Hey, pennant guys

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by rlevy

Yes, that was where I bought it, along with some other pennants from the same time period.

Great acquisition, and apparently still just two of that Dodgers version known to exist!

[bobw]

A closer look at the pennant

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Great acquisition, and apparently still just two of that Dodgers version known to exist!

If I did indeed buy a "rare" one, many others are about to surface for sale everywhere.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by rlevy

If I did indeed buy a "rare" one, many others are about to surface for sale everywhere.

Hahaha...Thought that only happened to me.

[Fballguy]

I bought and then un-bought this last night. It was priced too good to pass up and then upon closer inspection I started to realize why. Unless this is some kind of early prototype, it looks like a crafts class project. Is it just me or do I see tracing lines on some of the graphics and really sloppy cutting?

I have a real version of this one and comparing the two, the differences were glaring...so I backed out.

To the seller's credit, he didn't give me a hard time and he does have a couple other legit football pennants from the era, but nothing as valuable as this one would be if real.

[bocca001]

Rob- I agree that the cutting of the letters looks sloppy. Can you post some pics of your other one to compare?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Rob- I agree that the cutting of the letters looks sloppy. Can you post some pics of your other one to compare?

LOL! I bought this after it was reposted. I have same questions and I’ll know when I see and feel it. And if it ain’t legit I’ll have this documentation to return it. I noticed the exact same things, the graphics look a bit more crude, the face and the stars on the boots are different. Seems like an odd pennant to reproduce, though. Could be a vintage knockoff? We will see!

[thetahat]

Here’s a pic I found online, details much smoother. So it’s different. The spine even looks a little crude in this one. We’ll see

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

I bought and then un-bought this last night. It was priced too good to pass up and then upon closer inspection I started to realize why. Unless this is some kind of early prototype, it looks like a crafts class project. Is it just me or do I see tracing lines on some of the graphics and really sloppy cutting?

I have a real version of this one and comparing the two, the differences were glaring...so I backed out.

To the seller's credit, he didn't give me a hard time and he does have a couple other legit football pennants from the era, but nothing as valuable as this one would be if real.

Can you confirm that the graphics were in fact screen printed atop the felt? From your photos it almost looks like the graphics were cut from a sheet of vinyl; then affixed to the felt. But that should be pretty obvious when you have it in hand.

You can definitely see evidence of the scissor marks on the lettering ... had this been screen printed, they would look more smooth. Unless they utilized an open stencil that was cut from hand...?

I think the original pennant was made by ADFLAG; and to my knowledge they always screen printed their pennants using the conventional method.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

LOL! I bought this after it was reposted. I have same questions and I’ll know when I see and feel it. And if it ain’t legit I’ll have this documentation to return it. I noticed the exact same things, the graphics look a bit more crude, the face and the stars on the boots are different. Seems like an odd pennant to reproduce, though. Could be a vintage knockoff? We will see!

Looking forward to the verdict!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Can you confirm that the graphics were in fact screen printed atop the felt? From your photos it almost looks like the graphics were cut from a sheet of vinyl; then affixed to the felt. But that should be pretty obvious when you have it in hand.

You can definitely see evidence of the scissor marks on the lettering ... had this been screen printed, they would look more smooth. Unless they utilized an open stencil that was cut from hand...?

I think the original pennant was made by ADFLAG; and to my knowledge they always screen printed their pennants using the conventional method.

Yeah I’ll know right away. The seller seems like a quality guy, I’ll say that much.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Rob- I agree that the cutting of the letters looks sloppy. Can you post some pics of your other one to compare?

Here's mine vs this oddity...

[thetahat]

What it looks like, compared to yours, is that the letters were cut out in small straight lines. Like with a utility knife.

[Fballguy]

The lack of detail jumps out to me. The face looks almost like a Michael Myers mask and he's missing the top part of his hat. The intricate cuts look like they were quite a struggle for the maker too. I asked the seller if the graphics and lettering were stuck on and he said he couldn't tell. Definitely appears as if they are.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

The lack of detail jumps out to me. The face looks almost like a Michael Myers mask and he's missing the top part of his hat. The intricate cuts look like they were quite a struggle for the maker too. I asked the seller if the graphics and lettering were stuck on and he said he couldn't tell. Definitely appears as if they are.

