My exceptional PWCC pickup.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're a smart guy David. If I tell the world that from now on I won't rob any more banks, what does that convey about my past?

Peter, you're a smart guy, too. And you have the legal background that I don't. The statement to which you are referring to is not an admission to any previous guilt.

"PWCC will officially cease working with any individual who has a proven track record of consistently hurting trust in the marketplace, the brand of PWCC, or the reputations of the grading companies upon which our market is based."

It's simply an admission to "working with" which could mean a lot of things. If I told you "I'm going to stop working with drug dealers, money launderers, and human traffickers" would that imply that I was involved in any of that? It would sure sound like it, huh? But then what if I told you I was a parole officer? That would change the context of my statement, right? Do you see where I'm going here?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

I think this is all a conspiracy to crap on my exceptional card that I was able to pick up. This conspiracy goes years back and Is too elaborate. I don’t buy anything anyone is saying.

It's a damn fine card. But the thread moved on.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter, you're a smart guy, too. And you have the legal background that I don't. The statement to which you are referring to is not an admission to any previous guilt.

"PWCC will officially cease working with any individual who has a proven track record of consistently hurting trust in the marketplace, the brand of PWCC, or the reputations of the grading companies upon which our market is based."

It's simply an admission to "working with" which could mean a lot of things. If I told you "I'm going to stop working with drug dealers, money launderers, and human traffickers" would that imply that I was involved in any of that? It would sure sound like it, huh? But then what if I told you I was a parole officer? That would change the context of my statement, right? Do you see where I'm going here?

Context, David. Response to posts on Blowout showing numerous cards purchased by a certain individual with a certain reputation in one grade (in many cases from PWCC) and then consigned to and sold by PWCC in a higher grade. An individual who Brent has done business with for a decade or more (actually closer to two I think). Same individual who is the subject of the emails Jeff mentioned. Anyhow, I'm not going to convince you, so believe whatever you choose.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Uh huh. So how does the bank know who to stop accepting deposits from in your example unless it knows they're money launderers and drug dealers? And why did it ever take their deposits? Anyhow, read Jeff's post about evidence he has seen.

PS read the words. It doesn't say suspected, it says proven track record. "PWCC will officially cease working with any individual who has a proven track record of consistently hurting trust in the marketplace, the brand of PWCC, or the reputations of the grading companies upon which our market is based."

PPS if they're clean, why not release the identity of all the cards from such people they have sold in the past, instead of leaving it to the collectors to figure it out.

Because Peter, there are way too many cards to identify. Did you see the work on PSA 1 to a PSA 4- 48 leaf Dimaggio just posted in BO ? And the 93 basketball trim jobs yesterday? It is a beautiful conservation job! PWCC is so intertwined by turning a blind eye to known card doctors especially guys like Gary Moser. This has been happening for decades. Some just don't want to see it, that's OK And there is no proof right now against PSA other than being blithering idiots. That wouldn't surprise me if they are in on the gag?

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Because Peter, there are way too many cards to identify. Did you see the work on PSA 1 to a PSA 4- 48 leaf Dimaggio just posted in BO ? And the 93 basketball trim jobs yesterday? It is a beautiful conservation job! PWCC is so enter twined by turning a blind eye to known card doctors especially guys like Gary Moser. This has been happening for decades. Some just don't want to see it, that's OK And there is no proof right now against PSA other than being blithering idiots. That wouldn't surprise me if they are in on the gag?

Using the phrase enter twined and calling another a blithering idiot says more about your intelligence than it does about theirs.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

And there is no proof right now against PSA other than being blithering idiots. That wouldn't surprise me if they are in on the gag?

I've said that for years. I'll even say it once more for record. There are "dirty" graders at PSA that knowingly grade altered cards in exchange for money under the table. And if PSA wants to go after me for saying that, that's fine. But part of the discovery process (correct me, Peter, if I'm not using that term correctly ) would include finding out who the grader(s) is by the serial numbers of the known doctored cards. I'm pretty sure PSA wants to keep that hush hush.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Context, David. Response to posts on Blowout showing numerous cards purchased by a certain individual with a certain reputation in one grade (in many cases from PWCC) and then consigned to and sold by PWCC in a higher grade. An individual who Brent has done business with for a decade or more (actually closer to two I think). Same individual who is the subject of the emails Jeff mentioned. Anyhow, I'm not going to convince you, so believe whatever you choose.

