The long awaited PSA half grade!

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Posted By: Brian

How much gas does it take to drive a truck from the east coast to cali?

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Posted By: Mike

Richard says,


Sound good to everyone??
No wonder PSA gets a D grade (only one grade higher than the lowest possible grade) from the Better Business Bureau.
--
I THINK YOU ARE FORGETTING THAT MAYBE THE BBB WILL CHANGE THEIR STANDARDS AND GIVE PSA AN F+

Several thoughts


1. Will they be giving the card a new # if it does crossover?

2. When buying an 8 at a show can you make sure it was graded after Feb 1, 2008 and therefore has no chance for a bump?

3. This new process is crappy for registry people but if you are an investor and sitting on stacks of psa 8's, it can't hurt to send in and get the bump.

4. I guess this will eliminate ebay sellers description of "this is a high end 8"

Mike

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

Could this card get a 5.5?

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Posted By: Fred C

Bruce,

Holy crap, are you serious? Do you own that card? I certainly wouldn't turn it in for a regrade. It'd have to come back in an AUT holder. That is too funny. Another PSA blunder. Wow, that is one of the worst botch jobs I've seen.

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

The Mayo is not my card, Fred. Just a scan I saved from an auction a few years ago. My understanding is that PSA bought the card back from the owner. Not their finest hour.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

When buying an 8 at a show can you make sure it was graded after Feb 1, 2008 and therefore has no chance for a bump?

Mike, many of us have sent individual cards to PSA for grading several times with different results each time. I would guess that just because a card didn't bump one time doesn't mean it wouldn't improve on a second or third submission.

Frank

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Ok, so now that we've squared away the little problem of the PSA half grade system, can we get back to saving the hobby?

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Posted By: Shawn Chambers

Good point, Frank, but now cards coming in for resubmit slabbed...how hard would it be for PSA to log the cert #'s for cards not getting a .5 bump on re-review...then when some other slab head tries to submit it again (unaware it has failed once) PSA can simply look up the cert and realize they have already viewed it and decided against the .5 bump. They won't even need graders for many transactions - just a clerk with access to their database. Most people won't pop out and submit, because they can't risk the dreaded "A"!!!

Oh well. Unless they are willing to designate with a new flip or holder that it has been reviewed and failed the .5 bump, they look bad in my eyes.

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Posted By: MARTY

Though I would add in my two cents..

I have no problem with a half grade system..just with the implementation.

PSA is a GRADING COMPANY..meaning that to be successful their grades must have integrity.

Let's be LOGICAL..

In any sampling involving hundreds of thousands of items there are going to be mistakes..guaranteed.

PSA states that re-submitted cards will only remain the same grade or be bumped up but will NOT be downgraded...Where is the integrity in that??...Please tell me...

I differentiate this from a smart financial move (if you think it is).

Integrity is a separate issue.

Isn't it clearly logical to KNOW that SOME cards have been overgraded ??

PSA is stating very clearly that they do not care about the integrity of their product. Just give me some money and maybe you will hit the jackpot and don't worry, if we see an overgraded card it's just between you and me.

Now I really believe in the American way and a company can do what it wants to...so go for the money and good luck.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Maybe the Brinks guys can stop off in Michigan and turn in some cans and bottles for the increased deposit refund.

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Posted By: Anthony S.

I think you need to use a mail truck for that, Cobby.

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Posted By: dennis

now would be the time to redesign the slab and give it the black insert like sgc and gai.....but i guess that this may be the next innovation after the 1/2 grades.

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Posted By: Joe D.

I really don't like the card swimming in the slab.

PSA should fix that!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dennis is right. Next time CLCT's stock needs a boost PSA will offer black inserts like SGC.

