Who is the greatest player of the Pre-War Era?

[Eric72]

Sorry..trying this again.

[RCMcKenzie]

Purely for the sake of argument, I was going to say Cy Young, and went to baseball reference to find a stat to back up my claim. This was the first stat I looked at, the all-time WAR stat (Wins against replacement), it does not support my argument, but almost did.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...R_career.shtml

[Eric72]

Thanks for the early votes, everybody. I am going to give this a few bumps to push it past the earlier thread...which did not include the poll.

My apologies for those who posted there. I tried to get the poll linked onto this thread. For some reason, it did not take.

Best,

Eric

[ethicsprof]

greatest player if we're talkin' stats and nothing else.

all the best,
barry

[Tobacco&Gum]

Hammerin' Hank missed the list?

Even if you take away ALL of his homers, he still has over 3000 hits!

Not sure if he's the best (I voted Ruth), but Hank needs to be considered IMHO.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Tobacco&Gum

Hammerin' Hank missed the list?

Even if you take away ALL of his homers, he still has over 3000 hits!

Not sure if he's the best (I voted Ruth), but Hank needs to be considered IMHO.

Vince,

Agreed...Aaron was one helluva a ballplayer.

Best,

Eric

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by ethicsprof

greatest player if we're talkin' stats and nothing else.

all the best,
barry

Barry,

Please accept my sincerest thanks for you weighing in here.

Best Regards,

Eric

[itjclarke]

Ruth is a no doubter in my mind, no one ever single handedly changed the game like he did... maybe in any sport? Wilt Chamberlain maybe close? The pitching record and WS pitching records are just icing on the cake. Cobb 1a by himself.. then other top 10-20 types like Wagner, Mays (maybe best 5 tooler ever), WaJo, Matty, Hornsby, Williams, Musial, Speaker, E Collins, Aaron, Bonds, etc in a 2 category (2nd tier not in any particular order, and not complete in any way)

[Sean]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Ruth is a no doubter in my mind, no one ever single handedly changed the game like he did... maybe in any sport? Wilt Chamberlain maybe close? The pitching record and WS pitching records are just icing on the cake. Cobb 1a by himself.. then other top 10-20 types like Wagner, Mays (maybe best 5 tooler ever), WaJo, Matty, Hornsby, Williams, Musial, Speaker, E Collins, Aaron, Bonds, etc in a 2 category (2nd tier not in any particular order, and not complete in any way)

Not only is Ruth #1, but whoever you put second (Cobb, Mays, or Wagner), the #2 player will be closer to the #20 player than to Ruth.

[Shoele$$]

What always struck me about Ruth was when he was pitching, he had a fairly slender athletic body that was better suited for being an all around baseball player with base running and stealing in mind. Then when he became a hitter and switched to the outfield, his body turned into a slow, sloppy, overweight pitcher's body. That extra weight did probably help with power behind his swing, but I just wonder how good he could have been had he possessed the body and speed to be an all around ball player like Cobb and Wagner. Hmmm....

[doug.goodman]

We all know all about Ruth hitting a few homers, having a .342 lifetime average, a couple other things at the plate, all of which make him a candidate, based on hitting.

When you add in his 2.28 lifetime ERA with 97 pitching victories, including his 3-0 record in the World Series (with one of those WS wins being a 14 inning complete game), are we really still thinking about anybody else?

Doug

[rcp1936]

Well I read that Branch Rickey who saw all the great ones play up to and including Aaron Mays Mantle Williams Musial said that if he was starting a team
the first player he would pick was Wagner

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by rcp1936

Well I read that Branch Rickey who saw all the great ones play up to and including Aaron Mays Mantle Williams Musial said that if he was starting a team
the first player he would pick was Wagner

To be fair Wagner is also almost always up there with Cobb and Ruth as top 3 players of all time.

[Brendan]

Well, there's really not much doubt in my mind that it's Ruth. Over the years, I've found the primary reasons some people disagree with this is:

• They don't like his homerun, power hitting style of play. Furthermore, all the photos they see of him is when he's old and out of shape and they discount him because "no way some old fat guy can be the greatest player ever."
• They claim he wasn't an all-around player. Well, call me crazy, but I never saw Willie Mays go 94-46 as a pitcher.
• Because he is always assumed to be the best player ever by the majority of credible baseball analysts and historians today, people pick someone else to be a contrarian and/or unique. Rather than just mindlessly following the pack, they bring up some other player who had a great career. Issue is, these careers simply don't compare to Ruth's.
• They make some excuse for some older player about them not playing in the live ball era.

