PWCC Statement on Recent Card Trimming Concerns

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by bounce

1 - purchased by Moser
2 - sent back in by Moser, either in a slab or raw (if raw, PWCC probably sent to PSA to be slabbed)
3 - assigns sticker

Really? He doesn't remember them?

Let me answer your question directly: NO, I do not think he remembers every card he handles. HOWEVER, I do think he remembers these quite well.

Believe what you want.

he's the smartest guy in the room, your not going to convince him. I think he would like to misremember at this point.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Springer voice: "And the lie detector determined.... that was a lie."

It's incredible. Every single thing he says is untrue, it seems. Again, it takes the diligence of collectors to call him out.

[swarmee]

The one true statement he made was that we will hold him responsible.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

The one true statement he made was that we will hold him responsible.

It's uncanny, in the very statement where he supposedly is trying to come clean about Moser, by disowning him, he misrepresents that he is no longer selling his cards, when he was trying to. You can't make this up.

[luciobar1980]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

You can tell with a quick glance the card has been soaked. The backs are never that washed out.

Hmmm.. is that not hindsight, honestly??

[Leon]

Card is gone, disregard my pm

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Thank you Peter. I’d appreciate if you keep posting links to cards removed from the auction and other outed cards on other forums - I am not a member of any other forums and I am a tech idiot, so I get all my news here and appreciate the links.

Meanwhile, the jacked T206 Jennings one hand AB 460, psa 6 is still live, which means they have not taken out all the bad eggs; I suspect they have removed a mere fraction so far.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Card is gone, disregard my pm

Sounds like a good business, Leon's Card Removal Service.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's uncanny, in the very statement where he supposedly is trying to come clean about Moser, by disowning him, he misrepresents that he is no longer selling his cards, when he was trying to. You can't make this up.

I reiterate:



Yes, I have a new favorite GIF and yes I am ten years old...WTF do you expect, I play with baseball cards.

[swarmee]

I think he's just rolling the dice at a casino, right? ;-)

[CrackaJackKid]

Everyone take a look at the 14 Cracker Jack James Scott in the current auction graded a PSA 5. The same exact card sold as a PSA 4 in January. Exact same card but now this PSA 5 has an above average 30% eye appeal? And on top of that the PSA 4 was graded awhile back when PSA was much more lenient. I highly doubt it’s just a grade bump from a review.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I reiterate:



Yes, I have a new favorite GIF and yes I am ten years old...WTF do you expect, I play with baseball cards.

Funny that, in all this talk about card doctors, your new favorite GIF is of an actual doctor.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sounds like a good business, Leon's Card Removal Service.

Leon, can you see if you can get all the remaining cards for this auction pulled? I bet there are 100's still in there? He seems to like you best.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It is illegal to use the mail or wires to commit fraud. Selling something while intentionally misrepresenting or concealing a material fact is fraud. Doing it repeatedly is a scheme to defraud. I can't do this over and over. If you think you know the law better than I do, that's fine, I really don't care at this point honestly.

The thing is, if PSA has graded a card as a "6", and I sell it as a "PSA 6", how have I done anything illegal?

If I know the card used to be a PSA 4, and it is now a PSA 6, how have I done anything illegal? Cards are routinely resubmitted and regraded constantly, with different grades; how do I determine which grade is correct? Answer is, I go by PSA's latest opinion.

Now, if I take a PSA 4 card, remove it from the holder, alter it, and then resubmit it to PSA, and PSA regrades it as a 6, how is that illegal? There is no law prohibiting it. PSA's "policy" is that certain alterations would preclude that card from getting a numerical grade; while some alterations are perfectly acceptable. That is only PSA's internal "policy" though; it is not codified in law. If it is now a PSA 6, and I sell it as such, that is not illegal.

