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#301
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About soaking cards
Posted By: Bob
Aw crap, since I started this thread, I deserve to be post #300 |
#302
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About soaking cards
Posted By: John S
Jim, |
#303
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About soaking cards
Posted By: Dan Kravitz
What a ridiculous topic! |
#304
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About soaking cards
Posted By: barrysloate
This is evolving into the same class warfare that the board always ends up in. Personalities aside, and we clearly have serious clashes in that department, this discussion still revolves around most dollars spent vs. what constitutes the typical collector. If collector A has spent $1 million on PSA-8 cards, and 50 collectors spend $10,000 each on lower grade cards, the PSA-8 collector has outspent the rest of the market by 2 to 1, yet represents only 2% of the group. So it is still unclear how we define "backbone" of the hobby- who is spending the most or who is best represented? I would define "backbone" as which group has the greatest number of collectors. For me, the PSA-8 crowd is just an elite niche of the market. Again, there is no right or wrong way to collect. We just have not satisfactorily defined which group best represents the hobby. We know an auction house like Mastro is dominated by PSA-8 cards, but their whole business model is to offer the finest cards to the best heeled group out there. They recently sold a high grade E93 set for over 300K. Would we define that as a typical hobby transaction? Hardly. |
#305
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About soaking cards
Posted By: Anonymous
JohnS, |
#306
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About soaking cards
Posted By: JimCrandell
Barry, |
#307
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About soaking cards
Posted By: warshawlaw
The 8-9-10 cards will become the biggest segment of the hobby...BECAUSE THEY ARE MAKING THEM AS FAST AS THEY CAN CRANK THEM OUT!!! |
#308
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About soaking cards
Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
Perhaps we should take a poll. Using the most extreme definition of alteration to include even things many or even most folks would consider acceptable (erasing pencil, soaking out of scrapbooks, flattening corner flips), what percentage of PSA 8 pre-WW II cards do you think have been "altered" in some way shape or form. |
#309
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About soaking cards
Posted By: T206Collector
...55% -70% -- a moderate amount of trimming (which is difficult to detect) and a significant amount of soaking (which is impossible to detect). |
#310
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About soaking cards
Posted By: Al C.risafulli
Using the most extreme definition of "altering", which would include soaking out of a scrapbook or similar gunk removal, I go under the assumption that they all are, unless there's iron-clad provenance or a unique story behind them (like with the Tango Eggs). |
#311
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About soaking cards
Posted By: Will
After devoting so much time to reading this thread, I had to say something... |
#312
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About soaking cards
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
I think Peter is on to something: however, why not have a poll on what we consider altering to be? |
#313
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About soaking cards
Posted By: T206Collector
There were two alteration polls in August -- one centered on soaking/erasing; the other on flatening/removing creases. I would prefer to see the opinions of the board on the poll suggested by Peter. |
#314
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About soaking cards
Posted By: barrysloate
Peter's poll is provocative in theory; the problem is everybody who participates would be guessing. It would end up being a very unscientific poll, with numbers all over the place. It would be mostly hearsay without much evidence. |
#315
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About soaking cards
Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
Life would be no fun without a little hearsay and speculation. Obviously the point is not to come up with a definitive answer, just to see what people think would itself be interesting I think. |
#316
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About soaking cards
Posted By: barrysloate
The answers would be all over the board, from none, to 2% to 10% to 40%..and nobody would really know. My guess would be about 5%, or perhaps a little more. And my answer is based on absolutely nothing. |
#317
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About soaking cards
Posted By: JimCrandell
I met with a leading dealer in the Northeast yesterday who told me he thought that for both graded and ungraded he thought a far higher percent of low grade and mid-grade cards were altered than high grade and that the card doctors were doing all sorts of stuff to the low-mid grade cards as it was tougher to detect. |
#318
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About soaking cards
Posted By: T206Collector