Yep I agree.

[perezfan]

Looks like this one was crafted by either Tim Carroll or Ben Caraher.

I didn't know they were doing pennants now!

[thetahat]

Received the "pennant". Total fugazi. Can tell within 0.5 seconds upon seeing it in person. Graphics are cut out and glued on, also they are painted by hand to match. Looks very sloppy up close. You can see pencil marks where the cutting was not precise, and the cuts are in small straight lines as if an exacto knife was used. Keeping it in the pennant holder for the pics was a shrewd move by the seller.

Anyway, seller refuses to accept return, says this is my "opinion", insists it is authentic, and tried to educate me on pennants. He even sent me a link to KB's weebly blog (which allowed me to tell him that my pictures are actually used on the site). Anyway I had to report him to eBay, they should protect me for this. Hopefully they do something about the seller who will almost certainly pass this along to someone else.

[perezfan]

What a piece of sh*t seller. Ebay will inevitably rule in your favor, but it will take a few days before they can render a judgement and refund your money.

Sorry you have to go through the ordeal... but no worries, you'll be covered.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

What a piece of sh*t seller. Ebay will inevitably rule in your favor, but it will take a few days before they can render a judgement and refund your money.

Sorry you have to go through the ordeal... but no worries, you'll be covered.

Thanks Mark. Get a load of his reply to eBay for my refund request. Even says I might be right that it is homemade but sent them a link to KBs blog. What a bad dude.

[thetahat]

It gets worse! (I sent the seller and eBay a link to this thread.)

[Fballguy]

I originally thought the guy just didn't know any better. Now he seems like a scumbag. I asked if the graphics were glued on and he said he checked them and they weren't. He must not have checked them very thoroughly.

[Fballguy]

Especially funny that he is trying to explain the history of pennants to someone in Manila who doesn't even read the messages and is simply following a script that ends with "process refund".

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

I originally thought the guy just didn't know any better. Now he seems like a scumbag. I asked if the graphics were glued on and he said he checked them and they weren't. He must not have checked them very thoroughly.

There’s a reason he kept it in the holder for the pictures ... and he is basically conceding that it is homemade. I’m just embarrassed that I fell for it. I am the Manti Teo of pennant collectors. Am I still allowed to post here or do I get banished for being such a dope?

[perezfan]

His closing argument is that having an old hand-made pennant is more desirable than a manufactured one.

What a fool. Does he also think reprints are better than original cards? Or that Type 4 Photos are superior to Type 1? Or perhaps a traced autograph is more desirable than an original. Who is this seller, anyway.... the Acofind guy?

Let's all trace the Honus Wagner Card, color it in, and make millions. And you won't even need to stay within the lines!

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

There’s a reason he kept it in the holder for the pictures ... and he is basically conceding that it is homemade. I’m just embarrassed that I fell for it. I am the Manti Teo of pennant collectors. Am I still allowed to post here or do I get banished for being such a dope?

Well you did get "catfished" on this one... But we've probably all been burned to some extent (at some point in time). This one is just a bit more egregious. Rather than a complete net54 banishment, perhaps a week off is appropriate, since he concealed it beneath the toploader.

At the risk of dating myself, it reminds me of those Colorforms cut-outs that were popular in the 1960s.

[bocca001]

Sorry, Greg. I'm sure it will all work out in the end. Clear fake.

Maybe post a nice pic of the horror show face for us so we can see it up close.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Sorry, Greg. I'm sure it will all work out in the end. Clear fake.

Maybe post a nice pic of the horror show face for us so we can see it up close.

