Mastro and Psa

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Posted By: Dave F

"Shelly,

I understand you are an expert on card alterations. I would urge you to post on that subject on Scott and Jay's board where serious discussions are welcomed. Kevin Saucier who I consider to be a true expert on the subject now posts over there.

Jim"


What do you call the above Crandell? Other than an obvious statement made to once again bring attention to you....I'm also going to start thinking like you do....its a personal attack on this board Crandell that you initiated.

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Posted By: John

“Great news--I am a forgiving kind of guy who can forgive almost anything and I forgive you for your previous nasty comments.”

If I recall you were no angel I think we both may have had our reasons and points of view which lead to our past disagreements. But once again you manage to come off condescending and a bit like a small child holding a grudge. I’m so glad you can forgive me for all the hurtful things I did to you…..I can only hope that the therapy is going smoothly now.

Jim do yourself a favor and move into a bubble where nobody can hurt you any more, you poor innocent lamb.

Now go ahead and tattle to daddy Leon, and get me banned, for being so mean to you yet again.

Leon if I broke the rules my bad, I tried to be civil, and asked what I thought was a legitimate question based off Kevin's response above, not a personal question just a question. Which the last time I checked was what we did here amongst each other. Sorry if I abused anyone by doing so.

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Posted By: Dave F

Crandell isn't getting anybody kicked off this board anytime soon. That is wishful thinking. If anything he is the one himself bouncing up and down on the diving board.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- the one comment you made that I respectfully disagree with is there are serious and substantive discussions taking place on this board, many of which I consider important and worthwhile.

And Jeff- I think that is asking too much, more than you are likely to see anytime soon (unfortunately).

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

If I were inclined to diagnose over the internets ala the esteemed Senator Doctor Bill Frist of Tennessee I would say That Jim lacks self-awareness on a level that I would classify as a personality disorder. Therefore I will stop picking on the poor fella as I have come to realize that he can not help himself and he no longer has my derision, but has earned my pity.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

John,

I answered your question about Kevin honestly each time and I forgave you for your prior nastiness. Don't understand why you want to continue to go after me--seems like what would make you the happiest is if I submitted all 24,983 cards to Kevin and then I publicized which ones he thought might be suspect and then I told sgc to relabel those cards authentic and then I went to sell them and took a financial loss...and you would be happy...especially so if it caused me personal and financial hardship.

Paul,

Okay--at least you call me Jim--you shall be Paul.

Asphaltman,

If it makes you feel better to keep insulting me go right ahead.....I would just say you are building up a good history of personal attacks.

Jim

"If anyone else wants to (continue to) attack anyone on this board personally, including me, then they will be banned"--Leon Luckey

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Bretta Bretta Bretta,

Can you possibly let a day go by without more insults and attacks--come on--you have been thinking all day and this is the best you can come with--your personal attacks are usually a lot more vicious than this--come on.

Jim

"If anyone else wants to (continue to) attack anyone on this board personally, including me, then they will be banned"--Leon Luckey

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Since you are unable or unwilling to provide a single scan to this board, or at least I have never seen one, would you be so kind as to provide a list, partial list or even a few examples of what pre-war baseball cards you own, so that we on this pre-war baseball card forum can find some common areas of discussion? Thanks in advance.

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Posted By: Dave F

Jim...I haven't said it today. But, saying your a moron doesn't equate to a personal attack. It's a basic obversation. Everything else I have said has been nothing more than speaking the truth...

And I do love how you keep going with "Asphaltman" even though my name is right there as well. I don't care either though...if it makes you feel like tough guy to say Asphaltman...then go ahead and beat on your chest Crandell.

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Posted By: Dave F

Todd...with respect to Jim. He does actually own quite a bit of high end cards...probably as many as anyone. I believe the story I got was that he ws involved in Fruit Loops or Apple Jacks...something in that ballfield. Maybe Crandell can clarify.

But I agree...he doesn't contribute anything to the board as far as his collection, or his thoughts or opinions on anything card related other than this grading issue...which is a stale pig at this point.

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Posted By: John

Jim,

Not at all, even though we get under each others skin per say. I don’t wish you and your family financial loss or any hardships. We have our occasional pissing matches Jim, but I don’t get off on schadenfreude yours or anyone else’s for that matter.