The interesting thing about Orlando's offer to Jim (and Jim surely knows this) is that he had to have Jim's cards in 8.5 holders. If Jim, Don Spence, Luchios, etc. told Joe to FU than many, many of the Registry sets stay the same and there would be less incentive for the remainder of Registry guys to have to pack up thousands of cards to PSA for resubmission. Which of course would be a disaster for Orlando who is obvioulsy trolling for additional revenue, trying to squeeze out the last cent he can from his Registry-fueled revenue stream. By giving Jim a great deal he gets the ball rolling and forced the other Registry guys to do the same (or Jim may have been following another of the big Registry guys' lead). I suspect if Jim and a few of the other guys got together and told Orlando FU, PSA would have agreed to do their resubmissions for free. Orlando needs the 100,000 or so graded 8s in all of those guys' collections to be resubmitted and I suspect he'd have done anything he had to in order for this to occur.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

While I haven't discussed the PSA half-grade bump up with Dave Forman or anybody else at SGC, from everything I know about him and his company, I would be shocked if they would want any part of this caper. Sure, they would love the business of putting in SGC slabs tens of thousands of PSA-slabbed cards. But not at the price of having to turn a blind eye to alterations. Unlke their competition, they're too smart to throw their reputation under a bus by putting the SGC seal of approval on cards they know or have the capability to know are altered. Going further, inasmuch as a number of PSA 8s are clearly overgraded, even if they are not altered, I can't see SGC certifying a card as an 8 if they don't think it meets that standard. So that too would kill it for a lot of potential crossover customers. Not only would SGC not agree to overlook alerations, they would also not be willing to slab a card an 8 unless they truly felt it was an 8.

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Posted By: Joe D.

I can send any PSA 8 card to SGC and say DO NOT CRACK unless you give me a grade of an 8 or better.

If they find that card is altered... they will send it back to me still in the PSA 8 slab.


How is that different than PSA offering the same 'DO NOT CRACK' on possible 1/2 point bumps?


IMO - there is no difference.

All PSA did was add 1/2 grade points to their scale - and will let you know if your card deserves a 1/2 point bump or not. People here want them to do something completely different. You should all work in congress.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

In my opinion there is an enormous difference. In the case you describe, SGC is not putting its seal of approval (via encapsulating the card in its slab) on the card. Returning it to you as you gave it to them (in the PSA slab) DOES NOT RETURN THE CARD TO CIRCULATION WITH ANY SGC CERTIFICATION ON THE SLAB THAT COLLECTORS COULD RELY ON TO THEIR DETRIMENT. Your example would be analogous if (1) SGC solicited submissions of PSA-graded cards with the promise they would at minimum, regardless if the card was overgraded or altered, holder the card in an SGC slab with the same grade as PSA gave it, or (2) you re-submitted an SGC-slabbed card to them and they returned it to you in its original slab even though upon re-examination they determined it to be altered or overgraded.

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Posted By: Joe D.

there is a point that cannot be missed....

and it is the reason both situations (SGC and PSA) are very much the same.

Whether I send a graded card to PSA or SGC or another grading company:
The card and the slab are mine. My property. Not SGCs. Not PSAs.

If I direct them not to touch my property unless they plan on giving me a grade bump - that is completely up to me (not the grading company).

Of course they may charge a fee for the service even if they do not change a grade. That is their option.


edit: to your point (2) - I believe in that case SGC cannot break out my card. They would look to buy it. Either grading company would look to buy the card or deny it is misgraded. One or the other.

edit: to your point (1) - I do not see that example as even remotely being close to the point I am making (probably my fault as not being clear). But that example is not the same as what I am saying.


edit once again: for the record - SGC is my preferred choice for grading. Its not even close.

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Posted By: Fred C

Corporations are always trying to improve the bottom line. I wonder if this move is being thought out because the bottom line is dropping because of far fewer submissions or because they just want to increase revenue? I'm just guessing that as the years go by there are going to be less and less submissions, especially when people have figured that the ownership of a psa10 rookie card that was mass produced is pure hype and stupidity.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

I have to respectfully disagree. The card and the plastic in the slab are yours; the grading company's name and associated good will are the grading company's. A grading company could have every legal right, depending what their terms were when they first holdered your card, upon re-submission and detection of an initial grading error and payment to you of appropriate damages, to either re-holder the card in an appropriate slab or take the card out of circulation altogether. IMO any grading company would be crazy not to have given itself such rights. The goodwill associated with its name is by far its most important asset, and such rights are crucial to protecting that goodwill.