Yeah, all those creased VG 3's are totally altered. Are you that naive? Though, by your definition, the PSA 1's with paper loss on the back from scrap book removal are technically "altered." |
#319
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About soaking cards
Posted By: JimCrandell
Paul, |
#320
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About soaking cards
Posted By: T206Collector
...ask him how to improve a 3 to a 5? Because I'd wager there is no way to do that in an undetectable fashion. And remember, card soaking is not about improving a 6 to an 8 -- it is about cleaning off a back to move from a 1 to an 8. And it is just as easy to move from a 1 to an 8 as it is to move from a 1 to a 5. I just don't have any concern about that particular movement. |
#321
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About soaking cards
Posted By: JimCrandell
Microtrimming/reshaping--some of the same things you would to to try to get a card to an 8. |
#322
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About soaking cards
Posted By: T206Collector
Your premise is wrong. Microtrimming/reshaping may be something that you would do to try to get a 5 or 6 to an 8, but below 5's have creases or wrinkles that make microtrimming/reshaping a strategy without a goal. That is, some of my best 1's have sharp corners and edges, but it's the paper loss or creases or unerasable ink that keep them in those holders. All the microtrimming/reshaping isn't going to help. |
#323
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About soaking cards
Posted By: JimCrandell
Paul, |
#324
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About soaking cards
Posted By: T206Collector
...want to argue or are angry with you. But when I read comments in support of a theory that PSA 5's are more altered than PSA 8's it is impossible for me to sit on my hands. That theory has no explanable basis and the circumstantial evidence to the contrary is overwhelming. |
#325
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About soaking cards
Posted By: Tom Boblitt
but I'd clearly agree with T206 on this one.....the marginality between even a 6 and a 9 other than centering and some corner wear is such that it'd sure be a LOT easier to take a 6 to a 9 than a 1 to a 3. Especially if employing any type of trimming procedure. Pure numbers but I think the vast majority of collectors would agree. As Dennis Miller used to say....just my opinion, I could be wrong........ |
#326
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About soaking cards
Posted By: JK
I generally agree with Paul that more higher grade cards are altered than lower grade. Common sense tells you so. As for this dealer of Jim's being an expert - well, unless you are saying he alters cards, he is not an expert and is merely giving his biased opinion (as he was about to sell you high grade cards). That being said, I believe its a problem shared by all cards - just as microtrimming might increase a 6 to a 9, spooning out creases might very easily bump cards up from a 3 to a 4 or 5 (I know Ive got a number of sgc 40s that have sharp corners and could be 60s if not for a some nearly undetectable wrinkles - actually, in some cases, they are undetectable). |
#327
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About soaking cards
Posted By: Tom Boblitt
however....... |
#328
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About soaking cards
Posted By: Rhett Yeakley
I'm in agreement with Josh here. I don't care how big of a dealer you are, unless you are seeing the 3's being turned into a 5, his opinion is worth about as much as anyone elses here on the forum. Also, as a salesman, he is telling you exactly what you want to hear as you were purchasing 2 high grade high dollar cards from him. If you were the world's biggest buyer of PSA 5 cards, a smart salesman would tell you the exact opposite. |
#329
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About soaking cards
Posted By: JK
Tom, |
#330
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About soaking cards
Posted By: T206Collector
[I really dont care if my 3s, 4s and 5s have had wrinkles taken out of them, been soaked, had pencil erased from them or had a corner laid down. What would bother me is if my low/mid grade cards were recolored, rebacked, rebuilt, trimmed, etc (ie major alterations).] |
#331
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About soaking cards
Posted By: E, Daniel
It sounds as though in your last post removing wrinkles/creases in not a big deal in your mind for the cards you collect...... |
#332
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About soaking cards
Posted By: JimCrandell
He was apparently talking about the microtrimming/reshaping of low-mid grade cards--to make corners and edges look a lot bettet--apparently a lot more widespread than I believed. |
#333
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About soaking cards
Posted By: T206Collector
...but if you take a 5 with rounded corners and you trim them to sharp corners you get an 8. If you trim a 5 but leave the corners rounded, you're still stuck with a 5. |
#334
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About soaking cards
Posted By: T206Collector
Daniel, |
#335
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About soaking cards
Posted By: E, Daniel