As far as the best pitcher ever, I personally go with Cy Young. People seem to discount him for some reason, but when you look at his numbers, they're just incredible. I'm sure Walter Johnson was a great pitcher, but in a direct comparison, Cy Young has got to be the pick.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Brendan

Well, there's really not much doubt in my mind that it's Ruth. Over the years, I've found the primary reasons some people disagree with this is:

• They don't like his homerun, power hitting style of play. Furthermore, all the photos they see of him is when he's old and out of shape and they discount him because "no way some old fat guy can be the greatest player ever."
• Because he is always assumed to be the best player ever by the majority of credible baseball analysts and historians today, people pick someone else to be a contrarian and/or unique. Rather than just mindlessly following the pack, they bring up some other player who had a great career. Issue is, these careers simply don't compare to Ruth's.
• They make some excuse for some older player about them not playing in the live ball era.

As far as the best pitcher ever, I personally go with Cy Young. People seem to discount him for some reason, but when you look at his numbers, they're just incredible. I'm sure Walter Johnson was a great pitcher, but in a direct comparison, Cy Young has got to be the pick.

Ughhh, not worth arguing again...

[CMIZ5290]

Why is Frank Baker even on the ballot?

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Ughhh, not worth arguing again...

Seems like that's kind of the point of every "Who is the greatest player ever thread?" What purpose does a thread like this serve, other than to open up discussions and arguments about who the greatest player ever is?

[sayheykid54]

The greatest player of the Dead Ball era is without question Ty Cobb.

Babe Ruth technically wouldn't qualify as a possibility as he played MOST of his career post Dead Ball era with a different baseball. Babe Ruth should be taken off this list. His numbers with Boston as a hitter during the Dead Ball era weren't even close to Cobb's during the years the Dead Ball was being used.

In the Dead ball era the best Home run hitters would have only 12-14 homers per year. From 1900 to 1920 there were 13 home run champs that had fewer than 10 home runs in a season.

During the years that Ty Cobb played during the Dead Ball era he led the lead in hitting 12 out of 15 years. Unbelievable!!!!!!

[howard38]

/

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I am extremely surprised, more or less dissappointed with this 'list'.

You have Hornsby (not even close to top 10), same for Jackson, Baker isn't even top 30, Josh Gibson (come on), and no Bonds, or Mays?...interesting...is this like the greatest pre-war player of all-time? If so, then your list is justified.

[auggiedoggy]

Anyone who smoked too much, drank too much, partied too much and rarely, if ever, worked out and could still put up the numbers Ruth did deserves the honour!

[insidethewrapper]

I'll go with the BBWAA who voted for the first class of HOF'ers in 1936. This was right after Ruth's career and since everyone hated Cobb (according to current belief, though he helped a lot of players with fiancial problems). The top 3 vote getters from the 226 writers were : 1) Cobb 222, 2) Ruth 215 and 3) Wagner 215. These voters were from the same era. Hard to believe with Cobb's reputation, he still received the most votes. He must have been "one hell of a player ". He gets my vote.

[g_vezina_c55]

My vote : Ruth

[FrankWakefield]

Wagner

As a kid I would have said Ruth... I didn't see them play. I did read Mr Ritter's book, The Glory Of Their Times, listened to the album, and have repeatedly listened to the CD's that have more material. I've read old, contemporary articles in old Baseball Magazines. Again and again, from the minds of the people that played with Ruth, Cobb, Young, Mathewson, Johnson, Jackson, Lajoie, and the rest, the player that rises to the top is Honus Wagner. Branch Rickey knew a right smart about baseball, he says Wagner. Sam Crawford played beside Cobb and he says it was Wagner. I'm inclined to believe the many who were there and oughta know.

Aaron was a great player, but he didn't have much of an impact on baseball in the Pre War era. Neither did Mays. Pre-War.

[obcbobd]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

I'll go with the BBWAA who voted for the first class of HOF'ers in 1936. This was right after Ruth's career and since everyone hated Cobb (according to current belief, though he helped a lot of players with fiancial problems). The top 3 vote getters from the 226 writers were : 1) Cobb 222, 2) Ruth 215 and 3) Wagner 215. These voters were from the same era. Hard to believe with Cobb's reputation, he still received the most votes. He must have been "one hell of a player ". He gets my vote.

I think many of these writers were from the "small ball" era and worshiped Ty, who exemplified everything good about that style of play. Then along comes Babe, and suddenlty everything changes. I am not surprised that 7 or these writers would vote for Ty and not Ruth, almost as a way to say if was better back in my day.

Of more interest would be the 215 who voted for Babe, Honus and Ty. How would they rank them 1-2-3?

[SteveMitchell]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

I'll go with the BBWAA who voted for the first class of HOF'ers in 1936. This was right after Ruth's career and since everyone hated Cobb (according to current belief, though he helped a lot of players with fiancial problems). The top 3 vote getters from the 226 writers were : 1) Cobb 222, 2) Ruth 215 and 3) Wagner 215. These voters were from the same era. Hard to believe with Cobb's reputation, he still received the most votes. He must have been "one hell of a player ". He gets my vote.