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Posted By: Steve

What happens to the concept that graders do not know who's submission they are looking at? Brinks truck with thousands of slabs pulls up...........or even worse they do what some have mentioned and go to the slabs. I guess they could blind fold them on the way to the site.


Steve

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Steve, what a laugher to think that PSA suddenly now cares about integrity. If you think that Jim's cards are not getting special treatment I've got a bridge to sell you. For the same reason that Orlando gave Jim a special rate my guess is he will do all that he can to keep Jim happy -- to prevent flight to SGC. Jim, when you read this, let me know if there is any room on the Brinks truck for my PSA graded cards!

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Posted By: Anonymous

"corey January 19 2008, 10:29 AM


there is a point that cannot be missed....

and it is the reason both situations (SGC and PSA) are very much the same.

Whether I send a graded card to PSA or SGC or another grading company:
The card and the slab are mine. My property. Not SGCs. Not PSAs.

If I direct them not to touch my property unless they plan on giving me a grade bump - that is completely up to me (not the grading company).

Of course they may charge a fee for the service even if they do not change a grade. That is their option.


edit: to your point (2) - I believe in that case SGC cannot break out my card. They would look to buy it. Either grading company would look to buy the card or deny it is misgraded. One or the other.

edit: to your point (1) - I do not see that example as even remotely being close to the point I am making (probably my fault as not being clear). But that example is not the same as what I am saying.


edit once again: for the record - SGC is my preferred choice for grading. Its not even close."


The difference in your example is enormous. PSA official policy, in writing, is to turn a blind eye. SGC's written policy and SGC resubmits is as follows:

"Cards on regrade or reholder service: SGC has the right to reevaluate the card and assign a newly established grade if SGC believes the card was originally misgraded. If the grade change results in a loss of value of the card, SGC will compensate the customer based upon market value as solely determined by SGC."

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Posted By: Andy

ttt

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Posted By: barrysloate

Joe and Corey- very interesting discussion about what rights of ownership one has upon resubmission. The owner may have the right to say don't touch my card unless you bump it a grade, and the grading company might see an obvious error that needs to be corrected . Who wins that argument, legally or otherwise?

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Posted By: JimB

Corey said,
"they're too smart to throw their reputation under a bus by putting the SGC seal of approval on cards they know or have the capability to know are altered. Going further, inasmuch as a number of PSA 8s are clearly overgraded, even if they are not altered, I can't see SGC certifying a card as an 8 if they don't think it meets that standard. So that too would kill it for a lot of potential crossover customers. Not only would SGC not agree to overlook alerations, they would also not be willing to slab a card an 8 unless they truly felt it was an 8."

Corey,
With all due respect, you could switch PSA and SGC's names in your statement and it would still be true. PSA does not automatically cross SGC cards either, and for the same reasons. But I agree with Joe on this. The grading companies do not own my cards and it is not their's to confiscate if they do not like their previous evaluation. If they think they have made an error, they can contact me and attempt to negotiate an appropriate settlement. But I do not see why I should be under any obligation.
JimB

Edited to add: I say this not as any sort of PSA supporter. I generally think SGC does a better job these days. But I think PSA often does not get fair treatment on this board.

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Posted By: Steve

May be wrong in how I've read it, but I believe the process is akin to simple crossover. You jot down the minimum grade you'll accept. They refuse, you get the thing back, same as if it were an SGC, BVG or GAI.

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Posted By: cmoking

Corey wrote: "In my opinion there is an enormous difference. In the case you describe, SGC is not putting its seal of approval (via encapsulating the card in its slab) on the card. Returning it to you as you gave it to them (in the PSA slab) DOES NOT RETURN THE CARD TO CIRCULATION WITH ANY SGC CERTIFICATION ON THE SLAB THAT COLLECTORS COULD RELY ON TO THEIR DETRIMENT."

