the ones with no lettering. I’ll put up some scans tonight. Got some Beckers too.

Also, the grading companies rarely label these correctly so the pop reports are not a measure of scarcity. And if you think you have a player run, check them again if you relied on a company’s holder. They’ll put -1-2 on anything (all I’ve seen have white paper).

[glchen]

Here's my contribution with some trademark symbol at the top right. Not exactly sure what's written in the globe, but looks like Imperial?

[edhans]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

...And it appears that three of the Becker Prize cards that Andy showed would be considered W516-1-3, according to Greg's information he shared.

Brian

I'm highly dubious about the "-3" designation. The Beckers alone are strong evidence against it. Are we to postulate that Ms. Becker obtained cards from separate issues; and that they all happened to come from the middle series? Far more likely, in my view, is that Ms. Becker acquired a batch of cards from one or two sheets of the same series and that the captioned cards were simply those at the top of the sheet. Going by memory here, but I seem to recall the captions were present on other W516 series.

Greg, would love to see pictures of your examples. Thanks.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by edhans

I'm highly dubious about the "-3" designation. The Beckers alone are strong evidence against it. Are we to postulate that Ms. Becker obtained cards from separate issues; and that they all happened to come from the middle series? Far more likely, in my view, is that Ms. Becker acquired a batch of cards from one or two sheets of the same series and that the captioned cards were simply those at the top of the sheet. Going by memory here, but I seem to recall the captions were present on other W516 series.

Greg, would love to see pictures of your examples. Thanks.

Hello,

The Beckers are strange to all; the tint is. Yeah, because of the tint, I believe they should be differentiated. The cards with lettering (that I own) are slightly thicker therefore a thicker (deeper?) image. I’m not 100% firm and have never seen an uncut sheet with rows and columns. You have? Haven’t handled them in a while, just participating. I did have a great deal of a master set at one time. You may be right though. What are your thought on W515, just one big set?

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by edhans

I'm highly dubious about the "-3" designation. The Beckers alone are strong evidence against it. Are we to postulate that Ms. Becker obtained cards from separate issues; and that they all happened to come from the middle series? Far more likely, in my view, is that Ms. Becker acquired a batch of cards from one or two sheets of the same series and that the captioned cards were simply those at the top of the sheet. Going by memory here, but I seem to recall the captions were present on other W516 series.

Greg, would love to see pictures of your examples. Thanks.

And when we say top row, are we saying only the first several cards would have lettering? The higher number cards would not because further down the sheet?

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by glchen

Here's my contribution with some trademark symbol at the top right. Not exactly sure what's written in the globe, but looks like Imperial?

Love that, Gary! Amazing Ruth collection

[Clutch-Hitter]

2 W516-1-1 Speakers. Need a 2-1 and 1-2 (never seen a 1-2)

1920-21 W516 Speaker by Greg Martin, on Flickr

W516-1-1-05 (Speaker) by Greg Martin, on Flickr

W516-1-05 (Speaker) by Greg Martin, on Flickr

Doyles

W516-1-1-13 (Doyle) by Greg Martin, on Flickr

W516-1-1-13 (Paper Var) by Greg Martin, on Flickr

W516-1-25 (Milan) by Greg Martin, on Flickr

W516-1-27 by Greg Martin, on Flickr

[Clutch-Hitter]

How are these always in such amazing condition? The tint and depth of the image compared to the -1-1


1920 Becker Tablets 14 (W516) by Greg Martin, on Flickr

1920 Becker Tablets 15 (W516) by Greg Martin, on Flickr

1920 Becker Tablets 17 (W516) by Greg Martin, on Flickr

1920 Becker Tablets 19 (W516) by Greg Martin, on Flickr

[Clutch-Hitter]

Some white versions from the first 10 (maybe some of the higher numbers are white and not brownish?)

W516-1-1-02 (Groh) by Greg Martin, on Flickr
W516-1-1-04 (Schalk) by Greg Martin, on Flickr
W516-1-1-05 (Speaker) by Greg Martin, on Flickr
W516-1-1-10 (Burns) by Greg Martin, on Flickr

[edhans]

Originally Posted by Clutch-Hitter

And when we say top row, are we saying only the first several cards would have lettering? The higher number cards would not because further down the sheet?