I already packed it away, expecting to mail it back. But he’s not budging so I have to go through eBay protection. This guy has no shame ... he now admits that it is handmade but says that’s different from *homemade*. LOL. He’s hanging his hat on something from KB’s blog about the very first ever pennants being handmade. What a piece of excrement. He knows it’s a fake.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by thetahat

I already packed it away, expecting to mail it back. But he’s not budging so I have to go through eBay protection. This guy has no shame ... he now admits that it is handmade but says that’s different from *homemade*. LOL. He’s hanging his hat on something from KB’s blog about the very first ever pennants being handmade. What a piece of excrement. He knows it’s a fake.

Unfortunately for him the very first pennants weren’t made in 1962.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Unfortunately for him the very first pennants weren’t made in 1962.

EXACTLY! Yes, the very first pennants ever made likely came from mom's sewing machine ... but that was in 1904, before felt novelty pennants were commercially available in every college town! This pennant is in an entirely different league being a) screen printed; b) for a professional sports team; and c) made in the 1960s. Any suggestion that my BLOG supports his notion that it was commonplace for such a contemporary pennant to be homemade--and using vinyl lettering no less--is laughable.

Nobody would do that in 1962 ... not for a $0.50 souvenir!

The only person that would spend the type of time and money it took to re-create this is someone who understands the contemporary value of that pennant today, which I suppose is closer to ... $500? Which means it was likely made last month...

I'm sorry Greg. Send me a PM with the seller's contact and I'll be glad to challenge him on any of this if you think it'd help resolve this sooner.

[thetahat]

Closure ... so eBay notified me that I was entitled to a refund and told me to return. About as clear-cut of a fake memorabilia case as you’d find. Special thanks to KB for helping. The seller then sent me this, apparently his feelings were hurt. Awww..... don’t try to pull a fast one on your buyers in the first place and you won’t be called out for it. He never did acknowledge the voided sale to Rob just minutes before my purchase. I don’t believe for a second he didn’t exactly know what he was doing.

As a side note, in 20+ years of buying this is the first such experience with a shady seller. I’ve been lucky.

[perezfan]

If you don't want your feelings to be hurt, do not rip people off. He should seriously apply for a position with PSA.

Glad you got your refund quickly. His preaching to you about the legitimacy of a vintage pennant was akin to Mr. Magoo telling Mario Andretti how to drive.

[thetahat]

Our buddy just sold a Packers pennant ... at least he’s pleading ignorance in his description ... but look at the spine on this one. Yikes! (Otherwise looks original but who knows.)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Green-Bay-P...p&LH_Auction=1

EDIT: This is also full-blown fake. Look around the edges of the letters and graphic. Looks like they have been cut out and pasted. So he knows but covers his tracks by saying “it could be homemade”. Posted it cheap, someone bought it right away probably without reading carefully. No doubt he’ll fight the buyer if he is unhappy.

(Oh and he offered this to me after I bought the fake Texans pennant ... for $175.)

[Fballguy]

I was going to say much better job on the Packers, but looking closely it looks like the letters are held on with clear tape? The football player and lettering are much better than the Texans effort.

EDIT: I see what he did...The graphic and lettering were printed on green material that matches the color of the "felt" (?) used for the pennant. That way the rough cut isn't nearly as noticeable.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

I was going to say much better job on the Packers, but looking closely it looks like the letters are held on with clear tape? The football player and lettering are much better than the Texans effort.

EDIT: I see what he did...The graphic and lettering were printed on green material that matches the color of the "felt" (?) used for the pennant. That way the rough cut isn't nearly as noticeable.

Still, lots of time and effort spent for a measly $35 bucks.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Still, lots of time and effort spent for a measly $35 bucks.

“So it’s possible that this was homemade ...”

[bocca001]

I picked up this 1965 Giants NL Champs phantom pennant from Fballguy recently. I have seen many damaged copies of this pennant (especially to the bottom corner) and am excited to have this nice copy.

I'm curious to see other phantom pennants from your collections and to hear any interesting details about the pennant or team.

