Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by atx840

So far I cant find a non signed version of yours Paul.

I assume you mean the Murray? I would guess the white triangular paper loss around the crease was done by the fraudster, which would make it that much tougher to uncover.

[Peter_Spaeth]

At what point do people finally lose confidence in these authentication services for autographs?

[RedsFan1941]

at least 5 years ago?

[Orioles1954]

I bought 9 signed T206 cards between 2006 and 2008 including several from the Pennsylvania find. I no longer actively collect and sold them a few years ago. My fear is that even legit signed T206 cards have lost significant value. For those damaged I would insist that your TPG add a graded date to the flip to help mitigate any value loss. Pre-2015 signed cards would be presumably unaffected and this service should be without charge. The Morrey and Pennsylvania collections should have additional provenance on the flip.

[atx840]

I think this is your Murray. Do you have a back scan. Mar 5, 2015

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Did their website say they had exemplars of Wayne Gretzky's DAD's autograph to compare against? Sounds like you got too cute with it.

I've never been mistaken for cute.

Hahahahahha!

Peace, Mike

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Please forward him $250.

Please tell me that's not what he charges for his "expertise".

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by atx840

I think this is your Murray. Do you have a back scan. Mar 5, 2015

That’s definitely it. Well done. I have to pull these little pieces of criminal evidence out of my safe deposit box (a lot of good that extra layer of protection did them) to see the back, but will scan and post it here.

Thanks again for all the hard work everybody.

[T206Collector]

Found a post of mine from October 2015, which is very hard for me to read. But you can see my surprise about the onslaught of new signed T206 cards to hit the hobby. I mention and cite a Carrigan from Clean Sweep that ought to be looked at as well. So sad. I was so excited at the time.

Edited to note: the Speaker has been known to the hobby for over a decade and should not be tarred by the fact that it came up for sale at this time.

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Now that the dust has settled, I wanted to discuss the absolute flurry of signed T206 cards that have been popping up in different recent auctions -- a whopping three of which poses had never been publicly identified before (Baker, Tannehill, and Murray). I believe this to be the first time a heretofore unknown signed T206 pose has been publicized since I started tracking these wonderful little marvels back in April 2007. To have three all in the same month or so really amazed me, and hopefully is a portent of good things to come in this regard.

The cream of the crop, Tris Speaker, went for $32,310 -- -- the highest price ever recorded for an autographed T206 card at auction by thousands, exceeding the $27,600 a signed red background Cobb sold for in 2010. This beauty went in the last Goodwin Auction:

https://goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.a...entoryid=30988

An absolute steal by comparison, this beautiful Frank "Home Run" Baker went for a relatively inexpensive $9,000 to the same buyer in Robert Edward Auctions last weekend:

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=38416

REA also had this sweet Jess Tannehill, which went for $6,600:

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=38417

Tannehill, who died in 1956 -- the earliest of each of these five -- surpassed the highest prior sale of another signed T206 common by over $1,000, a sale which coincidentally happened three weeks ago when Hunt Auctions listed this gorgeous Red Murray:

http://huntauctions.com/phone/imagev...135&lot_num=48

But perhaps the most surprising sale of all was this signed T206 of Bill Carrigan for $2,742 in Clean Sweep Auctions. Surprising because two additional Carrigans were sold from The Great Pittsburgh Find of Signed T206 Cards that hit eBay in 2007, so this was at least the third one identified in that time, and I believe I have seen or owned one or two others.

http://www.cleansweepauctions.com/it...0519504#images

Carrigan died in 1969, which gave him three years after the publication of The Glory of Their Times to sign TTM autographs. Although Carrigan was not featured in Larry Ritter's book, the book generated substantial interest in the Deadball Era, and triggered the pursuit of many autograph collectors who were similarly inspired to track down Rube Marquard, Fred Snodgrass, and others.

This Fall has indeed been a very exciting time to be collecting autographed tobacco cards. It has also caused my wallet to hemorrhage money, as I added the Tannehill and Murray to my collection, which now includes 40 unique signed poses of T206 cards.

[Pat R]

Do you have a larger scan of the Carrigan Paul.

I think we will find out who the culprit is soon. I think I know but
I would have to be 100% sure before I would accuse someone of something
like this.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Do you have a larger scan of the Carrigan Paul.

http://www.cleansweepauctions.com/it...0519504#images

[trobba]

Just getting caught up with all this and its not my area of collecting but it is extremely maddening and troubling on two fronts...