No. The cards were printed in horizontal strips of ten consecutive numbers with the same subjects repeated vertically. Thus most, if not all, cards on the top row only, would have portions of the caption. Those in the bottom rows would not. It is a curious anomaly that the vast majority of the Becker cards are in remarkably nice condition. I'm guessing that Ms. Becker was more careful with her cutting than a kid would have been and never handed them out. That may also account for the absence of Ring and Kauf and the plethora of Barnes, Adams and Cooper. Perhaps Ring and Kauf were the first subjects to be distributed while the latter three were never given out. I never noticed a different thickness in the card stock. The perceived image quality may be attributable to the Beckers being printed early in the run. I have not seen an uncut sheet, my theories are only that-theories. Due the the size difference, W515 must be considered as two distinct issues. Thanks for posting your cards.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by glchen

Here's my contribution with some trademark symbol at the top right. Not exactly sure what's written in the globe, but looks like Imperial?

Really interesting thread on these, but I have questions: is this the front of one of the tablets you were supposed to save, the cards being on the front? If not, do we know which tablets they're referencing, and how the cards were distributed otherwise? Do we know what the prizes were, how many tablets you had to save for a prize, and how the prize would be claimed--presumably you'd have to send in your tablet fronts somewhere? Anybody ever seen the rules to this contest? Since a "Ms. Becker" has been mentioned here several times, I guess she is the signatory "L.A. Becker," and I'd like to have the skinny on her and her contest.

[edhans]

I don't think anyone knows the answers to your questions, Hank. My statements here are pure speculation. It's highly unlikely that the "tablet fronts" were the actual cards. I think Ms. Becker simply bought the strips from a local merchant and handed them our to her students. Again, pure speculation. I doubt we'll ever learn the truth.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Hey Ed,

I have 3 W516 (W529) boxers that I believe were at one time uncut. “Universal Fighters Matching Cards Series 1” stretches across the top. Also above 2 of the 3 is evidence of cards existing above them on a sheet. Will have to post them on here tonight.

W515: the -2’s are larger but also more colorful. -1’s are relatively dull, plain

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by edhans

I don't think anyone knows the answers to your questions, Hank. My statements here are pure speculation. It's highly unlikely that the "tablet fronts" were the actual cards. I think Ms. Becker simply bought the strips from a local merchant and handed them our to her students. Again, pure speculation. I doubt we'll ever learn the truth.

Thanks, Ed, that makes sense. The cards are probably unrelated to her contest, she just thought they might pay more attention if she promoted it on the back of the cards rather than some other way, like plain paper or a blackboard.

[Clutch-Hitter]

1920 Universal Matching Cards (W516-1) by Greg Martin, on Flickr
W516-1-1-08 (Britton) by Greg Martin, on Flickr

[CobbSpikedMe]

The sheets that included W516 Baseball cards were not exclusive to baseball subjects. We know this because of miscut cards from the baseball and non-baseball sets.

Below I have attached an image of a baseball subject showing a US Presidents W563 set printed above it. Also attached is an image of a W563 showing part of the Jack Dempsey from the W529 Boxers set. The fact that both the W563 and W529 sets also have been found with the Universal "(type of set)" Matching Cards writing at the tops of them tells us that the phrase was indeed found throughout the sheet and not only on the top row.

So it is completely within reason that baseball subjects from each 10 card strip might be found with or without the Universal caption at the top of the cards depending on where they were printed on an individual sheet. I don't believe series 1-10 of W516 were exclusive to the top row of the sheet. Therefore, I don't believe they are a different type based on whether they have the caption or don't have it.

I've also included another example from my collection of Fred Fulton W529 that is very miscut showing not only the Universal caption at the top and the bottom of another Fred Fulton W529 above that.

Note that the only other card that I own that is shown is the Woodrow Wilson with the sliver of Jack Dempsey at the bottom.

[edhans]

Fascinating cards, Andy and Greg. Apparently sheet layouts were all over the map. Especially surprised at the vertical alignment since a few of my Beckers fit horizontally.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Nice work Andy. I haven’t seen a white paper example with the slogan; only on brown paper. Anybody else know of one? I don’t think all the sheets had the slogan is what I’m getting at. Haven’t found my notes but will have more time to look this weekend.

And to clarify, I’m only talking about the -1-1 cards.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by Clutch-Hitter

Nice work Andy. I haven’t seen a white paper example with the slogan; only on brown paper. Anybody else know of one? I don’t think all the sheets had the slogan is what I’m getting at. Haven’t found my notes but will have more time to look this weekend.

