Is the Grading System Broken?

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Barry,

Yes, dealers get bumps. And the biggest mutual funds get the breaking news the fastest because of their commmison dollars. But once again, not every card that a dealer submitts is graded favorably. Some of the largest transactions in the hobby are dealers buying from other dealers, therefore there must be some meat left on the bone. And once again, the best collectors and dealers will be decided, based upon their ability to ferret out deals (in this case over-graded or under-graded cards). No buddy, dealers included, force collectors or dealers to buy overgraded cards. If you are looking to buy cards at a discount to SMR you might be able to do so in tough issues by buying overgraded cards. It makes more sense to pay over SMR for an under graded card with eye-appeal of two grades higher. Finding those cards is what the hobby is all about.

Many dealers and collectors do not submit under their own name. I perosonally have submitted cards for collectors and the results have varied quite a bit. Besides, a bump that is not-warranted is not always a good thing. I have seen many PSA 5's go for more money than PSA 7's of the same card because of the eye-appeal of the lesser grade and the converse of the higher grade. An example would be a 1941 Play Ball Ted Williams dead-centered in a PSA 5 with sharp corners but with a small or hidden technical problem will out sell the same card graded a PSA 7 but the centering is 75/35 or maybe slightly rounded corners etc. In this case, the latter card would sell for about the same money in a PSA 6 or 7, so the bump might not help that much.

Also, if you sell cards under your own name and consistently the cards you sell look overgraded your prices will suffer and will cancel out any favorable bumps you might receive.

CB

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm misunderstanding something. What does selling cards under your own name have to do with getting favorable bumps when you submit? That was my question. It's not about what cards one sells, I want to know do big dealers have any influence over the grading companies when they submit cards? I am only an occasional submitter for the record, as most of the material I purchase or have consigned to me is already graded.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Charlie, just for the record, if Fidelity gets market news faster than the average investor, someone is going to jail if caught leaking this info.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Barry,

Selling under your own name has nothing to do with getting bumps or the lack thereof. The point is that bumps will not do you any measurable good as a dealer if your cards look consistantly overgraded.

In my opinion, large dealers do not have control over grading companies but their submission volume may give them the benifit of the doubt on close cards some of the time. Again, it doesn't help the grading service or the larger submitter to have a ton of overgraded cards in their holders. For example, 55 Bowmans graded by GAI. Each submission no matter who submits it will have some favorable and some not so favorable close calls on cards that are tweeners. It is the job of the collectors and dealers to ferret out the opportunities amongst the many cards that are put up for auction.

CB

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jeff,

Information streams faster to the highest paying commisson firms. We are not talking about inside information that would violate Reg.FD. But, there is a lot of useful information that makes its way in a more timely fashion to firms like SAC capital.

CB

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Posted By: barrysloate

Charlie- I see the confusion. I was talking about sending raw cards in to be graded, and you refer to cards already graded that are looking to get bumped. And I agree, if you send them a pile of weak material you aren't going to get that bump.

But this leads to another point, and call me naive if you wish: if the whole game is just submitting the same card again and again until you finally get the bump you want, then I will refer you to the title of this thread: The grading system is broken and needs fixing.

We may respectfully disagree on this point, but that is the way I feel about it. Is grading a science, or is it a game of chance?

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Now the newbie dealers are comparing the more experienced dealers with the johnny come lately dealers that totally depend on a third party ... God forbid if the slab is mislabeled.
The experienced dealers have forgotten more about the feel, touch, and smell of pre war sets, than the newbies ever hope to learn. ... We're not talking Topps and Fleer's here.

Why is it that I get the feeling that we're now talking to the predominately post war crowd?

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Posted By: Anonymous

"have been telling Mike Baker, who I believe is the best (no offense to the guys at SGC because they are right there with Baker) to put his name on each GAI flip that he grades. A personal Mike Baker pedigree service. I think those cards would command a premimum or in GAI's case at least SMR."



Damn, I told him exactly the same thing. Personally I would spend at least double to have a Baker pedigree.

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Posted By: jay wolt

"Personally I would spend at least double to have a Baker pedigree."

No offense Kevin but I think that's crazy.
If a collector buys a VG T206 HOFer that's GAI, PSA or SGC slabbed
for $150 and it meets their criteria of a VG card and is slabbed &
protected why would a "Baker pedigree" make it worth any more let
alone double?
It should be graded right when the grading company slabs it.
Mike grades a ton of GAI cards so in essence they have the pedigree
its their label and he is the head grader.