Can't argue with this logic except to say the BBWAA gets the easy picks and leaves the tougher ones for other committees. Consequently, I don't put great stock in that esteemed body. Still, Cobb was detested by many and still earned first place on the initial ballot. (I wonder if he would even get 75% from today's BBWAA?)

My vote went to Babe Ruth.

[Leon]

A lot of knowledgeable baseball guys and girls on this board. Look at the voting. Believe it. My vote, Ruth, Ruth Ruth........ then everyone else, for all of the reasons mentioned.

[EvilKing00]

was an easy choice

[RedlegsFan]

Overall, factoring everything, I have to say PETE ROSE would be the royal flush of all picks. I need not mention his stats, they are obviously epic. Best in recorded baseball history. He played nearly every position, and was captain of the only team to ever be compared with the 1927 Yankees, the 75 Reds.
But, as an overall American icon, I must mention Teddy Williams.

Wes

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by RedlegsFan

Overall, factoring everything, I have to say PETE ROSE would be the royal flush of all picks. I need not mention his stats, they are obviously epic. Best in recorded baseball history. He played nearly every position, and was captain of the only team to ever be compared with the 1927 Yankees, the 75 Reds.
But, as an overall American icon, I must mention Teddy Williams.

Wes

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2

NO

[Sean]

Originally Posted by RedlegsFan

Overall, factoring everything, I have to say PETE ROSE would be the royal flush of all picks. I need not mention his stats, they are obviously epic. Best in recorded baseball history. He played nearly every position, and was captain of the only team to ever be compared with the 1927 Yankees, the 75 Reds.
But, as an overall American icon, I must mention Teddy Williams.

Wes

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2

Seriously, the Reds are the only team compared to the Yankees. I've watched baseball since the mid-sixties. The only team comparable to the "27 Yanks is the 1998 Yankees.
The Reds did have a great team, but Rose was the third best player on that team (after Joe Morgan and Johhny Bench).
And if you think Rose's stats are the best in history, I think you should expand your view of history.

[RedlegsFan]

It's not rocket science. I know Pete is not a favorite because of what he is. Ruth and Cobb died before most people here in this forum were even born. I get it. There's nothing complicated about 4256. The thread says best "baseball player." Not most honorable, dynamic, pitcher, runner, coach, donator, war hero, etc. . . . To play "base" ball, the player has to hit the ball, be hit by the ball, or walked, to get on "base." This is what Rose did, very simple, "hit the basball and run to the base before getting "out"," And he did this more than any other player in history. I guess I just thought 4189 of Cobb's wasn't that close to 4256. Aaron did it 3771. I can't boast watching baseball since forever, but I can say the recorded stats are facts, even if the record holders are of questionable integrity. I "bet" you can't find somebody that has "hit" a baseball more than Rose.

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[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by RedlegsFan

The thread says best "baseball player." Not most honorable, dynamic, pitcher, runner, coach, donator, war hero, etc. . . . To play "base" ball, the player has to hit the ball, be hit by the ball, or walked, to get on "base."

I'm sorry, but I don't think you have a damn clue what baseball is, or what you're talking about. Baseball isn't just about your ridiculous post above. Don't forget fielding/defense buddy, because you clearly don't see that value. Hitting 'aint everything. Being the best baseball player, you need to do it all. And Rose was no defensive whiz.

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by RedlegsFan

It's not rocket science. I know Pete is not a favorite because of what he is. Ruth and Cobb died before most people here in this forum were even born. I get it. There's nothing complicated about 4256. The thread says best "baseball player." Not most honorable, dynamic, pitcher, runner, coach, donator, war hero, etc. . . . To play "base" ball, the player has to hit the ball, be hit by the ball, or walked, to get on "base." This is what Rose did, very simple, "hit the basball and run to the base before getting "out"," And he did this more than any other player in history. I guess I just thought 4189 of Cobb's wasn't that close to 4256. Aaron did it 3771. I can't boast watching baseball since forever, but I can say the recorded stats are facts, even if the record holders are of questionable integrity. I "bet" you can't find somebody that has "hit" a baseball more than Rose.

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Actually the name of the thread was changed to best Prewar player.

You're utterly spurious in your ASSumption of HITs being the most important aspect of baseball. It is runs. Considering how many precious hits Rose had he still had less scored runs then Ruth or Aaron. Rose also barely makes it into the top 100 for RBIs, Yount and Pudge have more.

If Aaron wanted to he could have had 4300 hits while batting over .330. He choose instead to hit for power instead of slapping singles.

