Hobby Panic in 2009

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Posted By: Lance

I don't think anybody can insight more turbulance (sp?) and fury on the board with each and every post....except for, uhh, I think Leon got rid of the other Peter C., right?

...Let there be peace on Earth or absolute chaos....whatever.

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Posted By: joe brennan

Mathew, Extremely well thought out and interesting post.

"High end cards are truly tangible and in most cases have better name recognition and headline capacity than most fine art and other high end collectables."

But, This is a statement that you might want to retract. Baseball collectors are .0000000000000001% compared to the Art collecting world. If just one fine art collector decided to collect baseball cards and aggresively buy with their income, not one card would ever fall into your hands, Bruces or Jim's hands again. If he let one slip through it would be 100x's what you would be willing to pay. Our national sport has been around for 100 years. Collecting fine art has been around for a bit longer.

I do believe the name Rembrandt is more well known in this world than Wagner. We have one collectible worth over $1M while lesser known works of less famous artists reach this figure daily. To think your baseball collection will be valued more than museum pieces can not be coming from a person offering any sound financial advice.

As for the doom and gloom statement till 2015, don't hold your breath. Investors will be scooping up bargains and bolstering a slumping market with fresh money. Stocks at a bargain price will not sit their un bought. There will always be someone selling and someone looking to buy. Look for a turn around sooner than you think.

As for the crooks. Their have been crooks since the beginning of time and they will be exposed and the scheme will be uncovered. Pretty soon a new one will start. Jesse James made a living robbing trains and banks and I guess people are still coming up with ways of robbing banks, just not using guns any more. We will survive the latest bank robbers and continue to store our money there.

People and lending institutes that bought and loaned money for houses they could not afford were doomed to lose them from the beginning. Smart people still live in houses they could afford and will be able to afford through tough times. Just because your income increases doesn't mean you have to buy a bigger house every time you get a raise. Keeping up with the Jones is like showing your privates. Someone always has a bigger one. Kinda like some of the collectors that try to be whales. In the long run they are swallowed by a bigger fish.

Rest assured Mathew we will survive this. I just hope that with the doom a gloom attitudes and the hopes that the new adminstations fail, that some people are not advising people where to invest their money. I for one would not like to have my money in their hands.

I hope that you next post is as well written, but a little less fantasy.

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: BcD

How do you all live in such a small apartment together?
One you don't even own!

BcD

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Posted By: Matthew Pime

Joe,

My point is that there is a good possibility of a shift in perception in regards to high end tangible assets. Names such as Rembrandt, Warhol and Picasso will always have an inevitable following. Some of those effective 'tastes' will change for two reasons.

1. Classical culture in the arts isn't as appreciated in America as in prior decades. Much like coin collectors were positioned until the State Quarter phenomenon, the art crowd is largely an aging population. Unfortunately, fine art is not the media superstar it once was in prior decades. The multimedia experience of the 20th century further enhances future generations of high end collectors because they can better relate to what they have experienced firsthand. In the US, nostalgia is likely to play a increasing role in price, rather than obselete prestige.

That being said, I have dipped into the art market with Andy Warhol and Keith Haring. Their pieces sell well because of name recognition and the 'pop' nostalgia connected within. It's not the big names that will be affected- millions of dollars go into what I'd call 'fringe' art that is acquired for big numbers and has no 'name' behind it. Sure...you can like a piece or two...but to speculate on unknowns for big pricing is likely to fade in America. I believe acquired taste will almost completely be European driven in the coming decades.

Why...because people buy what they know, and what they like.

In regards to fantasy- I don't mean to be a 'party pooper', but its pretty ugly out there. The main problem is that the time value of money is at a standstill. We're also likely to see massive inflation as part of that recovery. I've been buying TIPS (Treasury Inflation Protected Bonds) as a hedge because of this assumption.

I do agree with Bruce in most cases. 'Depression' doesn't necessarily have to mean FDR policy and the 'Grapes of Wrath.' There are too many systems in place to have our cities overrun by massive homelessness and tumbleweeds flying through the streets. Things are tough, and most of it is by circumstance. He is right, because some will have to part with their most prized possessions to meet financial margin calls on their stock, real estate and business livelihoods.

...and this crazy situation has screwed many of those who suppossedly had 'recession proof businesses'

Think about this...oil has gone from $70 to $150 and back to $37 in just one year. That effects everyone. Airlines, municipalities and businesses abound locked in commodity contracts near the peaks because they were afraid it would go higher. Again, another economy killer because it all trickles down.

