Vintage Racing?

[phlflyer1]

Don't know how I missed this thread until now but, since its been brought back to the top, I have to post the following Richard Petty item. My father was a huge Petty fan so I became one as well growing up.

The picture is from a 1971 race won by Petty that my father took our family to back when they raced at Trenton, NJ. My father took the photo at the end of the race when Pettys car was in victory lane. Sometime during the 1980s I found an address for Petty Enterprises and sent it hoping to get it signed.

It wasn't long before it came back with Pettys unmistakable autograph along with a nice note that seeing the photo brought back good memories as he enjoyed racing at that track before it was closed.

[Bored5000]

I am glad to see the thread coming back to life. I don't have any information to add on the Andretti card that Justus posted. The card looks like some kind of handout to hype the Champ Car race at Pocono that year.

I was able to find a site online that showed nine of the cards, but does not list any other information.

http://3-2-1indycar.blogspot.com/201...ck-friday.html

To me, the most interesting driver depicted on a card is Johnny Hubbard. Hubbard was from Johnstown, Pa., and was primarily a Midget driver. He tried for several years to break into the Champ Car world, but was usually resigned to underfunded rides. Hubbard was killed in a dirt Modified crash at the Reading (Pa.) Fairgrounds less than three months after the race at Pocono. The Reading Fairgrounds was only 10 minutes from my house and I have very vague memories of the Hubbard crash. My father was on the track crew at Reading and talked several times over the years about how horrific the Hubbard crash was. Hubbard's car that he was killed in was owned by a guy named Bob Seidel from Boyertown, Pa. Seidel never returned to Reading after Hubbard was killed in his car.

Kinda weird that Hubbard was included in the cards, since he did not even run any Champ Car races in 1976.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by phlflyer1

Don't know how I missed this thread until now but, since its been brought back to the top, I have to post the following Richard Petty item. My father was a huge Petty fan so I became one as well growing up.

The picture is from a 1971 race won by Petty that my father took our family to back when they raced at Trenton, NJ. My father took the photo at the end of the race when Pettys car was in victory lane. Sometime during the 1980s I found an address for Petty Enterprises and sent it hoping to get it signed.

It wasn't long before it came back with Pettys unmistakable autograph along with a nice note that seeing the photo brought back good memories as he enjoyed racing at that track before it was closed.

Thanks for posting that Richard Petty photo and sharing that story, Scott. Good stuff. Wonder how many autographs Petty has signed over the past 60 years?

[Justus]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I am glad to see the thread coming back to life. I don't have any information to add on the Andretti card that Justus posted. The card looks like some kind of handout to hype the Champ Car race at Pocono that year.

I was able to find a site online that showed nine of the cards, but does not list any other information.

http://3-2-1indycar.blogspot.com/201...ck-friday.html

Thanks Eddie! You are wealth of racing knowledge. Of the 9 cards shown on your link, I only have Andretti, Foyt, and Bobby Unser. I also have Bettenhousen, Johncock, Kinser, McCluskey, Rutherford, Al Unser, Vukovich, and Walther.

I love a good hunt and you've given me at least 6 more. Thanks for the info!

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Justus

Thanks Eddie! You are wealth of racing knowledge. Of the 9 cards shown on your link, I only have Andretti, Foyt, and Bobby Unser. I also have Bettenhousen, Johncock, Kinser, McCluskey, Rutherford, Al Unser, Vukovich, and Walther.

I love a good hunt and you've given me at least 6 more. Thanks for the info!

Wow, when I found that link showing nine cards, I figured those drivers were included in the 11 you have. Wonder how many cards were issued? The Pocono race started 33 cars that year. I had never previously read anything about those cards, nor seen them before.

A couple other points about Johnny Hubbard: Sadly, he was decapitated in the crash that took his life. I read Lew Boyd's excellent book on Dick "Toby" Tobias that came out in 2017. The book makes brief reference to the Hubbard crash. After the crash, Hubbard's car was taken to the Reading infield and left there while the show continued.

Tobias then went and looked at the car to see what had failed structurally. Tobias looked inside the car, then instructed one of his crew guys to get a tarp to cover the car with, saying "No one should have to look at that."