Kevin hope all is well, its been awhile...jay

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Posted By: Wesley

I don't think Kevin meant he would spend double for the card. I think he meant he is willing to spend more on grading fees to have Mike Baker grade it.

Personally I would not spend $30 for Baker to grade when it normally costs $15. Heck, I still wait for $6 specials before I send in my submissions, and I think that is how the majority of collectors think. Good luck with the extra charges.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Hi Jay! Yes, it's been some time. No need to be a stranger.

I'm not saying they would be worth double. IMO and for my personal collection I would feel more secure knowing he personally graded them. I would consider paying double for that grading service..same for Reza etc. I'm just guessing others might feel the same.


Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: jay wolt

I think the grading companies get the majority correct.
I have a lot of slabbed PSA/SGC/GAI cards and alot of ungraded cards
as well and the only problems I tend to encounter is an error on the flip
for a wrong series, wrong card #, wrong player listed or a misspelled name.
And all 3 companies will fix these errors at their expense.
To read some of these threads lately one may get the impression that
the slabbed cards are almost ready for extinction.

I hope all of the graders for all the companies improve to keep up
w/ the card doctors and beat them at their game.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

The residents of La La Land, are just finding out that the system has been broken for a long, long time.

WHERE IS PAUL REVEIRE WHEN YOU NEED HIM?

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Posted By: Jeff Prillaman

Paul Revere? I'm sure you meant to say Israel Bissel?

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Let's get the facts right...........

He was however, the perfect pawn, or tool for PSA..........

*
*

Who the hell is Israel Bissel?

Is he ha bissel like Paul Reviere???

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Posted By: Ed

He was the complete-game "redcoats are coming".

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Posted By: jay behrens

Joe, Copeland did create this monster. Because he was willing to pay outlandish prices for high grade material, all the con men and everyone else looking to make a quick buck started learning how trim cards and rebuild corners so they could sell these cards to him or his agents.

All of this lead to PSA coming on the scene to give the illusion that you are buying unaltered cards and the current mess we have.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

PSA had their Patsie, and mark in Copeland, BUT.
It was PSA that allowed all the crap to get through.

They had the pidgeon, they just kept feeding him.
After they got through with the MARK, and he stopped buying, the friend of the people, AKA PSA, kept on selling to the "Whom it may concern crowd ... AKA The Lazy Lemmings. ... they didn't care, as long as someone else did the grading for them.

Stay loose.
Joe

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Gee Joe, that's quite a broad brush with which you paint. I know lots of folks who by graded cards for the card, and not the grade. But I do respect your point of view.


Josh

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Unfortunately, the broad brush that they used, affected other people, other than investors ... It was their brush, not mine.

You guys are just begining to hear the tip of the iceberg.

Josh, what really surprises me, is a couple of the old timers saying that this crap is surprising them.

Where have they been ... in a time capsule?

All I know is that I went to the Chantilly show in Virginia this Friday and Saturday, and had a great time.
Picked up an e93 Tinker to fill a slot, from a new dealer from KC.
Found out that Brandy Cook has an internet sports talk station in KC.
Got a hold of Hank Thomas a dealer (Walter Johnson's grandson).
And pulled in some baseball aficionados.
We all got to talkin about a baseball match between Walter Johnson and Joe Wood's back in 1912.

Josh, it doesn't get any better than that ... and THAT's what it's all about.

Have a geat one!

Joe Pelaez

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Posted By: Glyn Parson

This was linked over at the PSA message boards and went poof.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Can you blame them? How many "tip of the iceberg" comments do we all have to suffer through from those that have no interest in graded cards? It is amazing how grading has negatively affected some peoples lives.

If you plan on sleeping with your raw cards next to your pillow, avoid third-party graded cards!

If you plan on re-selling your holy pieces of cardboard anytime in the future, third-party grading is the way to go!

If you think every person in this hobby/business is a "crook" and or only obessed by the all mighty dollar, the Star Trek conventions are losing numbers by the hundreds and they would love to add new members. But I here the "Clingon's" are a corrupt group, FYI.

CB

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Charlie,

Honest question.

If you took the top 100 sports card dealers in the country in terms of dollar value of sportscards sold, what percentage do you think either would trim their cards or send them out to a specialist for microtrimming/reshaping?