Beckett grades "sheet-cut" cards. PSA doesn't. If I get an uncut sheet of 1979 Topps hockey, and cut the Gretzky out of it, and submit it to Beckett, they'll grade it. If I send it to PSA, they say in their "policy", that they won't grade it. But say in this instance, PSA grades the card as a 10; and I in turn, sell it as a PSA 10. How is that illegal? It is legal. Some collectors may not like it, but there is nothing "illegal" about it.

Steve

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Leon, can you see if you can get all the remaining cards for this auction pulled? I bet there are 100's still in there? He seems to like you best.

I doubt every single one is tainted. . If a card is obviously trimmed, or altered in a bad way, and is in a live auction, I will be happy to send Brent an email. He said in a post, some will believe him some won't, that he has counsel and is working with authorities. At least those are 2 good things. I am watching how it plays out just like everyone else. There is some great detective work going on. I am all for getting rid of fraud in the hobby. I hope those committing fraud are all held accountable. It only helps all of the good collectors/dealers/flippers/LCS owners, AH's etc..

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Leon

Card is gone, disregard my pm

Yes it is. Thank you, and I think another fellow board member helped as well. I am glad. One less bad one out there. I have no skin in that game (not my card and never was), but I strongly believe it used to sit in a psa 4 case and had brown crap under the right arm.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I had a high end card last year that I wanted to cross over to PSA. It was a SGC 30. PSA put it in a holder and marked it PSA 4.5.

Have I committed mail fraud if I don't disclose to to my buyer that the other leading card grading company offered me their professional opinion that the card is of a significantly lower quality than PSA?

Originally Posted by perezfan

A. There is no mention of intentional alteration in your scenario

B. Thus, it is not an "apples to apples" comparison. All it accomplishes is to further demonstrate PSA's ineptitude.

C. The SGC grader was having a bad day, was in a bad mood, and/or, thought he saw something that wasn't there, and graded the card lower than it deserved.

Steve

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Yes it is. Thank you, and I think another fellow board member helped as well. I am glad. One less bad one out there. I have no skin in that game (not my card and never was), but I strongly believe it used to sit in a psa 4 case and had brown crap under the right arm.

And I agree with Leon, many - in fact, most - of the cards in pwcc’s auction are probably 100% fine. Bid accordingly or boycott altogether, but I do fear collateral damage that comes from this.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Leon

I doubt every single one is tainted. . If a card is obviously trimmed, or altered in a bad way, and is in a live auction, I will be happy to send Brent an email. He said in a post, some will believe him some won't, that he has counsel and is working with authorities. At least those are 2 good things. I am watching how it plays out just like everyone else. There is some great detective work going on. I am all for getting rid of fraud in the hobby. I hope those committing fraud are all held accountable. It only helps all of the good collectors/dealers/flippers/LCS owners, AH's etc..

Not sure if it was this thread or a few of the others... it’s getting tough to keep track...

But Brent was asked multiple times which branch of law enforcement he is working with. Has he provided an answer? Is it the FBI, Local Police, State Police, Internet Police? Or perhaps it’s the branch of law enforcement OJ used to find the Real Killer. Perhaps we shouldn’t set our hopes too high.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Steve D

C. The SGC grader was having a bad day, was in a bad mood, and/or, thought he saw something that wasn't there, and graded the card lower than it deserved.

Steve

Well if that’s even plausible, then grading is even more senseless than originally thought.

[irv]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

Good that they did this, I was bidding on the Red Cobb.

Just curious but were you aware of what is currently going on with PWCC and PSA prior to bidding on that card or was it a card you knew was coming up long before this latest scandal came to light?

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Well if that’s even plausible, then grading is even more senseless than originally thought.

It is more than plausible.

Several years ago, I bought a raw 1910-era HOFer tobacco card from a very well known and respected member of these boards, and auction house owner. The seller is extremely knowledgeable about tobacco cards. I sent it in to PSA. They said it was "trimmed", and returned it to me unslabbed.

I contacted the seller, and he assured me the card was completely original and un-tampered with. I believed him. I checked the card myself, and found absolutely no signs of tampering.