I remember my father saying how sad it was to see Hubbard's personal vehicle sitting alone in the Reading Fairgrounds parking several days after the race.

[Theodderthebetter]

I want to add to the thread. I have 32 different Schaefer 500 cards with a few autographed. They are very hard to find and I think businesses gave them away. I have 2 cards with woolworth of Allentown Pa. stamp on the back. It took me almost 30 years and buying them when i saw them to aquire the 32 different cards. Scott

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Theodderthebetter

I want to add to the thread. I have 32 different Schaefer 500 cards with a few autographed. They are very hard to find and I think businesses gave them away. I have 2 cards with woolworth of Allentown Pa. stamp on the back. It took me almost 30 years and buying them when i saw them to aquire the 32 different cards. Scott

Wow, awesome post. I would not have ever guessed there were so many cards. I guess that makes sense, though, since the existence of a Johnny Hubbard car shows the set included some pretty obscure drivers who made limited Champ Car starts.

[Justus]

Originally Posted by Theodderthebetter

I want to add to the thread. I have 32 different Schaefer 500 cards with a few autographed. They are very hard to find and I think businesses gave them away. I have 2 cards with woolworth of Allentown Pa. stamp on the back. It took me almost 30 years and buying them when i saw them to aquire the 32 different cards. Scott

Wow, that is cool! Do you have a list of them you could copy to here? I'd love to have a complete list. Thanks!

[Theodderthebetter]

i"ll see what I can do this weekend. I think they are way undervalued because so few people know they exist.

[Theodderthebetter]

Here are the cards i have: Andretti,G. Bettenhausen,Bigelow,Pancho Carter,Dallenbach,Foyt,Spike Gehlhausen,BobHarkey,Hubbard,Johncock,Sheldon Kinser,Lee Kunzman,Steve Krisiloff,Al lquasto,Larry McCoy,John Martin,Mike Mosley,jim McElreath,Johnny Parsons,Eldon Rasmussen,Johnny Rutherford,Lloyd Ruby,Tom Sneva,George Snider,Salt Walther,Al Unser,Bubby Unser,Bill Vukovich,Jerry Karl,Roger McCluskey,Bill Puterbaugh,Dick Simon,

[Justus]

Thank you! So many to find now, LOL.

[Jobu]

Here's a Type 1 of HOFer Earl Cooper at the 1916 Vanderbilt Cup.

[Bored5000]

I won an auction on Sunday for a set of 31 cards very similar to Justus' "Allentown Week of Wheels" cards pictured a few days ago in this thread. The weird thing about the set I won is that the cards are labeled as being from 1975 and labeled as being a "Wilkes Barre Schaefer 500 salute."

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-1975-P...AAAOSw86dexBiq

The images look to be the same as the Allentown cards. From what i could see, new cards not previously known are Sammy Sessions, Mike Hiss, Bentley Warren, Jimmy Carruthers and Mel Kenyon.

The closing auction price really shocked me: $39.43 with just one other bidder besides myself above $13. I thought the cards may close at least somewhere in the neighborhood of the Marhoefer cards when those come up for auction. I wasn't expecting the price to be just over $1 a card.

The appearance of a different set of cards carrying advertising for Wilkes Barre, Pa., makes me wonder if the cards were exclusive to Woolworth's. That chain was huge in the 1970s, and Wikipedia says they did have a store in Wilkes Barre in addition to Allentown, Pa.

[Justus]

Way to go, Eddie! Do you think this set has more than 31 cards? The 1976 set has 32 known (thanks Scott!) cards.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Justus

Way to go, Eddie! Do you think this set has more than 31 cards? The 1976 set has 32 known (thanks Scott!) cards.

I don't know. I have wondered that myself. Thirty-one cards is a lot to be together in one group if that does not even include all the drivers. I also wonder if some of the drivers were replaced for 1976?

Mel Kenyon being included seems even more amazing to me than Johnny Hubbard being included in both sets. Kenyon ran one Champ Car race in 1974, none in 1975 and one in 1976. It blows my mind that a guy who ran a total of one Champ Car race in 1974-75 has a card in the 1975 set at a minimum.