We can agree to disagree and move on. But let me say this. However you interpret the statement, at least he acknowledged he was working with individuals that are bad for this hobby. So hold him accountable for his words. If doctored cards still continue to show up in his auctions, I'm pretty sure the sleuths will bust him on it real quick. But at least he had the balls to say it. If Brent knows the name(s) of the consignor(s), don't you think PSA knows the name(s) of the submitter(s)? Do you think PSA would have the balls to make such a statement? To cease working with submitters of cards that have been proven to be doctored? No way!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I've said that for years. I'll even say it once more for record. There are "dirty" graders at PSA that knowingly grade altered cards in exchange for money under the table. And if PSA wants to go after me for saying that, that's fine. But part of the discovery process (correct me, Peter, if I'm not using that term correctly ) would include finding out who the grader(s) is by the serial numbers of the known doctored cards. I'm pretty sure PSA wants to keep that hush hush.

If you're right about that -- and I don't believe it but I get why people would -- THAT would be a game changer. I think of the Fitzgerald line about Arnold Rothstein (the gambler who fixed the 1919 WS) playing with the faith of 50 million people or something like that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

We can agree to disagree and move on. But let me say this. However you interpret the statement, at least he acknowledged he was working with individuals that are bad for this hobby. So hold him accountable for his words. If doctored cards still continue to show up in his auctions, I'm pretty sure the sleuths will bust him on it real quick. But at least he had the balls to say it. If Brent knows the name(s) of the consignor(s), don't you think PSA knows the name(s) of the submitter(s)? Do you think PSA would have the balls to make such a statement? To cease working with submitters of cards that have been proven to be doctored? No way!

I am sure PSA has a list of people it won't take submissions from. Brent even references it. That said, of course, there's an easy enough workaround.

[frankbmd]

If anybody gets a ruptured spleen as a result of this ongoing controversy, I accept most insurance or clean cold cash.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

If anybody gets a ruptured spleen in this ongoing controversy, I accept most insurance or clean cold cash.

Can you perform an egoectomy?

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Can you perform an egoectomy?

Reimbursement for esophagectomies is more profitable.

Swallow that.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Using the phrase enter twined and calling another a blithering idiot says more about your intelligence than it does about theirs.

for once we agree, lol

[Republicaninmass]

Dont forget you just so happen to be from Oregon.

Let the conspiracies build!


Sure PSA graders on the take, Mosers cards must go to that grader every time out of thousands of cards. Maybe puts a smiley face on the box, or slides a ben Franklin in the card saver.


This is one of the most ridiculous conspiracies I've seen posted a bit PSA. Multi million dollar public company, not noticing an hourly employee pass one guys bad cards

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Dont forget you just so happen to be from Oregon.

Let the conspiracies build!


Sure PSA graders on the take, Mosers cards must go to that grader every time out of thousands of cards. Maybe puts a smiley face on the box, or slides a ben Franklin in the card saver.


This is one of the most ridiculous conspiracies I've seen posted a bit PSA. Multi million dollar public company, not noticing an hourly employee pass one guys bad cards

It's not one guys bad cards, it is several peoples bad cards.

[Goudey77]

Brent speaks on this matter that’s been hotly debated here.

https://youtu.be/_f3k5VSqVt4

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Brent speaks on this matter that’s been hotly debated here.

https://youtu.be/_f3k5VSqVt4

You "noticed" that pretty quickly. Must be because you are both from Oregon.

[Fuddjcal]

complete LIAR, IMHO. Body language tells the whole story, choking on his own words. I hope I'm wrong, but time will tell.

Rule of Engagement LOL. Enjoy your exceptional trimmed cards from PWCC. I'm betting half of everything PWCC sells is just regurgitated cards that spin around in cases after being DOCTORED.

I want to try and be fair and open but this is ridiculous. This is so much deeper than we know. I almost feel like paying someone on BO to check every one of their cards, just for fun.

You have done nothing but harm, IMHO

I have a 52 Mantle I would like you to spoon out the crease. Can you help?