I completely agree with this! If SGC returns it to you in the PSA holder, they are saying it didn't pass their standards. If PSA returns it to you in the PSA holder, they are saying the old PSA opinion is still valid. Two very very very different things.

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Posted By: Joe D.

barry:
"The owner may have the right to say don't touch my card unless you bump it a grade, and the grading company might see an obvious error that needs to be corrected . Who wins that argument, legally or otherwise?"

In that case - the owner would have to give consent to the change.

Something most important to consider.
Neither grading company is selling 'absolute truth'. They are selling subjective opinions. They cannot say in absolute terms that a prior grading was incorrect and a new opinion is correct or more accurate. Cannot - and most likely would not. All grading companies covet and enjoy the 'grading is subjective' pretense. As soon as they start claiming absolute truths - they open themselves up to a whole bunch of other problems.

That is why they offer the 'do not crack' on cross grades.

And if I write a minimum grade on a reholder they cannot touch my card in that case as well.


I cannot assume, you cannot assume, they cannot assume the most current subjective opinion is any more valid than the prior subjective opinion.



king and corey:
we just don't see eye to eye on that one.
In both cases - the card is sent to a grading company for evaluation. But in one of those cases, you accept that a grading company can back away from grading. Why put the obligation of a mandatory grade in one case and not the other? Why not - if you send a card to a grading company - they grade it... plain and simple? The answer is what I have been saying all along. Because the card and the slab are your property. Also see the above point that grading is subjective. They cannot claim to be absolutely correct, ever.


FYS:
As per the quote you pulled from the SGC grading policy.... If SGC ever downgraded a resubmit and handed me what they thought was fair in compensation (without talking to me about it prior to taking action) - it would be my very last submission with the company. Also - they have a spot on their orders that say Minimum Grade. If I fill that in - they have no right to ignore it - they can refuse service - but they cannot ignore that term that I put on the order.

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Posted By: MikeU

"FYS:
As per the quote you pulled from the SGC grading policy.... If SGC ever downgraded a resubmit and handed me what they thought was fair in compensation (without talking to me about it prior to taking action) - it would be my very last submission with the company. Also - they have a spot on their orders that say Minimum Grade. If I fill that in - they have no right to ignore it - they can refuse service - but they cannot ignore that term that I put on the order."

My understanding is that they call the submitter and negotiate an agreeable compensation amount for the downgrade i.e. pulling realized prices from VCP. They do not want erros in the marketplace, but do not pull a PSA and crack the card out and send it back without telling you. Then tell you the holder was tampered with after you call.

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Posted By: JK

Joe,

You stated:

"I can send any PSA 8 card to SGC and say DO NOT CRACK unless you give me a grade of an 8 or better. If they find that card is altered... they will send it back to me still in the PSA 8 slab. How is that different than PSA offering the same 'DO NOT CRACK' on possible 1/2 point bumps? IMO - there is no difference."


There is a big difference. A more reasonable comparison would be if you send SGC an SGC graded card for a regrade because you dont agree with the originally assigned grade. I believe that SGC makes no promises that the card wont come back in a lower grade or slabbed as authentic if they determine that they missed something the first time. However, I do believe that pursuant to their guarantee they would make you whole if you bought the card based on the original assigned grade.

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Posted By: Joe D.

MikeU:
I agree. SGC would call the person first in that case.
They are a stand up organization with great people and great policies.
I also agree that they would come up with a fair solution - that if it was my card - I am sure I would agree with their solution (if I believed that their determination was accurate).

BUT - if a card owner did not agree with the lower grade (and put down a minimum grade)... SGC cannot crack out that card and give it a lower grade. Its just that simple.

I believe this is consistent with what I have been saying all along. My initial comments came as a reaction to others claiming that resubmissions should 'have to' be subject to the possibility of lower grades. They shouldn't and they aren't.


JK:
Okay... Lets take PSA out of the equation. If I resubmit an SGC card to SGC for further consideration... and put down a minimum acceptable grade (as the current grade). In my eyes they have two options: a) Refuse service b) Give me the card back in the same grade or higher.