I am just blown away by how large the sets are. and how obscure some of the drivers included are, compared to the Marhoefer sets from a decade earlier and the STP NASCAR set from just a few years earlier.

[Theodderthebetter]

Nice find Eddie. I don't know if this helps or not but the images are the same as the 1976 cards. Again I think the value is so low because no one knows they exist. I would not be surprised if the images use are from press kits of a press release for the race.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Theodderthebetter

Nice find Eddie. I don't know if this helps or not but the images are the same as the 1976 cards. Again I think the value is so low because no one knows they exist. I would not be surprised if the images use are from press kits of a press release for the race.

Thanks for the kind words, Scott.

[Bored5000]

I have received the 1975 "Wilkes Barre Schaefer 500" cards in the mail. In addition to the five drivers I listed earlier in the thread, Bill Simpson is another addition that is not known to be in the 1976 set.

Here is the 31-driver 1975 checklist thus far:

Bill Simpson, A.J. Foyt, Mario Andretti, Al Unser, Bobby Unser, Gordon Johncock, Gary Bettenhausen, Johnny Rutherford, Wally Dallenbach, Bill Vukovich, Joe Leonard, Tom Sneva, Jim McElreath, Jimmy Caruthers, Roger McCluskey, Mike Hiss, Jerry Karl, George Snider, Mel Kenyon, John Martin, Lloyd Ruby, Salt Walther, Sammy Sessions, Lee Kunzman, Mike Mosley, Bentley Warren, Steve Krisiloff, Duane Carter Jr., Johnny Parsons, Tom Bigelow and Johnny Hubbard.

[Justus]

Thanks for the list, Eddie. Bobbie Allison was in that race, it would be cool if a 32nd card turned up and it was him. Always one of my favorites.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Justus

Thanks for the list, Eddie. Bobbie Allison was in that race, it would be cool if a 32nd card turned up and it was him. Always one of my favorites.

Glad to help. If some of the cards were changed for the '76 set, I am surprised there is apparently not a Janet Guthrie card. Maybe the timeline was just too tight, however. There was a ton of buzz/controversy surrounding her in '76; she passed her rookie test at Indy that year and was in the field at the Pocono race in '76.

[Bored5000]

I know PWCC auction results should be taken with a grain of salt at times, but the PSA 5 1972 STP Petty that ended a few days ago had strong interest, closing at $356 with four bidders over $300. It wasn't that long ago that a mid-grade Petty was a $125-150 card.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-Racing...C/143632746648

[Beansballcardblog]

I want to own just one card from this set, but it's not been on my radar, yet. Have you seen other recent sales that might be more accurate? Not following them, I'm not too surprised to see $356 (for a PWCC auction), but I may be off base.

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I know PWCC auction results should be taken with a grain of salt at times, but the PSA 5 1972 STP Petty that ended a few days ago had strong interest, closing at $356 with four bidders over $300. It wasn't that long ago that a mid-grade Petty was a $125-150 card.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-Racing...C/143632746648

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Beansballcardblog

I want to own just one card from this set, but it's not been on my radar, yet. Have you seen other recent sales that might be more accurate? Not following them, I'm not too surprised to see $356 (for a PWCC auction), but I may be off base.

A PSA 4 Petty that was part of a lot that also included cards of Mario Andretti, Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna sold for $270 a couple months ago at Love of the Game auctions. That sale probably puts the Petty card at more realistic $125-150 valuation, IMO.

http://loveofthegameauctions.com/PSA...-LOT20906.aspx

If you are just looking for a random card from the 1972 STP set, Buddy Baker and Elmo Langley are your best bet. That are, by far, the most common cards in the set and can be found in the $20-25 range if you keep your eye out on eBay. Don't pay $50+ for a Baker or Langley card that has been sitting on eBay for a while. Those two drivers do come up at cheaper prices on eBay fairly frequently. A couple Bakers even went for under $15 in recent months.

[Justus]

I agree with Eddie, the $356 seems strong. But I think the Love of the Game lot was very low (and overlooked/missed) for the cards included.