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

You "noticed" that pretty quickly. Must be because you are both from Oregon.

lol exactly what I was thinking, but worded differently in the other thread.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Brent speaks on this matter that’s been hotly debated here.

https://youtu.be/_f3k5VSqVt4

No debate, nobody with any hobby experience agrees with his nonsense.

Let's see a list of cards consigned by card doctors.

[Jim65]

Better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

[calvindog]

Brent obviously hasn’t hired a criminal lawyer because no competent one would have let him do that. Very similar to Doug Allen: is convinced he’s smarter than everyone he’s defrauding and refuses to keep his mouth shut, insisting upon trying to lie his way out of this. Which of course will come back to bite him. I’m guessing Brent’s very nervous body language had to do with his belief that law enforcement was watching.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Brent obviously hasn’t hired a criminal lawyer because no competent one would have let him do that. Very similar to Doug Allen: is convinced he’s smarter than everyone he’s defrauding and refuses to keep his mouth shut, insisting upon trying to lie his way out of this. Which of course will come back to bite him. I’m guessing Brent’s very nervous body language had to do with his belief that law enforcement was watching.

I admit I could not bring myself to watch it. Any good things for the hobby in there?

[swarmee]

Brent announced during the PSA show on Wednesday that he's breaking ground on a second vault, and that the current one is scheduled to open a week from now. He keeps doubling down.

[CobbSpikedMe]

I watched a little bit of it so far. He elaborates on what conservation is and how it is when you can't tell that something has been done to the card. If you can tell something was done then it's altering. My questions are as follows:

1. If you can't tell something was done to the card, then what is the debate about which it is (Conserved or Altered) since you can't see it anyway.
2. What about when collectors like those on BO prove the card has been trimmed or worked on? Isn't that now alteration per Brent's own words in the video?

He's digging a deeper and deeper hole here.

Andy Huntoon

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

I watched a little bit of it so far. He elaborates on what conservation is and how it is when you can't tell that something has been done to the card. If you can tell something was done then it's altering. My questions are as follows:

1. If you can't tell something was done to the card, then what is the debate about which it is (Conserved or Altered) since you can't see it anyway.
2. What about when collectors like those on BO prove the card has been trimmed or worked on? Isn't that now alteration per Brent's own words in the video?

He's digging a deeper and deeper hole here.

Andy Huntoon

There are people who, if you give them a rope, will use it to hang themselves. Some of that going on, perhaps.

[Rhotchkiss]

I am very interested to see the effect this has on the consignments and prices brought in the next few pwcc auctions. Thoughts?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I am very interested to see the effect this has on the consignments and prices brought in the next few pwcc auctions. Thoughts?

I think it will take a lot more to slow down the train than is out there so far. I doubt most buyers are even aware of recent events. Stuff and flips will prevail.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Unfortunately Ryan, I don't think it will change the prices realized by PWCC auctions much. The vast majority of bidders in their auctions don't follow this story and aren't going to fall into this youtube video by accident. They will continue to bid like crazy. IMHO.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Unfortunately Ryan, I don't think it will change the prices realized by PWCC auctions much. The vast majority of bidders in their auctions don't follow this story and aren't going to fall into this youtube video by accident. They will continue to bid like crazy. IMHO.

Especially for those nifty stickers.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Precisely Peter. How long until there is a PWCC registry to compete with PSA where their stickers come into play. You can invest in assets, keep them in the Vault to save on sales tax, still see your cards in the virtual world from the registry and then sell your assets from the Vault when you want to cash in.

[Rhotchkiss]

I am not sure I agree- there are a lot of eyes on this board and it’s all the rage on other boards. I think there will be some effect; maybe people will limit their bidding to only the “must haves” on pwcc for a while (bc stuff does trump all). I guess we will find out soon enough.

That said, I do agree that this scandal, like scandals past, will do little to slow the popularity and increasing prices of cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Precisely Peter. How long until there is a PWCC registry to compete with PSA where their stickers come into play. You can invest in assets, keep them in the Vault to save on sales tax, still see your cards in the virtual world from the registry and then sell your assets from the Vault when you want to cash in.