There are some that will be completely unaffected and may 'jump' economic classes simply by not being 'invested.' This could be the new wealth spectrum, and completely unlike previous 'rich' folk in prior generations. My guess is that their investments will be more simple than ever before.

MP

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Posted By: NickM

Other people have already answered the bankruptcy questions, but no one has really talked about seizure as part of criminal investigation.
There are 2 different types of seizure that could happen - seizure for the purpose of asset forfeiture or seizure for investigation/evidence gathering.

Seizure for the purpose of asset forfeiture would likely result in consignors having to hire lawyers to file claims to get their property back (I doubt most U.S. Attorneys' offices will even fight the claims), while seizure for investigation/evidence gathering results in the return of property to the owner afterward . . . BUT many law enforcement entities do not exercise proper care with valuable property seized as evidence. One anecdotal point will illustrate this. A dealer friend of mine had an expensive raw card (high-grade post-WWII HOFer rookie) stolen. It was recovered when the thief was arrested. The dealer got it back after the trial - with an evidence sticker now stuck directly on the card.

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Posted By: leon

Are you sure that raw, stolen card wasn't just sent to GAI to be graded? They seem to like to put stickers on things quite a bit. Being very small stickers with their name on them I guess they think it's good advertising...

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Posted By: Bob

Left or right if you are wishing for the American president to fail you are wishing for America to fail and you are not a good American.

Period.>>

Agree 100%
Good Lord, don't tell me the hating on Obama has already begun. Cut the guy some slack and let's see if he can try to lead us out of the morass that Dubbya left. There's a reason Bush was voted the worst President in the history of our country and yet the personal attacks on the man paled in comparison to the barbs and down right cruel hatred Clinton faced from the right wing.
As far as there not being one single act of terror on American soil after 9/11, how many acts were there before Bush? The so-called "Patriot Act" and the pervading environment of Fear that Bush and his cronies fostered will be his real legacy, not the ruined economy, the inane war in Iraq or any of his other blunders.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

The first World Trade Center attack?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I have a friend whose son is in the CIA(seriously) who is no movement conservative and has told me you would not believe how many potential terrorist attacks have been thwarted because of the major effort put across by the Bush administration to fight terrorism.

To me the role of government and taxes are major issues but keeping the country safe from the enemy is even more important and I give him an A plus here.

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Posted By: Rich Klein

In December 2001, I needed to take some time off to satisfy the minimum (sic) number of vacation days I had to take at Beckett. Also; my dad had just had "the fall" and I wanted to spend some time with him around the holidays.
Flying back from Newark to DFW it was an absolute nightmare; made worse by what I thought was a ridiculous rule about taking off one's shoes. (If anyone ever sees what shoes I wear; you'd understand why I thought it was weird)
Lo and behold; 2 days later the "shoe bomber" was stopped before he could light his bomb.

From that point on; I always figured there was some stuff the government knew that I did not.

Rich

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Posted By: David Atkatz

I think you have your timing a bit mixed up.

The "Shoe Bomber" got his shoes on the airplane, and was bending down to light the fuse when a cabin attendant noticed what was going on.

The reason he got his shoes on the airplane was that shoes were not being checked then.

Shoes began being checked shortly after the incident.

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Posted By: leon

If you knew Rich K (hi Rich) as well as I do you would understand. I am sure he appreciates the minor correction. Rich is a great guy and a good friend....Remind me someday to tell the story about food on his shoulder ....

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Posted By: Steve

Some airports were making people take off the shoes before the shoe bomber incident.

It was not every passenger, but it was happening before.

After the incident they made everyone do it.


Steve

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Posted By: Anonymous

WELL MY FRIEND I CAN'T AGREE WITH YOU MORE. I JUST FELT IS WAS A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE THEY WOULD GET BUSTED. IT'S A SHAME. I REMEMBER AS A KID GOING TO THE STORE TO BUY MY CARDS, THEN TAKING THEM HOME AND NEATLY PLACING THEM IN THE CIGAR BOX MY GRANDFATHER GAVE ME. THIS I DO KNOW, WHEN THERE IS MONEY INVOLVED, SOME CROOK(S) WILL COME ALONG AND RUIN EVERYTHING.

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Posted By: joe brennan

Mathew, Again well written and your points are well taken. The fantasy remark was not about you financial knowledge, but you saying baseball cards are a better market than art. I agree that speculation into unknown artists is always a risk. Most serious art collectors buy what they like and could care less about value or investment. Then of course you have the people that buy and hope to turn a profit, just like in any collectible, they are likely to be disappointed. Baseball cards also fall into that same catagory. If you buy hoping to flip and not what you like, you are likely to be disappointed.
We buy cards because we love the history and hope they at least hold their value.