Maybe the STPs are starting to catch some of the major sport craze going on right now.

[Justus]

[QUOTE=Bored5000;1994418]A PSA 4 Petty that was part of a lot that also included cards of Mario Andretti, Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna sold for $270 a couple months ago at Love of the Game auctions. That sale probably puts the Petty card at more realistic $125-150 valuation, IMO.

http://loveofthegameauctions.com/PSA...-LOT20906.aspx

Hey Eddie, I just found this. The PSA 4 from the LOTG auction sold on ebay for $400 on 5/24. Wow, maybe we are behind the times on the values of these cards.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-Stp-Ri...p2047675.l2557

[Bored5000]

[QUOTE=Justus;1994633]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

A PSA 4 Petty that was part of a lot that also included cards of Mario Andretti, Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna sold for $270 a couple months ago at Love of the Game auctions. That sale probably puts the Petty card at more realistic $125-150 valuation, IMO.

http://loveofthegameauctions.com/PSA...-LOT20906.aspx

Hey Eddie, I just found this. The PSA 4 from the LOTG auction sold on ebay for $400 on 5/24. Wow, maybe we are behind the times on the values of these cards.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-Stp-Ri...p2047675.l2557

Oh, jeez. That used to be my card. At one point, I had three Petty cards from buying different lots trying to put a set together. I received a PM from a member on here a couple years ago asking if I had an extra Petty. I am pretty sure I sold it for $125. I missed it getting resold on eBay. Some profit and three free cards to boot from the auction price at LotG.

A few more months and the Schaefer 500 cards should be going for $100 each.

[Bored5000]

I was watching the four different lots of T36 auto drivers that were auctioned off last night at vintagenonsports.com, but did not put in any bids. I wish I would have picked up a set of T36s a few years ago, before the prices escalated.

The four lots at auction last night were broken down by factory and brand. I am not a condition snob, but so many of those cards last night were really in rough shape. Altogether, 132 cards were sold in the four lots. I 'd like to pick up a basic 25-card set; there was just so much rattiness and extraneous cards in those lots last night.

https://auctions.vintagenonsports.co...o-LOT4294.aspx

https://auctions.vintagenonsports.co...f-LOT4295.aspx

https://auctions.vintagenonsports.co...o-LOT4292.aspx

https://auctions.vintagenonsports.co..._-LOT4293.aspx

[nsaddict]

On the other side of the spectrum Eddie, a seller On the bay just listed a 5.5 single for 1200 !

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

On the other side of the spectrum Eddie, a seller On the bay just listed a 5.5 single for 1200 !

I know Lancia is tough in the T36s, but wow. A Lancia PSA 4 just sold for $143 on eBay a few weeks ago. LOL When I saw your post, I figured it was an Oldfield card.

[Beansballcardblog]

I completely missed out on these and hate myself for it. Even in rough shape, a couple of the lots ended at under $10 a card (I don't know what the BP is there, though), which is a steal considering how these cards have sold the last handful of year.

Then again, I say that as a guy that's not a condition freak. When it comes to cards like this, I just want the cards (at the right price).

I'm going to be beating myself up for weeks, maybe months, over missing out on these.

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I was watching the four different lots of T36 auto drivers that were auctioned off last night at vintagenonsports.com, but did not put in any bids. I wish I would have picked up a set of T36s a few years ago, before the prices escalated.

The four lots at auction last night were broken down by factory and brand. I am not a condition snob, but so many of those cards last night were really in rough shape. Altogether, 132 cards were sold in the four lots. I 'd like to pick up a basic 25-card set; there was just so much rattiness and extraneous cards in those lots last night.

https://auctions.vintagenonsports.co...o-LOT4294.aspx

https://auctions.vintagenonsports.co...f-LOT4295.aspx

https://auctions.vintagenonsports.co...o-LOT4292.aspx

https://auctions.vintagenonsports.co..._-LOT4293.aspx

[Beansballcardblog]

Yeah, this one popped up for me. I just wanna know what that guy is on.

Originally Posted by nsaddict

On the other side of the spectrum Eddie, a seller On the bay just listed a 5.5 single for 1200 !