No Jim, it was more if Kevin found cards, would you use a few of those cards which I assume to be very $$$ to champion your cause again, and hold these grading companies and sellers liable and perhaps bring attention to the issues you so passionately always talk about? Or would you keep it to yourself not risk the loss and pass it along to the next guy? Nobody’s expecting you to be a hero, in fact in your shoes not sure what I would do, but then again I’m not the guy who had a pizza party to clean this stuff up either.

You championed the cause here and with others, so you in way pigeon holed yourself into having to do the right thing, if not you run the risk of being a hypocrite. That’s all I’m saying. Maybe that makes no sense if not I’m sorry.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jim, you are right...I will stop picking on you from here on out.

Leon, please don't ban me!!!

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Todd,

I don't have a scanner...although now that I bought a new computer I will have to take my friend Al Crisafulli up on his offer to set me up.

All my sets are up on the PSA Set Registry under Davalillo. I have talked about what sets I own many times--but I am on this board not to talk about the cards as much as the serious issues facing the hobby. Thought that Net54 would be a good place to do that. Maybe not.

Jim

"If anyone else wants to (continue to) attack anyone on this board personally, including me, then they will be banned"--Leon Luckey

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"All we want is to ensure that the grading companies be able to spot altered cards and stop providing favors to their big clients and for the auction companies to stop altering cards, stop selling items owned by the very people that authenticate them (i.e., stop conflicts of interest), and to stop shill bidding. Is that asking all that much?"




Best post I have seen in a long time!




Kevin

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Posted By: JimCrandell

DaveF,

I thought your screen name was Asphaltman...I didn't remembner DaveF

And calling someone a moron is a personal attack and if Leon means what he says you should be gone and the board would be a better place. This should be a board where people can discuss all issues surrounding vintage cards not insult someone continually like you seem to enjoy doing....and to think, if you are the guy from Alpharetta, you are practically my next door neighbor. I thought Southerners had more manners.

John,

I don't know what I would do as I have not thought about it and probably will not do it...and I don't think that makes me a hypocrite.

I had the dinner to get peoples ideas about what could be done--sorry I was trying to actually do some good for the hobby--some(not you) would rather insult me than see something accomplished.

Jim

"If anyone else wants to (continue to) attack anyone on this board personally, including me, then they will be banned"--Leon Luckey

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Posted By: John

I agree Kevin, Jeff hit it on the head….but Jeff how do you suggest or handle all the cards out there that have already been given that unfair set of guidelines.

Sort of hard to draw a line in the sand and say from here on out will do it right, and do those past items hold their value or not, and if not who foots the bill to make it all better?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Kevin,

Absolutely--however, there are a lot of people with a big vested interest in the status quo which continues to look more shaky with each passing month.

Jim

"If anyone else wants to (continue to) attack anyone on this board personally, including me, then they will be banned"--Leon Luckey

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Posted By: Dave F

Crandell..

The bottom line is this "fix the grading company" debate is going nowhere. It has been for months..and it's getting old.

Your like the kid that sits in the sun burning ants with a magnifying class. Please Jim...give the "debate" a rest and go look at some of your 1959 topps.

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Posted By: John

Jim,

Enough please, I’m not trying to belittle your efforts if anything I’m applauding them, but even you have to admit it’s a tricky situation. Champion a cause and expecting an industry, companies and people to make sacrifices that you yourself may not be ready or willing to take.

Sort of like launching a global warming film and fueling up your Gulfstream a dozen times to jet set the world….ehhh Leo! LOL

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Posted By: JimCrandell

John,

In all seriousness and not because I own 24,983 graded cards, I think you draw the line in the sand and make it better from here. Even if Jim Crandell resubmits his cards to SGC the rest of the world will not.

Thats why I think Kevin's seal of approval is such a good idea. Over time if it works than in order for a graded card to even be sold at auction it would have to have that seal--ebverything else would be potentially suspect.

Jim

"If anyone else wants to (continue to) attack anyone on this board personally, including me, then they will be banned"--Leon Luckey

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Come on DaveF, make your insults even more biting --you can do even better--you must be 90% of the way to being thrown off by now--take it over the top--I promise to lead the cheers as you go up in flames.

