Mastro and Psa

[Archive]

Posted By: JK

Joe,

Im not saying anything negative about Charlie - Ive dealt with Charlie many times and have always found him to be honest and upfront when answering any questions Ive had about cards. The card referenced above was altered by Mastro. Charlie had nothing to do with that card. I read his argument in the posts above as more generic - i.e. what's acceptable, whats not.

[Archive]

Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Shelly,

I am sure you are a great guy. All felons are not bad guys and alot make great recoveries. But to try and say that erasing pencil from the back of a baseball card is commensurate with forging autos and or whatever it was you got indicted for is not accurate.

I take you at your word that you are geniune in attempting to help the hobby. Your information to that end will be gladly received here.

CB

[Archive]

Posted By: Josh Adams

JK,

I agree with you about the pencil mark. Also, if some gunk were removed from the back, it wouldn't really bother me all that much. But bleach, or other foreign substances added to a card in order to make it look better is cause for concern. At least that's my opinion.

I think a big problem with this whole "alteration" issue is the lack of standards and guidelines for what constitutes an alteration, what is acceptable, and what isn't. Everyone has their own opinion.

[Archive]

Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Josh,

Thanks for the kind words.

Joe,

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good diatribe.

CB

[Archive]

Posted By: shelly jaffe

Charlie if you make it known what you did to the card you are correct. If you dont state that the card is altered and you recived more money because of that you are wrong.

[Archive]

Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Shelly,

That is your opinion right?

CB

[Archive]

Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Shelly,

Forging signatures and pencil removal cannot be deemed congruent deceptive practicises?

CB

[Archive]

Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Shelly,

Please provide legal precedent or law that states removing pencil from a baseball card is fraud. Or please change your stance because I can cite you many instances regarding forgery.

CB

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Shelly, what Charlie and others of his mind set don't get, or won't admit to, is that if they did admit to erasing pen/pencil or other "acceptable" alterations that it would negatively impact the final sales prices. If it really was acceptable and no one really cared, then this information would be offered in the description. It's not because it's not widely accepted contrary to what others here would have you believe. I'll believe its a widely accepted practice when Mastro and other major auction houses mention this type of work in their descriptions.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

[Archive]

Posted By: shelly jaffe

You belive what you want. I know there are at least a dozen law suites out there that say you wrong. I also know that are things happening that might really surprise you in the next few months. Cheating is not subjective.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

The way they see it is:

If one shoots a person using dum dums ... That's unclean.
On the other hand, if they use regular 45 rounds ... That's OK.

The question for Charlie remains ... Did they use Water or Bleach?

[Archive]

Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Shelly,

Since you did not answer the question, I will take it as an affirmative.

CB

[Archive]

Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Joe,

In my opinion, bleach is not an acceptable way to remove a stain. Whomever is doing it.

CB

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

That you don't know what the Mr Clean Faction used to get rid of the stain. ... Is that right?

[Archive]

Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Joe,

Correct. Do you?

CB

[Archive]

Posted By: shelly jaffe

Charlie,In the court of law there are degrees as to what is and what is not. If and item is altered and sold with your knowledge and you don't tell the buyer you are guilty of a civil or criminal act.I know that there are lawyers on this site please correct me if I am wrong. All I am saying is that if you knowingly sell something for more money by changeing what that item is it is wrong.

[Archive]

Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Shelly,

I can see what you mean, your honor, he used a number 2 pencil eraser to erase R.H. on the back of an Old Judge. Under cross examination my lawyer would stipulate that the eraser in question was an artist gum eraser not a number 2 pencil.

CB

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

That has been a known to many, but to him, it's like breaking new ground.

Simply stated, Charlie has been on a soap box expounding the cleanliness of The Mr Clean Faction, when in fact, he knows nothing of their operation.

He really should be a used car dealer, wiping off droppings on the windshields.

Then again, birds of a feather stick together.
When you think about it ... Charlie is actually cleaning off his own droppings..............

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Shelly,

I understand you are an expert on card alterations. I would urge you to post on that subject on Scott and Jay's board where serious discussions are welcomed. Kevin Saucier who I consider to be a true expert on the subject now posts over there.

Jim

"If anyone else wants to (continue to) attack anyone on this board personally, including me they will be banned"--Leon Luckey.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave F

Interesting Crandell. Serious discussions aren't welcomed here huh?

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Letrs see if Asphaltman get get himself thrown off with another round of personal attacks????

[Archive]

Posted By: Chad

Dang, what the heck am I doing in this crappy place then? All you guys do is talk about punk rock and fight about where to have dinner. I'm taking my 1970 Topps jumbos and moving on.