Now the oil market. Only OPEC is to blame for the current prices. Almost all oil producing nations set their incomes and buying habit when oil went over $100 a barrel. As it fell they had to produce more to pay their debts and feed their economy. They don't grow corn over there. If the oil stops, their economy collapses. As the price dropped, the more they had to pump. The domino effect. I predicted gas would hit $1.35. People thought I was crazy.

OPEC continues to say they are going to cut back production. They can't. It's a scare tactic to try to bolster the price per barrel. Gas companies have to use their supply in 90 days or less or it turns bad in the ground. Hence the ever continuing lowering of gas prices. Urge people to drive to get rid of their supply before it goes bad. OPEC's poorer nations are now stuck with huge debt from over buying and cannot cut production or their people will starve.

Mathew, I really enjoy your posts and talking to someone with knowledge and I hope for everyone our economy pulls out of this a bit earlier than you predict. None the less, it is a pleasure talking to an intelligent and level headed poster. Take care, Joe

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

for the moment, I can state from experience that if you have to deal with the US Attorneys Office on asset forfeiture, you are in for a nightmarish battle, even if your client is 100% correct. The law has been established with very low thresholds of evidence to justify a seizure, at least until trial. Once the government has the funds it is similar to an IRS audit (where the IRS agent makes you prove to him why a challenged item is legit)--they tell you to prove to them why it isn't the proceeds of an illicit transaction. What makes things worse is that asset seizure has become a major source of revenue for governments at all levels.

A client of mine had an asset case several years ago; totally righteous on his part. The government was investigating a doctor writing scrips for junkies and one of them used my client's address as a fake address. He never lived there; just wrote it down randomly. The government got a warrant for all the addresses on the fake prescriptions on the basis that they were looking for drug sales rings who were getting scrips from corrupt doctors and reselling the pills on the street, and broke into my client's home. He was an ex-Black Panther from the 1960s and one of those "I don't believe in banks" types and had his life's savings, about $25,000 in a safe. The guy was a health care worker for 30 years, wasn't charged for anything, wasn't even arrested in the bust. The government still took the money and refused to give it back. Their "evidence" was that he could not show them documentation for how he got the money (apparently saving it for your lifetime a bit at a time in cash after cashing paychecks isn't enough) and a drug sniffing dog smelled cocaine manufacturing precursor chemicals on the money. Most of the money in circulation in the USA at the time would trigger a positive response in a drug dog, a fact that even the government had to concede. So I filed suit to recover the funds. The US attorney assigned to the case was a really nice guy--we got along great--and said he wanted to give it all back, but his department's policy was that they never give back more than 50% of the money regardless of merits without a trial. He even agreed that we would probably win the trial. The client opted to cut his losses and take the 50% rather than risk it all at trial.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: David Atkatz

"I do agree with Bruce in most cases."

Doesn't sound so level-headed to me.


"He is right, because some will have to part with their most prized possessions to meet financial margin calls on their stock..."

Yep. That sure is the major problem these days. All those "main-streeters" having bought on margin. That's why so many are losing their homes and jobs.

Do you have a clue as to what's really happening out there?

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Posted By: Matthew Pime

Joe,



Same regards to you. This conversation has been fun. I also think some of the commodity bubble crashing so quick is also due in part to another factor. Most of the investment banks were carrying huge derivitive books with various 'bets' in regards to oil in particular. With Bear Stearns, Lehman and the others either disappearing or changing hands- they had to unwind positions.



David-

Margin is not only defined as credit granted for brokerage accounts. I'm referring to credit itself. For the main street this comes in the form of too much leverage. (ie. overzealous mortgages, equity lines, aggressive business lines of credit and credit card debt)



I do understand what's going on out there. I'm just stating the facts.

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Posted By: joe brennan

"I do agree with Bruce in most cases."

Doesn't sound so level-headed to me.


Hi david, Good to hear from you today. Level headed was not in regards to any statements, but that Mathew can state his opinions without attacking any posters and respecting others. I may not agree with everything he says, but respect the fact that he only giving his views in a respectful way.

I still believe if everyone keeps their heads, the only people that will lose are the ones that were in over their heads to begin with.
I hate to see Americans lose their jobs as there is no financial planning that can compensate for that, but people trying to keep up with the Jones when they should have mingled with the Smiths only have themselves to blame.