so tell me your thoughts on the areas I posed regarding re-backing and trimming, and where people might not be able to make the same argument regarding simply returning a card to its intended design, especially if they haven't added anything to the card (unlike re-coloring, building up corners, etc.)? What makes re-backing and trimming such untouchable words in this hobby? |
#336
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About soaking cards
Posted By: T206Collector
...that mis-states the issue. It's not about returning it to the original "design," it's about restoring the card -- the actual piece of cardboard that came out of the cigarette pack -- to its original condition. Trimming an edge off or rebacking it with another card do not restore the card -- they fundamentally change its composition. The reason soaking is fine is because it removes gunk from the card. |
#337
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About soaking cards
Posted By: E, Daniel
Paul, in my mind trimming means removing some of the existing card, and does not change the composition of the card - there is merely less of it afterwards. In the same way, wear and rubbing of corners that results in corners being so rounded there is literally missing paper where once there were corners, does not mean the composition of the card has changed, just less remains. |
#338
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About soaking cards
Posted By: T206Collector
The argument that trimming a card is the functional equivalent of corner wear is absurd and really does not deserve much attention. One is the intentional destruction of the original composition of the card, the other is the normal wear and tear inherent in things old. It's the difference between amputation and a skinned elbow. |
#339
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About soaking cards
Posted By: E, Daniel
The complete disdain with which you address my points of interest result in exactly the same feelings I have towards anything you may ask of me. |
#340
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About soaking cards
Posted By: T206Collector
...is that I don't think you seriously believe corner rounding is the same as trimming so (a) if you don't, then why does anyone have to explain it to you, and (b) if you do, then you have a lot of altered cards in your collection and soaking is the least of your troubles. |
#341
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About soaking cards
Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
Paul you have much more patience than I would. |
#342
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About soaking cards
Posted By: T206Collector
I think it's important to try to be patient with people on this Board, especially those that have different opinions from you. I think Daniel has some good ideas and is trying to have a reasonable debate about this issue. |
#343
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About soaking cards
Posted By: JK
Hey Daniel, |
#344
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About soaking cards
Posted By: E, Daniel
As you might imagine, I wasn't really saying that either trimming or re-backing was ok by me, or the same as the other methods mentioned, but wanted to see where and how you drew the line by making the argument or comparison.....that if you can physically change what a card looks like by doing the more accepted alterations/restorations, what exactly in your mind was stopping you from altering the physical characteristics by trimming and re-backing.....I think its probably simple in that the latter just seems wrong and 'way over the top' to you, while soaking/erasing etc. don't. I was really only looking for a more fleshed out explanation of what you were thinking as you made those decisions. |
#345
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About soaking cards
Posted By: Glyn Parson
If low grade cards are becoming a less and less important part of the hobby then why are many of the large auction houses that used to only carry psa 8 or better carrying many lower grade E and T cards along with other tougher issues even if they are in "collector" grade. I believe the statement Jim made may be accurate in certain segments of the hobby but not in the entire hobby like that statement came across. |
#346
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About soaking cards
Posted By: ballajurra
This is in response to a post 9 December 2007. |
#347
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About soaking cards
Posted By: Anonymous
I understand this is the post war forum, but do you think this card would be a good candidate for soaking? |
#348
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About soaking cards
Posted By: Steve
I'm no Saucier, but I would teach a common beater to swim before drowning the Mick. As it is, it appears vg-ex. |
#349
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About soaking cards
Posted By: Mark
I'm no expert on this procedure either... but I do recall hearing that Tobacco/Caramel Cards (with litho images) respond much better to soaking than glossy modern cards with photographic images. |
#350
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About soaking cards
Posted By: Mark
Just wanted to add something regarding the Mantle Card above... |
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