Ichiro and Pujols are better then Rose.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Jlighter

If Aaron wanted to he could have had 4300 hits while batting over .330. He choose instead to hit for power instead of slapping singles.

Jake,

Hank was an overwhelmed kid who broke into the majors hitting cross-handed and actually turned down an offer from the Giants. Had he played for roughly twenty years in the same lineup as Willie Mays, perhaps this conversation would be completely different. He might have had the luxury of hitting .330 and amassing power numbers beyond comprehension...with Mays on the basepaths.

Just my humble opinion here...that would have been one amazing outfield. Aaron, Mays, McCovey.

Best Regards,

Eric

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Eric72

...that would have been one amazing outfield. Aaron, Mays, McCovey.

I love how loaded that Giant team was. McCovey "Stretch" only played outfield because another HOFer, Orlando Cepeda had beaten him to the bigs by a year. Plus you had Marichal/Perry/McCormick (Cy winner)/Jack Sanford pitching. Those guys could just never get over the hump.

Re- Hank vs Willie. I'll never take anything away from Aaron, but he played several years in "the launching pad".. While Mays had to play over a decade in windy Candlestick, before they closed the stadium with an outfield upper deck. That era pre-dates me, but supposedly that '60's Stick was one of the toughest places to hit bombs. Mays, had he not lost virtually two years to military service, and had he played in a hitter friendly park, undoubtedly would have hit more than 700.. And likely passed Ruth first.

[CMIZ5290]

Great thread Eric, I do think Mathewson has to be considered especially if pitchers are allowed into the discussion. His stats are pretty remarkable as are Walter Johnson's.....What amazes me is what Cobb's stats were against Johnson, later on in his career he had amazing success against him....

[ethicsprof]

I must say that your moderation of this thread has been masterful.
Your advocacy for civility and scholarly dialogue is most refreshing.
all the best,
barry

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by ethicsprof

I must say that your moderation of this thread has been masterful.
Your advocacy for civility and scholarly dialogue is most refreshing.
all the best,
barry

Barry,

Please accept my sincere thanks for the kind words. Your feedback is truly appreciated.

Best Regards,

Eric

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by ethicsprof

I must say that your moderation of this thread has been masterful.
Your advocacy for civility and scholarly dialogue is most refreshing.
all the best,
barry

Well said, good work Eric. Threads like these could easily get out of hand, especially with polls. Way to keep level headed.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Well said, good work Eric. Threads like these could easily get out of hand, especially with polls. Way to keep level headed.

Brent,

Many thanks. Your comments are well received and greatly appreciated.

Best Regards,

Eric

[flpm08]

Babe Ruth was the greatest player ever by far. When you combine his batting statistics with his pitching record no one comes close. The one statistic that amazes me was that in 1921 he hit more home run than any team combined. In today's game to accomplish the same feat a player would have to hit more than 200 home runs in a season. After Ruth, I would rank Cobb and then Mays. Rounding out the top ten would be Johnson, Aaron, Wagner, Williams, Gehrig, Musial and Mantle. For the next nine DiMaggio, Mathewson, Hornsby, Foxx, Speaker, Alexander, Grove, Frank Robinson and Young. For number 20 it could be Schmidt, Collins, Lajoie, Clemente, Bench or even Bonds.
You may ask why is Wagner ranked so high, because there really is no other shortstop near him at the game's most difficult position with the possible of catcher.

[SD]

Of course Cobb's colleagues, who played a decade before Ruth are going to go with their generation's star. Plus Ruth was primarily a pitcher for most of the dead ball era. Bottom line the stats don't lie.

Reality is Wagner had similar offensive production during the dead ball era and was hands down the best SS in baseball. Cobb wasn't even the best CF of his era (Speaker). SS is a much more premium position then CF. We know this by the lack of offensive production from SS in the HOF compared to OF. Cobb also played well into the live ball era while Wagner did not. Yet Cobb's only produced 3 seasons of 10 or more HR (12 2xs) towards the end of his career and he was no longer a great base stealing threat, getting caught about as frequently as he was successful. Regulating him to a station to station ball player towards the end.

Was Cobb the best singles hitter of his time, yes. Did his 76% successful base stealing ability allow him to dominate, yes. The total base aspect has to come into play. Ruth had more in alot fewer Ab's and his WAR reflects his value (183.1 to Cobb's 151.5). Ruth averaged a rbi 77% of the time he got a hit compared to 46% for Cobb. Runs are the most important thing in the game. No one drive in runs better then Babe.

I'll take Ruths total bases and RBIs in a shorter career over Cobb all day everyday. Cobb was great but his impact, by the numbers wasn't greater then Ruths. Why Ruth's WAR is the highest of all time.

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