It is worth repeating...
All grading companies are in the 'subjective opinion' game. They can never claim that any opinion is 'absolute truth'.


edited spelling. probably should edit more.

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Posted By: JK

Sorry, missed that FYS posted the SGC policy above. Joe, you further stated:

"As per the quote you pulled from the SGC grading policy.... If SGC ever downgraded a resubmit and handed me what they thought was fair in compensation (without talking to me about it prior to taking action) - it would be my very last submission with the company. Also - they have a spot on their orders that say Minimum Grade. If I fill that in - they have no right to ignore it - they can refuse service - but they cannot ignore that term that I put on the order."

A couple of points:

1. The minimum grade spot on their orders is for cross overs only - nothing else. Again, sending a card in another companies slab is not equivilent to this situation. If I sent a card to psa that was graded by sgc and said cross it and didnt provide a minimum grade, they would cross it to whatever grade they felt was appropriate - even a lower one.

2. When you send an sgc graded card to sgc for regrade - you have, in doing so, agreed to sgc's terms of service. One of which is that your card may get a lower grade and, in return, you will be compensated for any loss of value.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

There has and always will be a certain anal-retentiveness to collecting cards in mint condition - I will for one never be able to understand the mentality of competing for the best condition set of baseball cards, however I understand this is a large section of collectors who do fall into that category. They are being fleeced by PSA with this decision to bump up grades. It's forcing those with the very high grade sets to resubmit cards they've already paid to have graded just so they can stay competitive. I know I haven't really said anything new here, but as an outsider who does not compete on the registry it is clear this was a ploy to fleece money from the registry collectors....you are at their mercy.

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Posted By: fed.up

Joe D., simply put, you're wrong. PSA can decertify any card at any time for any reason. The only thing that is your property is the card itself.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dan, no one with high grade Registry sets is happy about it, trust me. That being said, if you don't have a choice, you don't have a choice because as you correctly pointed out doing nothing will just serve to decrease the value of one's collection. And while the investment required to resubmit may be painful, time consuming and annoying, the payoff is that the value of vintage high grade, bumped cards will offset the costs of resubmission -- and then some.

Orlando is what he is I suppose: a huckster first and foremost but to Registry people he's 'our huckster', unfortunately.

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Posted By: JK

Despite "fed up" posting anonymously and violating forum rules, he makes a good point with respect to the certification.

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Posted By: dennis

dan b. i agree with you 100%,but those registry guys don't seem to care. rather i think it makes the game more fun for them.

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Posted By: fed.up

JK, I did not violate forum rules. There is nothing controversial in my post.

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Posted By: Joe D.

Actually - it seems PSA has gone ahead and quelled any of those concerns. They are the ones who said they will bump or return. So they will not decertify.

JK
If I write on an order a minimum grade... I think they would have to refuse service or abide by the minimum grade. If you are suggesting that the order itself has a spot for crossovers only - I could cross out 'crossover only' or just put my minimum somewhere else.


I have to point out once again... subjectivity. None of the graders want to claim otherwise. This is why they 'do not crack'. They would cause themselves worlds more trouble if they claim to be absolutely accurate. They never do. So, undoing a slab - against the wishes of the owner - either by a competing company or their own has many many more issues and implications than it would appear on the surface.



fed.up: ultimately, these companies can do whatever the heck they want. You mention decertifying. I don't think that is applicable in this context. But of course they can do it. They can also grade every new card that comes in a 9. never higher and never lower. Its up to them. Its also up to us (as consumers) to take their policies in as a whole and decide whether or not they are a worthy place to send our business to.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

This is perhaps a point about which we might just to have to agree to disagree.

FYS in his post at 11:47 this morning stated what SGC's terms are upon resubmissions,

"Cards on regrade or reholder service: SGC has the right to reevaluate the card and assign a newly established grade if SGC believes the card was originally misgraded. If the grade change results in a loss of value of the card, SGC will compensate the customer based upon market value as solely determined by SGC."