Jim

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jim,

A Very low percentage! The people doing the trimming are not holding themselves out as dealers. If a person does not represent his own cards for sale, it's possible they have sometihng to hide. Otherwise, why would they leave the 17.5% or 20% on the table (consignors fee), when they can sell the cards themselves on ebay, their own auction retail etc... There are alot of legitimate reasons to give cards to auction houses. But, if you are dealer and your main source of selling is through other people, that should raise some red flags.

It is a bad sign when a person only buys and never sells. Selling is the key. Those that sell would seem to be less likely to knowingly represent trimmed cards. The cavaet being, selling in person at a show from behind a table does not count. If you make a sale on ebay, on the internet etc.. there is a record, scan, price history etc.. Not so at shows. These are generalizations so I do not want to condemn a weekend warrior who only does shows with no on-line presense. But, I think the theory has a lot of validity.

CB

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Posted By: JimCrandell

thanks Charlie--appreciate your thoughts.

Jim

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Posted By: Jason L

Charlie, thank you for your posts...I think your comments on volatility, competition, and margins have a great deal of merit, but it's important to add that while, yes, the marketplace needs various levels of meat left on the bone at different stages if it is to remain healthy, the REAL concern is the deliberate attempts to defraud and deceive...not that we all shouldn't be happy for the guy who gets a good deal now and again...-because your comments about human nature and the thrill of the chase are right on, of course! It's the evil-doers that we're concerned with...

Joe P.....WOW!....just, ya know,...wow

At least I can sleep at night knowing that my 1989 Fleer Rickey Henderson hasn't been tampered with! ...although the flip does have a PSA 90 on it, which I thought rather odd...

No, I would not pay more for a single grader's name on a company's flip, because that would just give me reason to wonder if the company was charging me 10x the price to put his name on it, when it's really just a "ghost signature" so to speak, and that having his name on it simply meant that the card was graded in the same room that his team is in...you see how fast that goes askew???? You see, 10x the price would simply cause someone in corporate to ask, "Umm, why can't we funnel more volume through that?"

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Is it really the "tip of the iceberg" when taking an affirmative opinion of the hobby/business is lonely and out of favor? I would argue that it feels more like the bottom of the iceberg!

Buying packs of baseball cards for a penny and 5 pennies is a boys/girls (for Joanne) game.

Navigating today's high-dollar sports collectibles market is a grown-up game.

Confusing the two might be part of the problem.



I do have a stock market background and if memory serves, bear markets rarely begin with a lot of negativity. Bear markets are usually born out of Pollyannaish behavior. It would seem we are a far cry from over-optimism in this hobby/business.

CB

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

"POOF July 10 2007, 11:25 AM


"Can you blame them? How many "tip of the iceberg" comments do we all have to suffer through from those that have no interest in graded cards? It is amazing how grading has negatively affected some peoples lives."

*
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What a lame, and feeble response.
Collectors that are able to grade for themselves, are not affected by the illusionary icebergs that you're hearing about from your own INVESTORS.
Study the Ostrich, and dig your head deeper.
--------------------------

If you plan on sleeping with your raw cards next to your pillow, avoid third-party graded cards!

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Sir, you are shooting off your Topps/Fleer mouth without knowing what the hell you're talking about.
You come over here from where ever you sell your cards in Po Dunk USA, and ass ume that just because some of the people on this board prefer to grade their own cards, because of their greater experience in collecting ... You ass sume that we hate graders.
Now let me do an imitation of one of your favorite presidents ... Read My Lips!

We don't hate third party graders. ... We Just Don't Need Them!
YOU DO.

Sir, this past Friday, I went to the Chantilly Va. show.
I own 2 T206 sets, my favorite the beater, only needs nine for total completion.
Then I have the mucho, mucho better set, that only needs one for total completion.
I brought the better set with me, because I wanted to show it to the 16 year old T206kid. ... I also brought along the Lipset Doyle.
The meeting never came about, but while I was showing it to a dealer, Roger Neufeldt a dealer from Norman, OK happen to pass by, he knew the set wasn't for sale, he just wanted to look at it.
His table wasn't far from where I was sitting, and he had about 3 or 4 people working his table, they all took turns in coming over to look at the set.
In my observation, of their observations,I could swear that I detected both male and female climax's (depending of course on the gendre.)