Jim

"If anyone else wants to (continue to) attack anyone on this board personally, including me, then they will be banned"--Leon Luckey

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Posted By: Marc S.

in all seriousness, if you look at the industry dynamics as a whole...the biggest change in the hobby over the past 10 years is that grading fees have GONE DOWN. People submit lower-grade, less valuable, more modern cards to PSA, SGC, etc. today than they did 10 years ago. Significantly more...to the point that from an industry perspective, the grading companies are much happier to have higher volume, lower margin business than the reverse.

At the end of the day, the only real way to address the needs that you so desperately advocate is to go back to grading fees of $8 - $10 on every card that is submitted, so that additional grading scrutiny can be assessed to each card graded. This wouldn't even begin to address the legacy issues, but it would address the prospective integrity issues.

That said -- I cannot find any compelling reason that any of the grading companies would make such a change and switch their business model. Unless that happens, it seems like we are asking for Tiffany quality service from Joe's Diamond Shack.

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Posted By: John

Jim,

Interesting, but that is a real shame. Why even have a grading system or grading companies at all? We paid these people for their opinion if we have to get second “seal of approval” from Kevin or whoever why do we have to pay twice and what di we pay for the first time? Then what happens when Kevin or whoever is deemed to be tainted as well, then what a second “seal of approval” on our first “seal of approval”?

At that point were better off not having any grading companies and doing like we did before they came along. IMO

Regards,

John

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Any thread that uses the word "schadenfreude" has to be locked down immediately, for everyone's good.

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Posted By: Dave F

who used that word? i used fruit loops and apple jacks

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Hi Marc--how is your new job going? Now that you are a commuter we need to grab lunch.

I don't disagree--but do you think at $15 per card that PSA/SGC would do measurably better. I think PSA probably thinks that the job they are doing is just fine and that there isn't a problem.

Jim

"If anyone else wants to (continue to) attack anyone on this board personally, including me, then they will be banned"--Leon Luckey

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Posted By: Steve Murray

is it worthwhile to read the 322 previous posts?

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Posted By: John

Yes and no Steve, but I hear the TV movie will be very good.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

John,

I agree but you are never going to get most collectors to resubmit their cards and you would never know which had been resubmitted.

Jim

"If anyone else wants to (continue to) attack anyone on this board personally, including me, then they will be banned"--Leon Luckey

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Posted By: Jim VB

Here's the condensed version.


NY Daily News accuses Mastro of wielding PSA grades like a tool and threatening a potential consigner.

Scott Elkins says that Mastro does "doctor" cards. Has proof. Shows one of his consignments, from years ago, showing before and after evidence. He doesn't realize that this proof also proves he was complicit. Gets in a huge fight with half the board. Takes sensless cheap shots at Leon. Dares Leon to ban him. RIP.

Long debate ensues about what is "acceptable preparation" of a card before grading and auction. (Water v. Bleach?)

Shelly gets repeatedly reminded that he's a felon (like he was going to forget.)

Jay and Charlie B. go a few rounds.

Jim Crandell gets in a long discussion with Dan B., t-206, et al concerning cleaning up the hobby. He wants it done, NOW! (Just start with somebody else's cards.)

Several other side stories rise and quickly die.

I just saved you a couple of hours.

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Posted By: T206Collector

"I agree but you are never going to get most collectors to resubmit their cards and you would never know which had been resubmitted."

You may call me a status quo guy, relying exclusively on SGC's money-backed guarantee to navigate these choppy waters, but given this statement there is no hope getting the crap that has already been holdered off the street.

That is why I find these discussions a little bit like a 100 year old game of musical chairs. We can talk ethics and change until we're all blue in the face -- but you can't get around your sentence above.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

There's only a very small handfull of wimps on this board, but to them, a game of Paddy Cake is considered an ATTACK!

Peace LUVIN jOE

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Posted By: shane Leonard

Jim,
I know that you are completely against any type of "handling" a card whether tier 1 or 3, however I would be willing to bet you have some sort of "handling" done to your collection. Like someone mentioned above that it is not going to be a hack job, but with you having 25K slabbed cards in your collection there is going to be the wiped off dirt, wiped off wax stain, or pressed down corner some where. I know that majority of your collection came from years of collecting a long time ago. I also know that you had others submit the cards for you too. I am sure that you did not let a novice submit these for you.
I personal would not worry about what has or has not been done to the slabbed cards. Just keep going forward and enjoy the run to 100.