I've always liked this Giants pennant because it is one of the few (only?) Giants items related to Warren Spahn's brief time with the team. 1965 is also the year that Juan Marichal went after John Roseboro with a bat after Roseboro intentionally threw the ball inches away from Marichal's face. My dad always told me that this incident (and Marichal being suspended) cost the Giants the pennant, but I think the Dodgers won something like 14 of their lat 15 games, which probably had more to do with it.

The pennant is also fun because of the misspelling of Willie McCovey's (McCOVERY) name and it includes a good number of HOFers (Mays, Cepeda, Perry, Marichal, Spahn, McCovey). It also includes Masanori Murakami, recognized as the first player from Japan to play in the MLB.

[murphusa]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Still, lots of time and effort spent for a measly $35 bucks.

Maybe, just maybe a father made one for his son back in the day when the could find one to buy

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Rather than a complete net54 banishment, perhaps a week off is appropriate, since he concealed it beneath the toploader.

I agree with a week off. After all, we "pennant guys" have standards to uphold!

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by bocca001

I picked up this 1965 Giants NL Champs phantom pennant from Fballguy recently. I have seen many damaged copies of this pennant (especially to the bottom corner) and am excited to have this nice copy.

I'm curious to see other phantom pennants from your collections and to hear any interesting details about the pennant or team.

I've always liked this Giants pennant because it is one of the few (only?) Giants items related to Warren Spahn's brief time with the team. 1965 is also the year that Juan Marichal went after John Roseboro with a bat after Roseboro intentionally threw the ball inches away from Marichal's face. My dad always told me that this incident (and Marichal being suspended) cost the Giants the pennant, but I think the Dodgers won something like 14 of their lat 15 games, which probably had more to do with it.

The pennant is also fun because of the misspelling of Willie McCovey's (McCOVERY) name and it includes a good number of HOFers (Mays, Cepeda, Perry, Marichal, Spahn, McCovey). It also includes Masanori Murakami, recognized as the first player from Japan to play in the MLB.

+1 for Fballguy. I'm very pleased with the 2 that I bought.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

+1 for Fballguy. I'm very pleased with the 2 that I bought.

Thank you. Happy to hear that!

[thetahat]

Okay my week suspension for being a catfished dumba$$ is over, here’s a new pickup of a Keezer Philadelphia A’s ... more commonly found on blue felt. Keezer typically stuck to one color for each team, exceptions of which I am aware include Pirates and Red Sox.

[Bumpus Jones]

I like it!

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Thank you. Happy to hear that!

My two pennants from Fballguy arrived yesterday. Very excited about them, especially the 1976 WS pennant. Already posted these in November Pickups. Along with the two I picked up from PerezFan, they'll make for a nice little collection along the top of the wall.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Okay my week suspension for being a catfished dumba$$ is over, here’s a new pickup of a Keezer Philadelphia A’s ... more commonly found on blue felt. Keezer typically stuck to one color for each team, exceptions of which I am aware include Pirates and Red Sox.

Nice pickup Greg...

It looks great in red, and isn't this one usually found in 3/4 size as well? Never seen a red full sized one... congrats!

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by todeen

My two pennants from Fballguy arrived yesterday. Very excited about them, especially the 1976 WS pennant. Already posted these in November Pickups. Along with the two I picked up from PerezFan, they'll make for a nice little collection along the top of the wall.

Glad you like them Tim!

[murphusa]

Another group found in the Philly area including the second New home of dodgers in the past weeks

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by murphusa

Another group found in the Philly area including the second New home of dodgers in the past weeks

On ebay?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by murphusa

Another group found in the Philly area including the second New home of dodgers in the past weeks

???? What does this mean exactly? A big find?

[thetahat]

Well if you’re gonna complete an AFL set, all roads run through Dallas. And I had to fill the void left from that homemade disaster. (Finally got refund.) Next up: Titans. With school moved back to online and winter break in two weeks, and also being semi-quarantined, will soon be resuming my photo inventory ...

[bocca001]

Nice, Greg.

That dark blue felt on the Oilers pennant is so clear when you have the light and the dark next to each other. I need to find one of those.