1) The Forger(s) ~ clearly someone has made a lot of money on creating these.I'm actually quite surprised in our relatively small world they have yet to be unmasked.

2) The Authenticators ~ if they can't tell an autograph was done within the last year or two for someone who passed away decades ago that is quite troubling. I thought in addition to studying the flow, style etc of the signature, they were able to tell some age of the writing (ie. like a trimmed card where there is distinctive tells of different aged paper), guess I was wrong.
This will surely throw this side of the business back for years, to miss this many examples in such a relatively short period of time truly shows they really have no clue about what is real and what is fake. Can't think of too many other business where you can be completely wrong that many times and wouldn't affect your long term success (except maybe meteorology).

Very sad times...

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I think we will find out who the culprit is soon. I think I know but I would have to be 100% sure before I would accuse someone of something like this.

I hope you’re right. I am keeping a list of things I am going to say in court.

[Bpm0014]

To miss this many examples in such a relatively short period of time truly shows they really have no clue about what is real and what is fake.

This about sums up everything.

[uniship]

The auction houses involved know exactly who got paid for these forgeries. By now they know with very high confidence who is guilty here.

They need to be outed. These swindlers need to be made public.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by uniship

The auction houses involved know exactly who got paid for these forgeries. By now they know with very high confidence who is guilty here.

They need to be outed. These swindlers need to be made public.

+1

[JoeRand]

Very troubling issue. I love baseball and history... signed vintage cards are the perfect intersection of the two. I'm impressed by how members of this group have unraveled it and I hope whoever is behind it is brought to justice for the sake of the hobby.

Here is my collection. I believe both Doyles and the Snodgrass are from the 2007 Great Pittsburgh find, and perhaps the McBride too... in case anyone can help shed light on their authenticity.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

anyone remember the name of the American Greed guy who has posted here? Maybe they'd like to get in on the ground floor of a story instead of reporting on it years later. Would also ratchet up interest, possibly in law enforcement circles.

[JoeRand]

Apologies for the image orientation... I'm new to posting images on this group so not sure how they ended up sideways, they didn't look that way when being uploaded.

[T206Collector]

Joe - those are great signed T206 cards. All but the Marquard is from the 2007 Pittsburgh Find, and I remain confident are authentic.

The Marquard is actually from an eBay auction of four signed Marquards in 2004. I was the one that had the card authenticated by JSA/SGC, and I still have two others from that lot of four. They were my first four signed T206 cards ever to grace my collection. I can't see the serial numbers on yours clearly, but based on mine I'd guess 9005220-001 or 003.

Here are mine -- you won't find them on Worthpoint or Cardtarget, unless they go back to 2004, and in such instance you'll find only the signed versions!

[JoeRand]

That's a relief to hear! Thanks. Leon is trying to help me upload better images and also get the orientation right, so hopefully that happens soon. Sorry for being such a rookie.

You're right on my Marquard... the last 3 digits of the serial are 003

[t206kid]

Originally Posted by JoeRand

That's a relief to hear! Thanks. Leon is trying to help me upload better images and also get the orientation right, so hopefully that happens soon. Sorry for being such a rookie.

You're right on my Marquard... the last 3 digits of the serial are 003

Joe post back pics! Or post which back+factory each card has.

[JoeRand]

Don't have any back pics or the cards with me. I'll need to dig them out and take fresh front and back pics this weekend.

Originally Posted by t206kid

Joe post back pics! Or post which back+factory each card has.

[barrysloate]

As this hobby has evolved, it has become incredibly dependent on third party graders and authenticators. Put something in a slab and it's just a heartbeat away from a world's record price. Bidders can't buy this stuff fast enough.

But we've known for a long time that countless altered, trimmed, and doctored cards find their way into slabs. And this has not dissuaded anybody from bidding on them, as long as the label tells them what they want to hear.

Now with the realization that fake autographs are finding their way into plastic, the hobby has received yet another black eye. And I'm guessing what our fellow board members have dug up on this thread is only the tip of the iceberg.

Something's gotta give. The hobby can't continue on this trajectory forever. TPG's have to find a way to build a better mousetrap. As it stands now, the mice are winning. At the very least, this is going to drive away a lot of collectors. As Corey said elsewhere, the role of provenance is going to play a bigger role in this industry down the road.