A couple years later, I resubmitted the card to PSA, and they graded it a "4". I still have it.

Both Net54 and the CU message boards are full of posts from people who have submitted cards, only for them to come back to them either ungraded, or with low grades. The common term used is that the cards were looked at by the G.O.D., or "Grader of Death".

That is just considering cards that were graded multiple times by the same company. There are even more instances regarding cards originally graded by one company, and then sent to one of the other TPGs, where they received differing grades. That can simply be caused by differing standards between the two TPGs, but could also be related to an overly harsh first-look.

Steve

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I doubt every single one is tainted. . If a card is obviously trimmed, or altered in a bad way, and is in a live auction, I will be happy to send Brent an email. He said in a post, some will believe him some won't, that he has counsel and is working with authorities. At least those are 2 good things. I am watching how it plays out just like everyone else. There is some great detective work going on. I am all for getting rid of fraud in the hobby. I hope those committing fraud are all held accountable. It only helps all of the good collectors/dealers/flippers/LCS owners, AH's etc..

Respectfully, to me knowingly enabling a card doctor (even one) for a decade makes one a fraudster, and if one wants to get rid of fraud in the hobby, one should not associate or affiliate with fraudsters. Just my opinion.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by irv

Just curious but were you aware of what is currently going on with PWCC and PSA prior to bidding on that card or was it a card you knew was coming up long before this latest scandal came to light?

IMO NOBODY aware of the current climate can come bellyaching here or to PSA, if any PWCC card bid on from today forward is found to be altered, regardless of the grade assigned by a TPG.

[Snapolit1]

“We understand that we are responsible for our part in this mess.”

Damm. That’s a wonderful trial exhibit after Brent gets up and denies all responsibility. Trial lawyers dream about stuff like that.

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by irv

Just curious but were you aware of what is currently going on with PWCC and PSA prior to bidding on that card or was it a card you knew was coming up long before this latest scandal came to light?

I was an aware, as much as my fellow bidders. Also aware if something was wrong with the card, I’d return it...
(But I guess that carries a bit of default risk)

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

I was an aware, as much as my fellow bidders. Also aware if something was wrong with the card, I’d return it...
(But I guess that carries a bit of default risk)

I'm quoting this. Literally cant belive what I'm reading. You've been cheerleading for PWCC all along.

Stuff trumps all, and it couldnt happen to a better rube. As Bozo would say " juuuuust keeeeeep bidding"

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Or perhaps it’s the branch of law enforcement OJ used to find the Real Killer.

The dreaded branch of law enforcement known as the mirror.

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I'm quoting this. Literally cant belive what I'm reading. You've been cheerleading for PWCC all along.

Stuff trumps all, and it couldnt happen to a better rube. As Bozo would say " juuuuust keeeeeep bidding"

Cheerleading for a discount when there is blood on the streets...

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

Cheerleading for a discount when there is blood on the streets...

No, HIDING behind a return policy!

UN'beliveable

Sleep with dogs and you'll get fleas brutha

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

BO has a tweet from Brent claiming he just learned about Moser, as I read it.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=478

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

IMO NOBODY aware of the current climate can come bellyaching here or to PSA, if any PWCC card bid on from today forward is found to be altered, regardless of the grade assigned by a TPG.

Agreed. You don’t have to stop bidding, but don’t complain if you get bit.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

BO has a tweet from Brent claiming he just learned about Moser, as I read it.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=478

LOL. Right. Got it. Hopefully we're not all as stupid as he clearly thinks we are.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

LOL. Right. Got it. Hopefully we're not all as stupid as he clearly thinks we are.

He was made aware -- 15 years ago. He will say anything to anyone, depending on what he thinks they want to hear. It's incredible. No apparent restraint.

[70ToppsFanatic]

Apparently Mr Comsevation has issued another statement where he flips on Moser. Anybody have the link to it?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

LOL. Right. Got it. Hopefully we're not all as stupid as he clearly thinks we are.