My best,
Shane

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Posted By: MikeU

Jim,

Last year I thought you were genuine in cleaning up the hobby and I even communicated to yourself that I wanted to be involed with your work and would contribute $100. Now I am just sick of hearing you talk about it and doing nothing, when you of all people actually have influence to do something. So please do something or shut up about the subject. I will even suggest a plan.

If you truly want to clean up the hobby:

1. Take everyone of your cards and inspect with a black light.
2. Place the cards that glow or have any glowing piece in a pile.
3. Buy a plane ticket for Kevin to come out and inspect the non-glowing cards for trimming, overgrades, tampered holders or flips, surface wrinkle resurfacing, rebacking etc. I am certain Kevin would do this for free, as he is trying to gain credibility.
4. Put Kevin's card in a pile.
5. Gauge the number of cards in both piles vs. total number of cards to get a good idea of the real problem at hand. I think you have enough slabs that this information gathered should have strong correlation to the general masses. If you have very few cards with problems, then maybe things are pretty sound. If you have many, then you and many other people are correct.
6. Publish an article about your findings e.g. the amazement of how few cards have problems or the amazement of the reverse and what specific reform needs done.
7. As a PSA HOF collector, you should have the ear of J.O., so yourself and Kevin can work with Joe on how improvements/reform can be made. Kevin can then earn the respect of J.O. and get a job and reform is in progress.

Again, do something or shut up.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Shane,

Yeah--probably a little dirt and dust along the way removed--

Still enjoying the trip to 100--but it gets tougher.

Jim

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Sorry to disappoint you Mike but I am not going to risk my kids education on this--my changes are all prospectively from here. Your game plan for cleaning up the hobby is Jim Crandell exposes himself to financial loss by havving his cards looked at.

Jim

"If anyone else wants to (continue to) attack anyone on this board personally, including me, then they will be banned"--Leon Luckey.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Imagine this. Somebody out there sets up the ultimate alteration-detection grading company possible. Every conceivable gadget (black lights, halogen lights, etc.) is employed, along with evaluators who possess the highest degree of certification/expertise possible. All cards submitted to this company are holdered with their trademarked "passes alteration examination" seal. These cards then hit the market. My guess is they (especially those coming from issues with a suspected high degree of alteration (e.g., T206's)) would sell for a not insignificant premium over such cards in "conventional" slabs. Should this happen then market forces will probably over time result in (1) "the crap that has already been holdered" and (2) not known/suspected by their owners to be altered to be re-examined.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Corey,

That is exactly what I suggested and what Kevin's business idea is--I agree with you on the likely impact too.

Jim

"If anyone else wants to (continue to) attack anyone on this board personally, including me, then they will be banned"--Leon Lucky

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Posted By: T206Collector

...3rd party grading of 3rd party graders.

I think this already exists to some degree. Most of my best T206 cards were once in PSA holders and now are in SGC holders. When I have sold them, I can show scans of how they have been in both holders.

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Posted By: MikeU

"Your game plan for cleaning up the hobby is Jim Crandell exposes himself to financial loss by havving his cards looked at."

I disagree with on the risk part. For many reasons, there is no conceivable way that Joe would not pay you for your bad cards. It would be a win-win. Find out what percent is really bad, educate the public on the findings, get paid for bad cards and get a piece of mind on your collection.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jim,

I agree with you on this. The whole point of the third party grading service is to provide an insurance policy when the card is sealed in their holder.

Why would you or anyone ever do anything to damage or lessen the insurance policy that comes with your 25,000 cards?

No offense to Kevin but if PSA says a card is good and Kevin says its bad, I think PSA wins the argument.

Kevin seems extremely knowledgable but until he starts his own company and brands his product, it is sort of irrelvant what he or anybody else says. The cards are encapsulated with the PSA brand and will be valued as PSA graded cards, even if the card has a problem inside of the holder.

Lastly, black-lighting is not an exact science, many cards will glow under a black-light that are totally original. The reason is if a card was taken out of an album there can be leftover residue remaining on the card.