[RCMcKenzie]

Whoa, that 5.5 is nice! I hope he auctions it off. I have the T36 set and am not going for a master set. I am trying to gradually upgrade. I was watching Tom's auction, and almost bid, as the factory 30's are tough, but I just didn't need all those dupes. Rob

[teza11]

I'm the buyer of all 4 "ratty" T36 lots last night. This series is really hot in any condition right now. I could not pass-up building my inventory as you rarely find these in quantities like this. There are happy buyers on both ends of the quality spectrum.

Jeff

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by teza11

I'm the buyer of all 4 "ratty" T36 lots last night. This series is really hot in any condition right now. I could not pass-up building my inventory as you rarely find these in quantities like this. There are happy buyers on both ends of the quality spectrum.

Jeff

Glad to see a board member pick up the T36s. I apologize if I offended with my earlier comment; that was not my intent at all. I am largely a low grade collector myself, so I should not have been so flippant.

[teza11]

No offense taken. I actually thought it was pretty funny.

Jeff

[lumberjack]

I collect original photos. Baseball is my main interest, but I have picked up about a dozen vintage prints c. 1915-1925 that I would like to sell. I realize most of these comments are about cards, but maybe someone on this thread likes photos. This stuff isn't easy to come by.
lumberjack

[Beansballcardblog]

Congrats, Jeff....you got a steal.

Originally Posted by teza11

I'm the buyer of all 4 "ratty" T36 lots last night. This series is really hot in any condition right now. I could not pass-up building my inventory as you rarely find these in quantities like this. There are happy buyers on both ends of the quality spectrum.

Jeff

[Beansballcardblog]

Interesting that you mentioned that Factory 30s are tough. Is this something that others have noticed and/or is this a widely held view?

I have the complete front run and have 58 of 100 backs.

I had noticed that I had less 30s, but it wasn't an alarming difference. My set breakdown (I have eight multiples that I'm not counting in these numbers):

Hassan 30 - 10
Hassan 649 - 17
Mecca 30 - 13
Mecca 649 - 18

I love seeing some new names in the thread with an interest in the set (even if it's costing me more and taking me more time LOL).

-kin

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Whoa, that 5.5 is nice! I hope he auctions it off. I have the T36 set and am not going for a master set. I am trying to gradually upgrade. I was watching Tom's auction, and almost bid, as the factory 30's are tough, but I just didn't need all those dupes. Rob

[Bored5000]

I want to give a huge recommendation to Charles Leerhsen's 2012 book "Blood and Smoke: A True Tale of Mystery, Mayhem and the Birth of the Indy 500." Even though the book was released in print in 2012, it was just made available as an audiobook earlier this month. For collectors of the T36 set, this book is a treasure trove when it comes to learning about the drivers included in that set.

https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Smoke-M...s=books&sr=1-1

I am only about 1/4 of the way through listening to the audiobook (and have not even reached the start of the first Indy 500), and I have already learned tons of interesting stories about numerous T36 drivers. For example:

* Barney Oldfield, unquestionably the biggest star of auto racing's early days, rationalized that the frightful dangers of 1910s racing sure beat the alternative:

"I would rather be dead than dead broke," Oldfield was fond of saying.

* "Smiling George" Robertson was known to motivate his pit crew to work faster by getting out of his car and hitting them with wrenches during lengthy pit stops. Robertson was also alleged to have thrown wrenches out of his car at drivers attempting to pass him. Robertson admitted to the first charge, but vehemently denied the second accusation. To make his point, Robertson picked up a bucket of bolts and explained:

"This is what I use," said Robertson. "They are cheaper and work just as good. I might need the wrench for something else."

True to his nickname, Robertson is shown sporting a huge smile on his T36 card.

* French driver Victor Hemery was known as "The Surly One" due to his less than pleasant personality.

* David Bruce-Brown was an heir to the Lorillard's tobacco fortune. For card collectors, Lorillard's is known for their 1887 set of boxing cards.

* Italian born Ralph DePalma was almost always stereotyped in newspapers with Italian tropes of the day. For example, newspapers often wrote that DePalma preferred beating Oldfield on the track even above eating five plates of spaghetti.