So reminiscent of Doug Allen, to me. The same utter disregard for the intelligence of other people and same utter belief in his own infallibility.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

Apparently Mr Comsevation has issued another statement where he flips on Moser. Anybody have the link to it?

LOL I just posted it a few posts above you.

[swarmee]

Maybe he's going with a mental health defense?

[pgconboy]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Maybe he's going with a mental health defense?

That's a bold move swarmee, let's see if it pays off.

[swarmee]

I mean, why is he still talking? He still thinks he can convince people of his inward virtue.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOL I just posted it a few posts above you.

There may be one where PWCC says the name, not just “a consignor”

I’ve been looking for it but can’t find it either - May be part of a piece written by one of the news sources, or maybe it’s just not there

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bounce

There may be one where PWCC says the name, not just “a consignor”

I’ve been looking for it but can’t find it either - May be part of a piece written by one of the news sources, or maybe it’s just not there

First post in this thread.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by bounce

There may be one where PWCC says the name, not just “a consignor”

I’ve been looking for it but can’t find it either - May be part of a piece written by one of the news sources, or maybe it’s just not there

I think the SportsCardRadio article quotes Betsy saying "We know who Moser is." It's also posted in the first post in this thread by Brent himself. Written in the passive voice.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Steve D

The thing is, if PSA has graded a card as a "6", and I sell it as a "PSA 6", how have I done anything illegal?

If I know the card used to be a PSA 4, and it is now a PSA 6, how have I done anything illegal? Cards are routinely resubmitted and regraded constantly, with different grades; how do I determine which grade is correct? Answer is, I go by PSA's latest opinion.

Now, if I take a PSA 4 card, remove it from the holder, alter it, and then resubmit it to PSA, and PSA regrades it as a 6, how is that illegal? There is no law prohibiting it. PSA's "policy" is that certain alterations would preclude that card from getting a numerical grade; while some alterations are perfectly acceptable. That is only PSA's internal "policy" though; it is not codified in law. If it is now a PSA 6, and I sell it as such, that is not illegal.

Beckett grades "sheet-cut" cards. PSA doesn't. If I get an uncut sheet of 1979 Topps hockey, and cut the Gretzky out of it, and submit it to Beckett, they'll grade it. If I send it to PSA, they say in their "policy", that they won't grade it. But say in this instance, PSA grades the card as a 10; and I in turn, sell it as a PSA 10. How is that illegal? It is legal. Some collectors may not like it, but there is nothing "illegal" about it.

Steve

What is your opinion on money laundering.

[T206Collector]

Wow

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Wow

I believe that's the thread or whatever the right noun is where the post or whatever the right noun is from Brent, pretending only recently to have heard about Moser, appears.

[edjs]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred and will work to regain your trust.

You say this often. How many times does a person say they need to regain my trust? This is the way a junkie talks, because they are sick.

[Rhotchkiss]

This a crying shame. I don’t think there can be more than a handful of these out there, and now there is evidence that one of these beauties has been tainted. While no alteration is acceptable, some cards should be untouchable (pun intended)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Now working to regain your trust.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Leon

I doubt every single one is tainted. . If a card is obviously trimmed, or altered in a bad way, and is in a live auction, I will be happy to send Brent an email. He said in a post, some will believe him some won't, that he has counsel and is working with authorities. At least those are 2 good things. I am watching how it plays out just like everyone else. There is some great detective work going on. I am all for getting rid of fraud in the hobby. I hope those committing fraud are all held accountable. It only helps all of the good collectors/dealers/flippers/LCS owners, AH's etc..

Oh here we go...i’m having flashbacks to reagans statements during the iran contra affair.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

This a crying shame. I don’t think there can be more than a handful of these out there, and now there is evidence that one of these beauties has been tainted. While no alteration is acceptable, some cards should be untouchable (pun intended)

These people don't give a damn, Ryan, as long as they make a dollar.