As I see it, case closed. SGC has just in the clearest of language warned all prospective resubmitters that you do so at your risk. If SGC learns they initially erred in how they slabbed the card, they have the right, upon payment of damages, to rectify the mistake. Yes, you may challenge them on how they compute the damages, but not on their right to take the card out of the initial holder.

And, if you think about it a bit, this is very fair. For the nominal (relative to the value of the card) fee you originally paid SGC to slab the card, they have added perhaps thousands or tens of thousands of dollars to the value of your possession. There is simply no way they are going to let you prevent them from taking steps to prevent the trashing of their reputation if they later learn they erred. Suppose the card is a high grade T206 Plank that it turns out was altered. Such a high visibility card with the initial SGC seal of approval can cause serious damage to their reputation and their associated goodwill, which as I said previously is their greatest asset. Any rational company would fight to the end to protect this asset. Also too, what SGC is doing (taking the card out of circulation in the incorrect holder and thereby preventing innocent third parties from relying to their detriment on an incorrect grade) happens to coincide exactly with the public interest. So therefore I can't see any court not upholding their right to force the regrading upon you.

Jeff -- I think what will make Jim C happy will also make PSA happy -- reslabbing as many of his 8s as 8.5s as possible. To Jim, he gets his coveted upgrades and concurrent rise in the set registry standings, all without any risk of having to expose his altered cards. To PSA, they now have other set registry contestants chomping at the bit to resubmit their cards and reclaim their place in the standings. Talk about a win-win! And, at the same time, talk about a grading company conflict of interest in doing the re-evaluations!!

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Some of this may have already been raised...

Grading is subjective just as identifying a card with an alteration is subjective. Certainly there are instances were condition and originality of the card is more absolute. Therefore a grading company is nothing more than an opinion that the masses (in PSA’s case) have bought into. PSA stating the card will not come back in anything less than the grade originally assigned assumes they originally graded and encapsulated said card because it was not altered after said card underwent the thorough and competent grading process. Relying on that argument means they then only have to apply the appropriate criteria to determine if the card is high end or not.

If PSA was ever required to answer in court or to a regulatory agency, seems to me they would only have to show how many cards are submitted to them and how many they have encapsulated. Whether or not you support PSA, you have to admit that if they have graded 11 million cards, far more than 11 million and one cards have been submitted.

Additionally, if under this review process they are not required to break the card out of the holder they can more easily rest on their assumption the card was determined to be free of alterations when originally graded, as it is that much tougher to assess a card in that area inside of the holder making it much easier to them to justify turning a blind eye. To PSA this process is merely to fine tune the accuracy of the original grade assigned by now offering to identify high end examples-a service which was not available until now.

By the way, no grading company wants to buy back cards. Certainly not in the volume that many feel PSA should be doing. Not because of the cost of the specific card, though in some instances cost might be a factor, but what it does to public perception. It would be an invitation to the public to lose faith in their opinion. With that said I have had PSA buy back cards with my consent and without. I have also had them remove cards from holders upon review and return the card to me ungraded with no compensation while removing the cert numbers from the database. I am not the only person to experience this with them and some of these others have had it done with multi thousand dollar cards. Generally, my experience has been that PSA prefers to not admit to having graded an altered card and the card will be returned unchanged.

Greg

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

fed.up said: "PSA can decertify any card at any time for any reason."

Yes, we've learned this when JP Cohen and Memory Lane had PSA change cert numbers on a bunch of the same cards sold in chronological auctions so as to make it appear that different cards were being auctioned. We are full aware that PSA will do what it has to do for its own benefit and for those it does close business with -- regardless of the ethical implications of its actions.

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Posted By: barrysloate

If you send a card to SGC for reevaluation that is graded a 60, and upon further examination they determine it is more accurately a 50, they would certainly abide by your minimum grade requirement; because in the end, the difference between a 50 and 60 is subjective anyway.

But upon reviewing that same card if they determine it is altered, it does hurt their brand name by putting it back into circulation. One day you may sell it and the new owner may expose it as an altered card that was given a numerical grade.