--Chad

(kidding! I love you guys!)

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

a) WATER vs. BLEACH. On the issue of undisclosed erasures or water soaking gunk off, I take the same position as stated by someone (I forget who) above -- I draw a big line between water and bleach. But I disagree that there are no "standards and guidelines" for what constitutes an impermissible alteration. SGC has set forth those standards very clearly. In the event they begin not grading cards that have evidence of water soaking then I won't water soak my cards to get gunk off. As stated a zillion times on here before, SGC (and PSA, by the way) knows the practice -- water soaking -- they can detect it many times and still let it slide. Any time you see an SGC or PSA card encapsulated with glue residue on the reverse, there's your example of water removal. It was for a long time a universally accepted practice, old school collectors would drop albums in bathtubs filled with water and watch the cards rise to the surface. But water soaking has has recently come under fire on here by puritans who want to play a 100 year old game of musical chairs. If you want to change the standards, be my guest, but your beef is with the grading companies, not the collectors of raw cards. Again, SGC won't grade the bleached ones but will grade the formerly water soaked ones -- I agree with this stance and am not in favor of pushing for a change here.


b) LIES vs. OMISSIONS. It would be wrong to sell a card that you had soaked as "Never soaked card." That would be lying and, potentially, fraud. But I do not believe a seller has an affirmative obligation to say anything about a card when he sells it. You don't have to disclose creasing. You don't have to disclose corner damage. You don't even have to provide a scan. You want to provide the most information that will maximize your sale. And, more importantly, make your customer satisfied upon receipt of your card. I could sell water soaked cards on ebay all day without disclosing that fact and without upsetting any customers. Why? Because it is not like the card is worth any less as a result of the soaking. It is an undetectable alteration unless glue residue remains -- and if glue residue remains, well then that was evident in my scan, or I would disclose that fact in my listing. Again, deliver the card that you advertise and ensure it meets your buyer's expectations. That's just simple business.

Again, both of these issues are resolved, in my opinion, by reputable third party graders. Raw cards are caveat emptor.

And, for whatever it's worth, I have bought and sold probably close to 1,000 T206 cards on Net54 and ebay in the past 7 years. You know what? Not a single potential buyer once asked me whether I had soaked anything off the back of a card. I have also never asked a single seller whether he had soaked anything off the back of a card. Have I potentially lost sales from potential buyers on Net54 and ebay who know my proclivity towards a good water soaking? I suppose so. All I would say is if it is that much of a concern to you, go ahead and ask me whether I soaked the card in water or erased anything from it. I will tell you whether I had -- but I certainly won't be able to vouch for the card's previous owners since 1909.

[Archive]

Posted By: Petey

1. There will never be a consensus as to what is acceptable and what is not.
2. Even as to things that many would not be troubled by, e.g. erasure of light pencil marks, or soaking in water, there will rarely if ever be affirmative disclosure because SOMEONE will not want the card or will want it less and therefore such disclosure could affect the price. Does that make the nondisclosure fraud? Maybe. Depends. "Prolly" (I like that) a complex case by case question.
3. My best guess is that on an awful lot of cards, we have a lot more to worry about than erasure of light pencil marks.

[Archive]

Posted By: John

Jim,

Not sure if you saw my question or not? I understand if you didn't, just curious to your answer.

Thanks,

John

"Because Crandall, for all his pious purported discussion about cleaning up the hobby, was (and still seems to be) absolutely unwilling to donate even 1 of his precious 25,000 slabbed cards to be looked at, especially those that are probably altered."


"That's not exactly true. Although I don't claim to be an expert, many trust my opinion when it comes to identifying altered cards...Jim included. We have talked and in the not so distant future I will be inspecting several of his graded cards at no cost. "


If they turn out to be trimmed/altered will they be labeled and sold as such in the future?

Jim if you’re out there are you that committed to the issue of cleaning up the hobby…that you would take a bath on your very expensive purchases?

Just curious, that’s all.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

No plans to reholder my cards.

I looked at all 24,853 and I think they all look great.

I am still buying graded cards to complete my p[sa 8 and better sets.

I am still selling cards from sets that I don't believe I can complete in psa 8 or better when someone makes me an attractive offer.

Jim

"if anyone else wants to (continue to) attack anyone on this board personally, including me then they will be banned"--Leon Luckey

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- so not a single one of your 25,000 cards looks a little funky to you? That is an extraordinary percentage of unaltered cards. Are you being totally objective?