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

"but people trying to keep up with the Jones when they should have mingled with the Smiths only have themselves to blame."

And who might those people be, Joe?

Do you mean the hard-working, low-income families who had always dreamed of owning their own homes, and who were convinced by the banks that this was their chance? The ones who were strenuously and continuously lied to by financial professionals, and convinced by them that their ARMs would only go down, or were told that an "interest-only" mortgage was their safe path to the American dream?

Those people?

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

David do you actually contribute to the baseball card topics on this site or do you just come here to bitch about the class struggle?

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Posted By: leon

Me thinks that was a rhetorical question.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

"David do you actually contribute to the baseball card topics on this site or do you just come here to bitch about the class struggle?"

Why don't you ask those on the memorabilia side?

(Unlike some here, I don't need to use this forum as a venue to brag about my collection, pat myself on the back, or blow my own horn. But if you have any question regarding NY Yankee artifacts, autographs, or memorabilia (particular emphasis on the years 1903-1927), I'd be happy to help you out.)

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Posted By: joe brennan

No David, I'm refering to the banks and the customers that took out home loans at 10 to 20x's their current income and chose to only pay interest to live in a home they could not afford. When they lost their homes, they lost a place to live. If it was their choice to live over their heads, the banks should have stopped them. Real Estate prices in some areas were so over inflated that people chose and I say again chose to buy into it. It doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to see that homes in some areas appreciated by 100% to 300% over a 10 year period that the prices would eventually level out and come back to there real world value.
Don't blame all of this on government or lending institutions. Nobody twisted their arms to get in over their heads. All it took was some research first. They are the ones who signed on the bottom line.
As for Americans who have been effected without any fault of their own, these are the people I feel for.

BTW, Don't ask me questions like I'm a 2 year old. Phrase them as you would to intelligent adult. I'm not a professor, but I'm smarter than you might think.

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

Don't blame it on lending institutions?



So, if I lend money to a person that I know for a fact can't repay me it's his fault?

Many of these loans were made by "bankers" who knew damn well they could not be repaid. They made their money up-front, in fees, and didn't give a damn what happened after they sold the loans.

But you're right. It's really the fault of all the poor, greedy bastards who duped those unsuspecting loan officers into financing their new mansions.

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

David,
I don't visit the memorabilia forum, but this forum is about Vintage Baseball Cards in case you haven't noticed. You may be a valuable contributor on the memorabilia side, but here your main contributions seem to be steering threads into off-topic territory and endless pissing and moaning.

I'm sure you have plenty of valuable baseball related knowledge or you wouldn't be here - why not share some of that in the relevant threads?

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Posted By: joe brennan

You left out words in my sentence. Do you do this for your students also? My written words were,

"Don't blame it ALL on the lending institions."

Are there good teachers and bad teachers? Are there good bankers and bad bankers? Do you buy things blindly or do you research? Do you borrow things that you are able to pay back or do you borrow knowing you will never be able to afford the purchase?

Do you blame a bank because I purchase a $1M home?

Or do you have to look in the mirror? Do you teach accountability to your students? Maybe that is a course the current generation of college stucents should take. As I understand it they are because of credit card debt one of the worst debt ridden age class and they don't even have a job yet. My daughter is in college without income and receive (here on purpose) 3 credit card applications a week, all shredded before opening. Maybe instead of arguing mute points you could contribute to the Education of our next generation and teach them responsible spending and borrowing habits.



In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

Yeah, I steered this thread off-topic.

And what was that topic? Oh, Yeah. Bruce's "prediction" that the world will end this year (so y'all might as well sell your cards to him for, dare I say it? CASH!)

I'm pissing and moaning? Gimme a break!

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Posted By: David Atkatz

Yes, Joe. I do teach accountability. And, as I said, I hold accountable the bankers who used extremely poor judgment(and/or extreme greed)in making those "toxic" loans. If a ten-year old walks into a bank and asks for a loan, no big deal. But if that bank actually gives him the loan, who would you "hold accountable"? The child?

A loan officer is a professional, supposedly trained to spot poor credit risks, and not loan money to them, no matter how nicely they ask.

And, BTW, if you don't want me to treat you like a two-year old, then don't presume to have knowledge of things about which you are completely ignorant, such as what I teach my children or my students.

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

David...my main point which you ignored was that you contribute nothing baseball card related on this baseball card board - subtract my "pissing and moaning" comment and the main point still stands.