CB

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, in defense of Mike's idea, don't you think PSA would buy back the cards that you can prove are altered? I can't imagine the hit they would take if they ignored you, who is a PSA HOF member. His idea is not as crazy as it sounds. I agree with you that your interest in cleaning up the grading companies should not cost you a dime -- but perhaps PSA would do the right thing by you. Might not be a bad idea to at least inquire of them about this plan.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

""3rd party grading of 3rd party graders. I think this already exists to some degree. Most of my best T206 cards were once in PSA holders and now are in SGC holders. When I have sold them, I can show scans of how they have been in both holders.""



Will it look like this?





which happens to fall into category 1 & 2 & 1 again....or is it 2 & 1 & .5?





"No offense to Kevin but if PSA says a card is good and Kevin says its bad, I think PSA wins the argument."

None taken. That is a true statement.

Actually the idea for a business such as this came from Jim and fueled some other top-level collectors.





Kevin

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Posted By: MikeU

"Lastly, black-lighting is not an exact science, many cards will glow under a black-light that are totally original. The reason is if a card was taken out of an album there can be leftover residue remaining on the card."

True to some extent, but the majority of glowing is not simply speckled or bloched glowing on the back of the card from album residue. Even in those cases, it may be glue from rebacking and not album reminents. In any case, you can pretty easily tell from the texture of the card where you stand. When you have glowing front borders or glowing jagged corners, you have a clarly altered card.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

I agree that SGC probably comes closest to such a company, but I suspect even they could improve in regard to equipment as well as grader expertise (not to say their graders aren't top notch, only that there are probably things about card alteration detection that they could still learn). But, and here is a key aspect, whether it is an existant company or one yet to be formed, it is critical that its holder possess such an identifying characteristic/seal that any dummy (e.g., yours truly) would know and respect the meaning of. I suspect most/many collectors could not look at a SGC/PSA/GAI holder and know when the card was slabbed and whether at the time of slabbing the company had state-of-the-art expertise in card alteration methodology.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Mike,

Well said. My point was that asking a person unfamilar with blacklighting to simply look for areas that glow could be problematic.

CB

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Posted By: MikeU

"Why would you or anyone ever do anything to damage or lessen the insurance policy that comes with your 25,000 cards?"

Third party inspections are not damagin or lessening to your insurance policy. In fact, they give you confidence and knowledge on whether or not you need to enforce your insurance policy.

"No offense to Kevin but if PSA says a card is good and Kevin says its bad, I think PSA wins the argument."

This is exactly why Kevin would do this work for free. He is trying to gain credibiliy. If he can show PSA their errors, then he should gain their respect and maybe even land a gig. If they do not, he may be able to impress some other grading company or auction house to employ his services just through his work on this examination.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Mike and Jeff,

Good point...if PSA were to reimburse me....maybe we could e-mail off line on your ideas on how I would approach them on this.

Charlie,

Yes but I hear more and more stories about altered cards getting through and I think some are beginning to lose a bit of confidence.

Thanks--you guys are the kind of posters that make the Board worthwhile.

Jim

"If anyone else wants to (continue to) attack anyone on this board personally, including me, then they will be banned"--Leon Luckey

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Mike,

Good points again. But, in order to make the most accurate assesment the cards must be cracked out. SGC will rarely cross cards without cracking them out first. Many things cannot be seen in the holder that can only be seen at extreme angles out of the holder.

Breaking his cards out for Kevin to examine would offer little insurance.

CB

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jim,

I am not sure I want to attempt to defend PSA on this board but 2007 has been a difficult year to get any meaningful card graded with PSA. Sure, Kevin can remove a stain on a 33 Goudey card that smells like goo gone and get it passed the graders. But, PSA has made huge improvements in detecting alteration in PSA 8 or better.

PSA cannot go back and regrade all 8,000,000 cards, all they can do is improve their abilities to detect alterations going forward. And, in my opinion, they have been succesful most recently. They should also stand behind the product and buyback cards that look bad in the holder. Not sure that they can and or will buyback every example but I have first hand knowledge that they do it all the time.

Lastly, the marketplace is getting smarter and if a card looks bad in a PSA holder or any graded card holder the card will suffer at auction. For example, at the National in Mastro's auction the T205 Cobb PSA 8, looked trimmed in the holder and went for a fraction of what it would have gone for if it had not looked trimmed. The old adage buy the card and not the holder is outdated. I would buy the card and the holder. Make an evaluation of both the company assigning grade and make sure the card does not look altered in the holder and resembles the grade if not looks undergraded.

CB