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

Totally--I have great cards.

Are you in Sag Harbor--if so how is the weather?--my wife and daughter are driving out.

Jim

"If anyone else wants to (continue to) attack anyone on the board personally, including me then they will be banned"--Leon Luckey

[Archive]

Posted By: paulstratton

Jim,

In no way am I trying to attack you personally, but how is that possible? Not 1 card in 25, 000? Either you are extremely lucky, or you should be the one who is giving lessons to others on what to look for, or both. Like Barry, I find that extraordinary(not trying to put words in Barry's mouth).

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- right now I wish I were in Sag Harbor, but we rented our house out for the year and the tenant's lease doesn't end until Oct 31.

But if anyone is listening to the news, there was a major hurricane in Brooklyn this morning, doing significant damage to some areas. Fortunately, we were spared.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joseph

Barry,

Hope none of your cards got soaked.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

No wet cards. Although we had a deluge early this morning, the hurricane was in another part of Brooklyn, but only 10-15 minutes from here. I didn't even know about it until somebody called me.

[Archive]

Posted By: Cobby33

Why would someone make a post on a non-serious-discussion Board? Wouldn't that make their post not serious? Hmmmmm......

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

Most subways not running, impossible to get a cab, our basement was flooded--now its back to 95 degrees--hopefully we will burn that ntl. gas for ac and get those miserable prices up!

Paul,

I'm just an expert an identifying alterations--giving up my wall street career to go into business with Kevin, Leon and Doug Allen.

Jim

"If anyone else wants to(continue to) attack anyone on this board personally, including me, then they will be banned"--Leon Luckey

[Archive]

Posted By: John

Jim,

I’m sure they all look great, but that wasn’t my question….this was.

If any of your high grade cards turned out to be altered in any way after Kevin’s inspection, would you re slab them as “AUTH” or sell them as is in their high grade holders?

Regards,

John

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

I wasn't aware that Kevin was inspecting my cards--let alone for free.

I guess first I would make the decision to go that route which I haven't.

If I do, would not plan to make my announcement through you--you haven't been very nice over the past year.

Jim

"If anyone else wants to (continue to) attack anyone on this board personally, including me, then they will be banned"--Leon Luckey

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave F

Jim...could you get rid of the stupid quote at the bottom of your messages. Its a wee bit childish.

And for the record...I didn't "attack you". Your the one that made the ridicilious comment about "the other board" being one for serious discussions while this one seemingly is not.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

No.

I am hoping that it inspires you to let loose with another personal attack that gets you booted off for good.

Jim

"If anyone else wants to (continue to) attack anyone on this board personally, including me, then they will be banned too"--Leon Luckey

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

Jim obviously wants to try to hide behind the threat of expelling people from the Board if they disagree with his opinion or stand up to his own personal attacks. Since Jim doesn't realize that he invites criticism with virtually everything he says, he believes that the challenges he has faced on the Board are unsolicited. He also thinks they are all "personal attacks," which, of course, they aren't.

I actually think it's kind of sad because it shows how affected he has been by the dialogues he has started; and that he is still totally unaware of how he could have possibly offended so many people championing what we all would agree is a positive cause.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Leon,

There is your first candidate for expulsion--a guy who cannot stand that mid-grade T206 are just as likely to be altered as high grade if not more and strikes back in a very nasty way when is suggested otherwise. I would suggest that the attacks he and the other three I mentioned have launched have been every bit as bad as the ones that Scott launched on you. If you are going to enforce the comment you made below then you should treat them equally.

Again, I would have no interest in what T206 says and would never comment on his views and he goes out of his way to attack me again and again....under a secret identity

T206--here is a suggestion--just don't respond to me--

Jim

"If anyone else (wants to)continue to attack anyone on the board personally, including me then they will be banned"--Leon Luckey



Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: John

"Because Crandall, for all his pious purported discussion about cleaning up the hobby, was (and still seems to be) absolutely unwilling to donate even 1 of his precious 25,000 slabbed cards to be looked at, especially those that are probably altered."


"That's not exactly true. Although I don't claim to be an expert, many trust my opinion when it comes to identifying altered cards...Jim included. We have talked and in the not so distant future I will be inspecting several of his graded cards at no cost. "


Jim,

Read above, Only asking the question because what Kevin posted, this is the third time I have posted this for the record. Not making anything up or attacking you I also asked the question with no attitude and very politely I may add.