* Lewis Strang, who was the nephew of fellow T36 driver Walter Christie, was killed is a road accident when his car overturned in a ditch at the breakneck speed of five miles per hour as Strang was trying to avoid an oncoming farmer. Strang would frequently carry coins in his pocket so that he could toss the change in the air and make a quick getaway from adoring fans as the crowd scattered to grab the money off the ground.

* The aforementioned Walter Christie's lasting legacy was as a tank designer for the Russian and British armies during World War II. During his racing career, Christie often drove a controversial twin-engine car that allowed the machine to operate in both front- and rear-wheel drive. The unique vehicle was frequently disqualified before a race even began, however, if the promoter actually cared about enforcing the "stock" rules of entries.

[Bored5000]

Wow, did anyone else notice the raw 1972 STP Petty auction that ended tonight on eBay -- $1,225 final hammer price with four bidders over $522?

Only a few years ago, this was a $125-150 card. I sold two of my three Petty STP cards 3-4 years ago for 10 percent of what that auction ended at tonight. Wonder what a Lorenzen with car would go for right now?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-STP-Ri...QAAOSwZzNfnykX

[Justus]

Eddie, I saw that and was shocked! Maybe it's time to sell my extra (from you, if my memory serves me).

An Allison sold the other night for $100 or best offer. Had a tack hole. I thought the price was right or even a little high for an Allison with a tack hole.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-STP-1-...app-cvip-panel

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Justus

Eddie, I saw that and was shocked! Maybe it's time to sell my extra (from you, if my memory serves me).

An Allison sold the other night for $100 or best offer. Had a tack hole. I thought the price was right or even a little high for an Allison with a tack hole.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-STP-1-...app-cvip-panel

I only saw that Allison card a few minutes ago when I was looking at the sold listings. I missed it when was it was listed prior to the sale. For $100 or BO, I thought that was kinda cheap for how tough Allison is in the set. I didn't realize how tough Allison is in the set until you clued me in a few years ago, and you are right that his card very rarely surfaces for sale.

If I didn't have an Allison card, I would have been all over that for $100 -- even with the tack hole.

[Arazi4442]

I was watching that auction as well. I figured to blow everyone out of the water with my bid of $300 or so. . A number of the non big 4 sport cards have been exploding along with the basketball and football Covid craze. Solid sale price on tha Lampo Clay that ended tonight as well.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Arazi4442

I was watching that auction as well. I figured to blow everyone out of the water with my bid of $300 or so. . A number of the non big 4 sport cards have been exploding along with the basketball and football Covid craze. Solid sale price on tha Lampo Clay that ended tonight as well.

One of the other non big four cards that has really exploded lately is the Wrestling All-Stars Hulk Hogan card. I am amazed at what even mid grade examples of that card are selling for these days. Net54's DPeck has to be sitting on a mountain of money just off his horde of Hogan cards.

[Bored5000]

The current REA auction contains one of racing's great rarities, the T227 Bruce Brown card. In a matter of hours, the card skyrocketed from $200 to $6,000 with the BP. So very cool to see a card of a very obscure racer already blow away what a Ty Cobb card from the same set in PSA 2 sells for. Really, there is no comparison between Ty Cobb and a Bruce Brown card.

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...e?itemid=82104

PSA has only graded four examples of the Brown card,and speculation is that card was pulled shortly after release due to Brown's death. The Bruce Brown card is a major impediment for anyone trying to put together a T227 set, and several T227 collectors on here have stated in the past that they had not seen one for sale or at auction in decades.

I would love to have such a rare racing card, but it is already out of my budget for a single card. In the current price environment, wonder where this will end up?

[nsaddict]

I fully agree. I’d take Bruce over a 52T Mick any day of the week. Much scarcer than “the” Wagner!

[Bored5000]

Wow, the Brown card is already at $18,000 with the BP.

[ezez420]

And expect it to go a lot higher. This card is a $50k card


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[Republicaninmass]

Cant imagine who the consignor might be.

[ezez420]

Well it’s not me. I have one already.


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