Yup. And get investment advice too. Vertical integration at its finest, or something like that. Maybe they'll start a "conservation" service too, after all it's legit apparently.

[swarmee]

One of the blowout guys says he found that Moser bought 200 NM-MT 1952-1970s cards on eBay from Greg Morris Cards. So all cards through PWCC should basically be suspect at this point. They claimed they were going to remove cards from their auctions from known fraudsters, but that doesn't seem to be happening.
All those loyal bidders who don't read message boards would notice if wide swaths of the auction lots were suddenly cancelled. Many should also be getting notified by PWCC when they already purchased a card determined to be trimmed or consigned by a known scammer.

Forbes (Seideman) has been suspiciously silent about the matter. Maybe it doesn't jive with their promotional tour for sports collectibles.

But hey, everything's hunky-dory. Let's break ground on another vault...

[Republicaninmass]

Convinced half their sales are going to card doctors, or back to the consignors. Funny, no trimmed cards sold, albeit one bought, from probstein.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

One of the blowout guys says he found that Moser bought 200 NM-MT 1952-1970s cards on eBay from Greg Morris Cards. So all cards through PWCC should basically be suspect at this point. They claimed they were going to remove cards from their auctions from known fraudsters, but that doesn't seem to be happening.
All those loyal bidders who don't read message boards would notice if wide swaths of the auction lots were suddenly cancelled. Many should also be getting notified by PWCC when they already purchased a card determined to be trimmed or consigned by a known scammer.

Forbes (Seideman) has been suspiciously silent about the matter. Maybe it doesn't jive with their promotional tour for sports collectibles.

But hey, everything's hunky-dory. Let's break ground on another vault...

Maybe the words they used -- "proven track record" -- were actually weasel words and they are taking the position that there actually aren't any that need to be removed. After all nobody has been convicted.

[iowadoc77]

Going off the rails on the crazy train!

[swarmee]

I hope that everyone who is returning cards to Brent and other auctionhouses that bought through eBay start a return through eBay or through PayPal.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Convinced half their sales are going to card doctors, or back to the consignors. Funny, no trimmed cards sold, albeit one bought, from probstein.

Bingo! Somehow poor old Brent is just unlucky. All the fraud goes through him.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Brent obviously hasn’t hired a criminal lawyer because no competent one would have let him do that. Very similar to Doug Allen: is convinced he’s smarter than everyone he’s defrauding and refuses to keep his mouth shut, insisting upon trying to lie his way out of this. Which of course will come back to bite him. I’m guessing Brent’s very nervous body language had to do with his belief that law enforcement was watching.

can anyone save this video for posterior (I always liked that joke) as I have a feeling it might come down fairly quickly.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I hope that everyone who is returning cards to Brent and other auctionhouses that bought through eBay start a return through eBay or through PayPal.

I think I wanted.to return on once, and his terms state there has to be some extreme misrepresentation blahs blahs blahs. I didnt bother, but not sure it will be so easy

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I am not sure I agree- there are a lot of eyes on this board and it’s all the rage on other boards. I think there will be some effect; maybe people will limit their bidding to only the “must haves” on pwcc for a while (bc stuff does trump all). I guess we will find out soon enough.

That said, I do agree that this scandal, like scandals past, will do little to slow the popularity and increasing prices of cards.

I will limit myself to no more must haves, especially no haves from PWCC

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I spoke to a former IRS agent from the Criminal Investigation Unit today and I explained to him what Brent is doing with his vault. He told me I must have rocks in my head to think that is legal. Notice I am not inserting a winkie emoji, Martin.

Oh the irony. What do you think of the vault now Mr. Lichtman?
Why don't snakes bite attorneys? Professional courtesy.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Oh the irony. What do you think of the vault now Mr. Lichtman?
Why don't snakes bite attorneys? Professional courtesy.

I think the vault is a joke. Just like you.

[CobbSpikedMe]

What of anything that Jeff has posted makes you think his opinion of the Vault has changed (of all things)?

[RedsFan1941]

rearranging deck chairs on the titanic.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I think the vault is a joke. Just like you.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings

Good on you for fighting the fight.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

What of anything that Jeff has posted makes you think his opinion of the Vault has changed (of all things)?

Oh nothing at all...why would I?