Wish I could say the same for your reply, not asking you to make any announcements via me. For a guy who hates attacks you sure seem to want to throw down a lot. I’m trying to bury the hatchet with you Jim, regardless of how you feel I treated you in the past.

I just asked a question that’s all. If you feel other wise that’s your issue not mine.

Regards,

John

[Archive]

Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"I wasn't aware that Kevin was inspecting my cards--let alone for free.

I guess first I would make the decision to go that route which I haven't.

If I do, would not plan to make my announcement through you--you haven't been very nice over the past year.

Jim"




Give the guy a break.

Jim may not remember but we talked a few months ago and I offered to inspect some cards he selected at no cost. Whether or not he chooses to so is clearly up to him. Later I believe there was a of payment if he decided to send them but I made the initial offer and I stand by my word.

....and if I were him I wouldn't tell anyone the results either, especially here.

Keep in mind, for the most part, graded cards are not hack jobs. Unless there is something clearly obvious, I just give an opinion based on a gathering of small objective (and sometimes subjective) findings. Granted they have highly accurate opinions thus far.



Kevin

[Archive]

Posted By: JK

Personally, I have a feeling if people start getting banned for commenting on Jim C's posts, this board will lose a lot of participants. Frankly, not that I think its about to happen, but if anything said by T206 was deemed an attack and he were to get banned as requested by Jim, I'd leave as well. Of course, I didnt make Jim's list of N54 participants who make worthy contributions to this board, so I guess it would be no real loss.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I don't know that it's fair to expect Jim to take a bath on his altered cards just to make a point. The guy can want to do all that he can to clean up the hobby without having to hurt himself and his family financially, right? All we want is to ensure that the grading companies be able to spot altered cards and stop providing favors to their big clients and for the auction companies to stop altering cards, stop selling items owned by the very people that authenticate them (i.e., stop conflicts of interest), and to stop shill bidding. Is that asking all that much?

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

John,

"I'm trying to bury the hatchet with you Jim".

Great news--I am a forgiving kind of guy who can forgive almost anything and I forgive you for your previous nasty comments.

On your question, I tried to answer it. I was not aware that Kevin and I had reached an agreement to even have him look at my cards let alone for free so I cannot really comment on what I would do if he thought I had a card or two among the 24,983 that was altered.

Jim

"If anyone else wants to (continue to) attack anyone on this board personally, including me, then they will be banned"--Leon Luckey

[Archive]

Posted By: Chad

If I make fun of myself?

Leon has common sense, guys. I wouldn't hold him to something he said after Elkins repeatedly antagonized a response. It takes a lot to get banned from the board.

So...hear any good music lately? I jsut discovered this internet radio site called Pandora and I'm addicted. It's got Townes Van Zandt playing right now! The Pogues and Al Green are lined up after that. Sweet!

--Chad

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

...I attacked Jim or pushed the attacking envelope in my post above. I don't think I'll be getting expelled any time soon. I know the rules; I respect them and play by them.

I made no comments on this thread about T206 cards and their propensity to be altered at any grade level. And to the extent I ever made any such comments, I just suggested that it made more sense to trim a 5 with soft corners into an 8 with sharp corners, because a trimmed 3 with a crease would still be a 3. But then that's just common sense, isn't it?

If anyone has any interest in reading Jim's "comments on [my] views" feel free to search either "armpit" or "backbone" in the Search function of this Board and read along from December of 2006, starting with the "About Soaking Cards" thread. It explains a lot of the background here.

And, finally, my identity is hardly secret to Jim or most others on here. Jim and I have exchanged several private e-mails in the past.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff,

I really think those who are saying this are just trying to get under my skin--sort of "you want to do the right thing for the hobby great--put your children's education at risk to show you really mean it.

Kevin,

Thanks--you are a true asset to the hobby--obviously if I go that route it would be with you. Some people have a huge vested interest with the status quo. This kind of stuff is why I urged you if you have something serious to say, say it on Scott's and Jay's board where this kind of stuff never happens--never.

JK,

There is a difference between commenting and personal attacks--I would suggest you look back and look at what some of them have said...and I never sead you didn't make a worthwhile contribution to the board--in fact, I think you do.

Jim

"If anyone else wants to (continue to) attack anyone on this board personally, including me, then they will be banned--Leon Luckey.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

T206,

Really--I don't know who you are--you can tell the world who you really are?

Jim

"If anyone else wants to (continue to) attack anyone on this board personally, including me then they will be banned"--Leon Luckey

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

...is Paul. You can feel free to call me Paul instead of T206Collector if you like. Doesn't bother me either way.