And to clarify, I’m only talking about the -1-1 cards.

Thanks Greg although the more in depth research on this was done by Matthew Glidden (Spike on the board I believe) for his blog https://www.number5typecollection.co...-american.html. I always felt the sheets had the slogan to separate the different Baseball/Boxing/Presidents sets and would have been on every sheet regardless of series. That's just what I always thought. I could be wrong of course as I've never seen a full sheet (or even a partial sheet with 2 or more uncut rows). I have a full 10 card set of the W563 Presidents on an uncut strip (I can post an image later if anyone is interested) but it does not contain the slogan. It is however miscut to where the card captions are at the top of the cards instead of the bottom. And I've seen uncut boxing strips as well. Don't have any images of those however.

Really enjoying this thread.


.

[ValKehl]

I thought I had a complete run of the WaJo's W516 cards, until I read this thread.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

I thought I had a complete run of the WaJo's W516 cards, until I read this thread.

That’s a great run! Good example of the white paper version of the -1-1, which is very similar to -1-2 paper. That one was mine previously; happy it made its way to your collection.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

I thought I had a complete run of the WaJo's W516 cards, until I read this thread.

I am guessing we have all had this revelation at some point. It keeps it fun and not stale.

These are from my last collection.....


.

[CobbSpikedMe]

So you had the Burns/Harding card at one point Leon. Cool. I'd like to have that one in my collection as I'm both working on the Presidents set and like miscut strips with different cards showing.



.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by Clutch-Hitter

That’s a great run! Good example of the white paper version of the -1-1, which is very similar to -1-2 paper. That one was mine previously; happy it made its way to your collection.

Greg, thanks for your kind words.

Has anyone ever seen a W516 WaJo with any portion of the "Universal ..." wording at the top of the card?

[Clutch-Hitter]

Going by memory, and what I have, the slogan is on cards numbers:

4-7
14-17
25-28

The others have to be spotted by image and paper type. My Becker #19 above is part of my other Beckers with the slogan.

[Exhibitman]

The analogous W529 issues have at least eight basic subsets, with even more
when color and font variations are considered, some or all of which may be the work of the same company.

W529-1 has handwritten captions at the bottoms of the cards and are numbered from 1-10. The “base” set described by Burdick.



--Type 1 cards can be found with the phrase “Universal Fighters Matching Cards” at the top over Tendler, Leonard and Fulton.



--Type 1 cards can be found on a polished white one-sided stock or the standard rough chip board.
So, we have Type 1-1, Type 1-2 and Type 1-3

W529-2 is the base set with the same numbers but the images reversed (the IFC copyright will be backwards on them).



W529-3 has the images reversed and the numbers in the opposite order of Type 1.



--Type 3 cards also can be found with the legends in blue italicized handwritten captions and blue borders on the cards.

Type 4: Same ten fighters and images with typeset captions at the card bottoms, numbered 50-59



Type 5: Same ten fighters and images with typeset captions at the card bottoms reversed images.



Type 4 and Type 5 have multiple ink color variations.




W529-6 and W529-7 are similar to the "Big Head" baseball cards. Type 6 has primary colors; Type 7 has pastel colors




W529-8 are the cards on that uncut sheet of baseball and boxing mixed subjects with the names in the image field and no numbers. It has only 6 boxers of the ten found on the others. Color combos vary.

[Spike]

I've studied these sets for several years, taking note of paper stock, ink quality, possible dating based on subjects, number sequences, IFC/IFS insignia, and UNIVERSAL text variations. Several observations came from this work.

Based on similarity to the design, paper stock, and card text of other paper toys made by Universal Toy & Novelty Manufacturing Company of Illinois, I believe that company released all 30 W516 baseball cards, ten W529 boxing cards, 20 Hollywood cards, ten W53 US presidents, and several other subjects that share the same general design for various distribution methods. They printed (at least) strip cards and notebooks based on available images.

Based on the "(C)IFC" or "(C)IFS" licensing of original images, I think Universal Toy started printing sheets of strip cards for Hollywood movies in 1919, soon added baseball and boxing, and expanded into more non-sport sets by 1921. The small globe logo seen on some notebook pages is Universal's own logo, with "Universal" printed on the banner.

William Randolph Hearst's media empire owned (or claimed to own) the licensing rights for many original images for Universal's boxing, Hollywood, and baseball strips, hence the ©IFS, ©IFC, or © that appear on those cards. Two images, Douglas Fairbanks (actor) and Johnny Dundee (boxer) also show the APEDA studio insignia. APEDA did similar photo licensing work in this era.