[Leon]

JoeRand's card(s).....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Did JSA actually authenticate a facsimile Winston Churchill signature, as I have read?

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I assume you mean the Murray? I would guess the white triangular paper loss around the crease was done by the fraudster, which would make it that much tougher to uncover.

Being an auto collector, to me this is heart wrenching. I don't collect T206...but have to ask about the condition altering of the cards; Are there specific spots on the T206 cards where a bend or spotting would be most likely?

[RichardSimon]

The right thing now is for the TPA and AH to get their evidence in order and go to the FBI. My guess is that might not happen though. They will not want the publicity which that would surely engender.

[The Nasty Nati]

I think this tarnishes JSA’s reputation pretty bad since they seem the link that had originally authenticated all of these before they were sent to PSA and SGC. Not that those TPGs are off the hook either.

But this really makes you think what other autos besides t206 did JSA miss? Chances are good the forger didn’t start out forging t206 autos until a few years ago when he or she realized the prices autograph t206s were going for. I’m sure there may be hundreds if not thousands of card autographs from after the war that were forged before or during his or hers t206 forgeries. Think Clementes, Williams, Mays, Gehrig, Ruth, you name it.

To me, no era is safe. Especially if JSA clearly doesn’t do any real hard forensic work. I’m assuming they just reference a few authentic autographs in their database and compare them and give them a thumbs up. That may have been a beneficial service before the internet but nowadays you can look up any autograph online and with just a little penmanship practice pass JSA’s and the TPG test.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

The right thing now is for the TPA and AH to get their evidence in order and go to the FBI. My guess is that might not happen though. They will not want the publicity which that would surely engender.

The FBI surely can investigate whether the TPA and AH go to them or not.

[atx840]

The Snodgrass, Would have to have been signed 1909 in very late 1909 if its legit.

[atx840]

Carrigan slabbed

[1treasuretrove]

What is the running count of these cards authenticated by:

1. JSA (either by LOA or in SGC slab before “SGC Authentic”)
2. SGC (their own autograph service “SGC Authentic”)
3. PSA/DNA
4. BAS

How many total cards have been definitively photo matched?

The number identified is climbing by the hour it seems. Great detective work, looking forward to when the culprit has been identified. I’m very curious at how the auction houses and TPA’s publicly respond to this (whether most address it at all). This is certainly making the rounds in the word of mouth press for autograph collectors.

[JoeRand]

I didn't think it was actually signed in 1909... I just thought Snodgrass put the year he played there on the card whenever he signed it.

Originally Posted by atx840

The Snodgrass, Would have to have been signed 1909 in very late 1909 if its legit.

[The Nasty Nati]

Originally Posted by JoeRand

I didn't think it was actually signed in 1909... I just thought Snodgrass put the year he played there on the card whenever he signed it.

Also that is Piedmont 350 so he couldn't have signed it in 1909.

[atx840]

Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati

Also that is Piedmont 350 so he couldn't have signed it in 1909.

Some say they were printed late 1909!

I havent had my morning coffee yet, him signing when he played makes way more sense

[tothrk]

I haven't dealt with PSA or SGC or JSA regarding autographs. My question is: Say I submitted one of these T206's to JSA and it came back authentic. If I then send it to PSA or SGC with the JSA authentication to slab it, do they just slab it because JSA authenticated it? Do they have someone else render an opinion? Just how heavily is the JSA stamp of approval relied upon by auction houses? Considering the flowery language used in auction catalogs, I'm assuming that as soon as they see the JSA cert, they deem it good. If SGC returned the Marquard as fake, which is how this all started, who at SGC deemed it fake? Do they have an in-house person do this? At the very least, it sounds like that individual is worth more than JSA. For the record, I have zero financial interest in what is unfolding. Have never bought or sold any vintage autographed cards. Excellent work by these board members though. Also, if I want to slab my own autograph, do I just send it in?

[jad22]

Originally Posted by tothrk

I haven't dealt with PSA or SGC or JSA regarding autographs. My question is: Say I submitted one of these T206's to JSA and it came back authentic. If I then send it to PSA or SGC with the JSA authentication to slab it, do they just slab it because JSA authenticated it? Do they have someone else render an opinion? Just how heavily is the JSA stamp of approval relied upon by auction houses? Considering the flowery language used in auction catalogs, I'm assuming that as soon as they see the JSA cert, they deem it good. If SGC returned the Marquard as fake, which is how this all started, who at SGC deemed it fake? Do they have an in-house person do this? At the very least, it sounds like that individual is worth more than JSA. For the record, I have zero financial interest in what is unfolding. Have never bought or sold any vintage autographed cards. Excellent work by these board members though. Also, if I want to slab my own autograph, do I just send it in?