Charlie, I'll match that RAW (one card shy) T206 set, with any T206 set on the registry.

I lived 60 years in the heart of NYC.
Lived another 16 years in Virginia.
I know my cards, and I know them RAW.

Don't you ever knock a RAW card collector again.
-------------------------

If you plan on re-selling your holy pieces of cardboard anytime in the future, third-party grading is the way to go!

*
*

Of course I would.
I said I'm a RAW card collector.
I didn't say I was stupid. ................

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Joe,
Do you speak this way to everyone you encounter, or is this just your internet persona? You seem pretty standoffish and grumpy for a forum about baseball cards.

You said "don't ever knock a raw collector again." However, you have no problem knocking graded collectors. Respect goes both ways.

You seem like a guy with a great deal of knowledge about T206 cards. That's great, I love reading your substantive posts and I have learned alot.
But you just come across as so darned rude. I read the Ted Z thread about Joe Doyle, and you were not very cordial. What is there to get so worked up about? They are pieces of cardboard with pictures of old dead guys. Graded, ungraded, who cares?! And your implication that people who collect graded cards cannot assess the condition of a card for themselves is not very accurate. In fact, it is actually getting old. I respect your point of view, why not trying to respect the collecting habits of others?

Can't we all just get along?! This is supposed to be fun, right?!

Josh

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

"Don't you ever knock a RAW card collector again."


Best. Thread. Ever.

-Al

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

In reference to Ted's Joe Doyle thread.

Are you saying that it's all right to pass off unqualified misinformation as a FACT???

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Posted By: Josh Adams

That is what you take from my previous post?! Seriously?!
Wow. Just wow.

And no, I'm not saying that at all. But Ted was not passing around missinformation. If anything, Ted is one of the most accurate posters on here, and takes great care and pride in his posts on the population of various cards.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Just like you haven't the foggiest idea of the Joe Doyle Misinformation that I'm talking about.

How old are you?

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Posted By: Josh Adams

How is age relevant? Yes, yes, I get that you are older, wiser, have more experience, and so on. That's great, I respect all of that. But it's not the be all and end all.

I know exactly what you are talking about with the Doyle thread, I already mentioned that I read the entire thing.

Seriously, you just come across as a really grumpy guy. Why so aggrivated? This is a great place to learn about cards, with great people. We are all here for the same reason. As I said before, can't we all just get along?

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

How old are you Joe? You come across as a grumpy old man with a huge chip on his shoulder. Lighten up a little.

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Posted By: peter chao

Let me guess...Joe is old, a dinosaur as Adam put it.

Peter

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Day is done..........

Gone the sun .............

From the lakes, from the hills, from the sky's..........

All is well .............

Safely rest....................

God is nigh .......................

There you are, you feel better?
Don't believe everything you hear about third party discretions.
They're all made up.
None of it is happening, or has happened.
The fact that raw collectors don't need a third party ... is a lie.
The fact that slabheads need a third party to make their decision for them ... is a lie.
Everything is peaches and cream.
Just like our economy, and the surge in Iraq.
If I Could remember the 2nd stanza of TAPS, I would sing it for you.

One of the funniest play's that I once caught in London was:

No Sex Please!
We're British!

Don't ask me what that title have to do with this thread.
I guess the title, and play was one big joke.
Just like this imaginary topic of the grading system.

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Wow.


Edited to add: Good luck.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Josh,

Don't besmirch grumpy old men by comparing Joe to them.

CB

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

much better Joe! I'm proud of you. just remember, the next time you start to get angry, they're only BASEBALL CARDS.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Why is it that I have great difficulty believing that you're an attorney?

Let me guess, the title of your next post will be?

"What is your favorite color?"

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

When are you getting into Vintage cards?

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Joe,

Open mouth...Insert Foot!

CB

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

I have a very low tolerant point for BS'rs - ego's and wimps, not necessary in that order. ... and that will always get me in trouble.

I can dish it as well as take it.

Stay well,
Joe

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Prove it.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

I hope all your slabs are all right.

Mucha suerte amigo.

Joe

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

I do have one ungraded card...But I am sending it in to get slabbed!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Charlie, that kid looks wild. I'd test her juice boxes to see if there is juice in there or juice.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Good lookin kid..........

Can't be yours............

How dare you entomb it......................

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jeff,

I am in serious need of an athletic scholarship. She is dominating the boys so far.

CB