I see Joe's point but Corey's argument appears stronger.

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Posted By: JimB

"The only thing that is your property is the card itself."

Not true. I also own the plastic that encases the card. Are you trying to say that PSA or SGC could knock on my door at any time and ask for their plastic back and have some sort of legal right to it? That is insane.
JimB

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Posted By: Steve

FWIW Joe Orlando has just left a post (over at CU) stating he will discuss volume discounts with anyone.

Seems fair IMO.

Steve

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Greg said "Grading is subjective just as identifying a card with an alteration is subjective. Certainly there are instances were condition and originality of the card is more absolute. Therefore a grading company is nothing more than an opinion that the masses (in PSA’s case) have bought into. PSA stating the card will not come back in anything less than the grade originally assigned assumes they originally graded and encapsulated said card because it was not altered after said card underwent the thorough and competent grading process. Relying on that argument means they then only have to apply the appropriate criteria to determine if the card is high end or not."



Greg,

As mentioned, I can send them a graded card that has been clearly documented and shown on my website as admittedly altered and submit it for a bump review. Won't even hide the fact either, it can be sent with a note saying this is a doctored card. I haven't read the fine details but from the posts here it would seem they could not do a thing to it but send it back as-is.

Questions to all: Would they be legally obligated to send it back in the same holder with the same grade...obviously it would not get a bump? Would they crack it and reholder with an authentic grade? Keep it or send it back raw?

I must respectfully disagree that alterations are subjective, they are generally very objective.


Kevin

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Posted By: barrysloate

Kevin- let's take an extreme case and say someone sends a card to SGC or PSA for review and the graders recognize that for some unexplainable reason they holdered a counterfeit. I can't believe they would just return it as is.

Some other resolution has to take place, and the first step would be to contact the customer and try to find some way to make both sides happy.

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Posted By: Steve

PSA never said they would return altered cards during this resubmit. they simply said that they would not down grade any cards. If last week you sent in a card already in a PSA slab for a review or an upgrade and it was then found to be counterfiet or altered they would call you and tell you. Why should we think that they would do it differently now? Because no mention of a policy they already have in effect was made?

You can bet that if they see any counterfiets or trimmed cards in there holders the submitter will be getting a call. They do not want anything like that in there holders. Will some get thru a 2nd time? Of course they are not looking for that this time I would think they are looking for only those cards that warrant a bump.


JMO

Steve

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Posted By: Joe D.

"But upon reviewing that same card if they determine it is altered, it does hurt their brand name by putting it back into circulation. One day you may sell it and the new owner may expose it as an altered card that was given a numerical grade. "


Cutting to the chase... when PSA announced 1/2 grades - many on this board objected that it was either a bump or send back. Lets be frank... people here wanted a grand atonement for past PSA sins. That is not realistic for PSA or SGC.


(not naming the company) I personally have submitted a card that was given an Authentic grade... argued against it, showed evidence, and was given a number grade. I know of someone else who submitted cards straight from what were 100 year old unopened tobacco packs... some came back as 'trimmed' even though no human hands had touched the cards in nearly a century - and they were right out of the pack. After arguing against it, and showing evidence these cards were given number grades. The point is... lets not all get carried away. Even 'trimmed' or 'authentic' is an opinion. Not a statement of fact. I don't own any of the cards mentioned above. They are in circualtion. But if they get reviewed again... they could come back authentic with a new 'fast' opinion given by a grader.... even though these cards were given more care and consideration and were deemed okay.

When grading companies start rescinding their own grades - they will lose their customer base. I would never send another card to any grading company that lowers my already established grade without my prior consent. If they can change their mind or rescind a grade at any time... why not put expiration dates on the flip, or make annual reviews mandatory? Where does it stop?

Thats it - I am cracking them all out tonight!

(truth be told, my favorite cards are graded authentic. And more times than not - the technical grade given by a grader is not a determining factor to my wanting or keeping a card.)


edit: grammar