No, they don't slab it just because JSA or SGC authenticated it. In general I don't they care to see the prior results.

[2dueces]

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I am one so. I've been to card shows since the 80's. 2 of my friends owned card shops from the 80's to the mid 90's. I can count on 2 fingers the amount of signed T206's I saw from 1000's of old cards. Now every auction recently you have your pick of old timers on every brand of card. Put your order in and boom it's signed. This huge signed card business was non existent, I mean zero, zero, zero interest because there just weren't enough out there. No one, not buyers, PSA, SGC, JSA questioned all this signed cards? No one? So since business was good they just kept making them. Sorry JMO.

[Republicaninmass]

Probably can enlarge this

And its mine

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 2dueces

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I am one so. I've been to card shows since the 80's. 2 of my friends owned card shops from the 80's to the mid 90's. I can count on 2 fingers the amount of signed T206's I saw from 1000's of old cards. Now every auction recently you have your pick of old timers on every brand of card. Put your order in and boom it's signed. This huge signed card business was non existent, I mean zero, zero, zero interest because there just weren't enough out there. No one, not buyers, PSA, SGC, JSA questioned all this signed cards? No one? So since business was good they just kept making them. Sorry JMO.

I know there are finds and exceptions, but I have the same general observation about prewar cards in high grade.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by JoeRand

I didn't think it was actually signed in 1909... I just thought Snodgrass put the year he played there on the card whenever he signed it.

That’s accurate. He came up as a catcher in 1908, and only played 6 games at catcher over his entire 9 year career. He was fond of telling fans about the context of their photos when he responded to their TTM requests. The fact that his other T206 card portrayed him as a catcher was also a topic of his responses.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I know there are finds and exceptions, but I have the same general observation about prewar cards in high grade.

+1

[phikappapsi]

Man, this is just a gut wrenching - throat punch to the hobby.

Really sad and pissed for all the T206 collectors out there that have been taken; selfishly hoping the issue is contained to the period, and from a relatively new forger. That said, I'm now feeling rather unsettled about the work I've been doing on my 39's (and glad I haven't added any in quite some time).

I don't have many concerns over the authenticity on mine, mainly due to the duration I've owned them and the relatively low value of the guys (outside Williams, DiMaggio, Ott) - but no doubt this scandal, especially as it inevitably grows, knocks down demand and prices for all autos. Probably permanently. Clearly the forger(s) know enough to get the penmanship through the TPA's, only a matter of time-if not already here- that they do just a slightly "better" job of masking their efforts.

I for one am probably out of the autograph game for good directly as a result of this.

[theshleps]

What about this one guys? My other SGC slabbed T206. Let me know, thanks
Wheat 1909 T-206 Sweet caporal .jpg

[mybuddyinc]

I am just getting caught up on all of this. I did not realize that I (sg713) sold some cards to the "forger."

I will check my ebay account, and hopefully come up with something, and update.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by theshleps

What about this one guys? My other SGC slabbed T206. Let me know, thanks
Attachment 335841

I had that one for a long time - and pretty sure it predates the Pittsburgh Find. I believe I got it from James Feagin (net54 ID: Orioles1954)

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

The right thing now is for the TPA and AH to get their evidence in order and go to the FBI. My guess is that might not happen though. They will not want the publicity which that would surely engender.

They would be better off going public and marketing it as a "see, we care to help clean things up marketing campaign we've learned from this..." rather than hiding as if they were guilty of something... Take your lumps, fix the issue and improve...

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

They would be better off going public and marketing it as a "see, we care to help clean things up marketing campaign we've learned from this..." rather than hiding as if they were guilty of something... Take your lumps, fix the issue and improve...

agreed but what are the odds of that happening?

[Bpm0014]

@MyBuddyInc

That shouldn’t take more than like 5-10 minutes correct? Not being a jerk, but you providing the name is a big piece of the puzzle, and shouldn’t take long to figure out who it was that purchased these off you...