Turbulence in Hearst's IFS/IFC companies between 1919 and 1920 appear to have led Universal to drop its license attribution. I bet this move cut costs and reflects legal wrangling over image ownership in that era. W520 and W522 baseball sets, for example, appear to be part of larger, multi-subject Universal Toy strips printed in 1920-21 without any licensing. (They might've done this to test recent legal challenges to ownership of a licensed image.)

Print cutting was so poor on many strips that adjacent subjects from the same set or different sets tell us something about their print layout. Sheets for these sets were at least 20 cards wide (two ten-card strips) and perhaps wider. While it's unclear how _tall_ its print sheets were, I think they were at least ten strips high and perhaps taller.

In some cases, it appears Universal Toy printed multiple subjects on the same sheets. In others, they repeated the same subject over and over. I think the layout changed to fit the reason for each sheet. If a Hollywood publicist wanted cards for a movie promotion, they printed those Hollywood cards all at once. If Universal Toy needed something for their own boxes of paper toys, they printed several subjects on one sheet. This work met business needs of the moment and I doubt they thought about who would try to "collect" such cheap products.

Something about their printing process made it practical to print reversed images on some sheets, even when these reversals made baseball players change their dominant hand. Baseball, boxing, US Presidents, Hollywood, and other strips sets came with reversed, if otherwise identical, images. This led to interesting images like this backward strip of presidents (Harding at left, Washington at right) below the titles for a non-reversed 1921 Charlie Chaplin movie strip.

I'll post again soon with a matrix of card details to look for when sorting out these strip sets and their many subjects.

[Spike]

People asked about HOF variations earlier, as well as placement of title text on the strip and printing sheets.

1. The W516-1 version with title text has its own text alignment variations and one of them includes #24 Mathewson. Apologies to his player collectors!

2. Title text can appear multiple times on the same print sheet, above each strip. The boxer variations below show #6 Fulton's card has the "UNIVERSAL" title and another boxing strip _above_ it, so this appears to be a single sheet with repeated boxing strips. I think Universal Toy added their own text to compete against other strip card makers by confirming you were holding a Universal-made strip and (in 1921) adding copyright information to the end of their strips.

If you own cards that fill in the missing variations or have other interesting variations, please share scans!

[Clutch-Hitter]

Becker was a company, not an individual teacher. This makes much more sense.

https://www.shopbecker.com/about-us/

[ricktmd]

Here is a Speaker W516-1-2

[edhans]

Double post.

[edhans]

Originally Posted by Clutch-Hitter

Becker was a company, not an individual teacher. This makes much more sense.

Interesting, but raises more questions than it answers. The founder's name is Charles J. Becker, so the initials do not match. It could, I suppose, have been his wife. The site does not state an exact date when the company was founded, but alludes to "the early 1920s" which lines up with the issue date for W516-1. Most curious is why the "company" would hand write the reverses instead of stamping them. Who were they asking to save their tablet fronts? Were they marketing to teachers? schools? or to the kids directly? The mystery continues...

[rgpete]

Here are My 2

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by edhans

Interesting, but raises more questions than it answers. The founder's name is Charles J. Becker, so the initials do not match. It could, I suppose, have been his wife. The site does not state an exact date when the company was founded, but alludes to "the early 1920s" which lines up with the issue date for W516-1. Most curious is why the "company" would hand write the reverses instead of stamping them. Who were they asking to save their tablet fronts? Were they marketing to teachers? schools? or to the kids directly? The mystery continues...

I have a hard time accepting the idea that this Becker company was behind these cards. Why would they hand write this note on the back and put anyone's name on the note? I am strongly under the belief that a teacher made these and passed them out to the children. What I have never been able to conclude is why the note was written on these cards and given the children in the first place. Why wouldn't Becker just tell the kid to save their tablet fronts for a prize or write it on the side of the chalk board and leave it there (i.e. not erase that part of the board for a while)? What's the purpose of the cards in this whole scenario?

And why have we never seen one that is not in really nice condition? I like Ed's idea that these ones were never distributed and are leftovers. That would explain the condition being so nice for them. The ones that were given out were either turned in with the tablet fronts and just tossed in the trash, or the kids kept them, and they eventually ended up in trash that way.




.