And David please tell me which 10 year olds got loans to buy houses? Comparing adults who should have some responsibility for their actions to 10 year olds is insulting to the adult population and evidence of your nanny state mentality. The mortgage brokers and banks should be held accountable for this mess as well, but to completely dismiss the American consumers responsibility for their own finances is a joke - the issue isn't as black and white as you make it.

Many people in this country have tried to live beyond their means for years - buying a more expensive house, a more expensive car, or a bigger TV than they could afford andnow their excessive spending is coming back to haunt them.

The people really getting screwed in the whole deal are people who lived within their means, put money aside when they could, and tried to be responsible. Many of those people are now going to see their taxes go up in order to bail out the orgy of spending over the last decades - that on top of seeing their home values diminish and retirement plans lose substantial value.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Is that by securitizing the loans the rational plan for the makers of these loans was to make as many loans as possible as rapidly as possible to anyone they could so as to generate the fees and the raw grist for the bundled securities mills. To say that the borrowers should have exercised restraint and not lived beyond their means as the explanation of the debacle is to oversimplify the situation and allow the most educated, most expert participants in the mess off the hook. Read this article on WaMU's practices and see if you still want to blame the borrowers for everything; the lenders knew precisely what they were doing--they didn't care because it did not pay to care:



http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/28/business/28wamu.html>

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: joe brennan

Then teach your students good economics. You putting the blame entirely on banks is like you putting the blame on a bookie taking a bet.

If the better cannot pay the bet and sends the goons to breaks his legs, it's the bookies fault?

Don't shift the responsibilty to a lender. In this no accountiblility society we have built it's no wonder that everyone else is to blame for the American publics problems.

Crime? Blame it on their parents. Poor work ethics, ADD.

Wrong answer in school? Give him a grade for trying. That's how a boss will feel when they get out in the real world. Yea right.

No winners or losers in sports for children. We don't want them to feel bad. Don't keep score because a child feelings might get hurt. I got news for you, it's a cruel world out there and the faster they learn it, the better off they will be.

Resposibility falls on the individual and the quicker it is taught the faster the school of hard knocks will be learned.
Young people today want what their paerents have NOW!! They don't realize it took their parents 25 years to acquire it through hard work and financial planning.

I am glad you teach your students resposibility. If there were more teaching like you, our next generation might just be resposible for their actions and quit blaming it on everyone else.

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I knew the mess was coming 3-4 years ago when my pal's girlfriend was given a home loan for $120,000 and she was only making $23,000/year.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

"The people really getting screwed in the whole deal are people who lived within their means, put money aside when they could, and tried to be responsible. Many of those people are now going to see their taxes go up in order to bail out the orgy of spending over the last decades - that on top of seeing their home values diminish and retirement plans lose substantial value."

You're talking about me, Greg--and most others here.

But I still hold responsible those who lent the money--and whose profession it was to know a good loan from a bad one.

My "ten-year old"' analogy was not the best. But the point was that the banks are supposed to know better. That's what we trust them to do.

(That's why we put our money in banks, and don't make mortgage loans ourselves.)

They didn't lend money to the poor risks before they decided that a good "financial product" would be high-risk mortgage-backed securities, and they are once again not lending to them. (Or anyone else, for that matter.)

Making those loans, and then packaging and selling them, was nothing more than a Ponzi scheme--no different than Madoff's.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

And Joe, I agree with everything you said in your last post--except who is to blame for this mess.

You are absolutely right about today's students. They are unwilling to take responsibility for anything. It's always someone else's fault--especially the professor's.

But students have always been coming to prof's offices, asking for higher grades for the crap they've produced.

In the last decade or so, many have given in to them--it's called "grade inflation."

Who's responsible?

We, the professors are. We know those grades are undeserved, but we give them--and get wonderful student evaluations, which lead to promotions, etc.

Of course the students ask for higher grades. They have nothing to lose, and much to gain. It should be up to those that know better, though, to not give in, especially for their own self-serving reasons.

BTW, I am a physics professor. I don't give credit for non-rigorous bull****, and my evaluations suffer for it.

Ce la vie.

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

Adam,
I hope you're not lumping me in with the "blame the borrower" types - I have read that article on WaMu already and the whole operation that they were running was despicable. I'm simply trying to point out that borrowers do have some share of the blame - if I had to assign a number I would put it at around 15-20%, with banks getting the lions share of the rest. This isn't a situation where the blame lies 100% in one camp - that was my larger point.

David,
I agree with the basic points of your last post - the problem in the whole system was that of incentive. The incentive for the banks and mortgage brokers was to churn out mortgages like a factory churning out flat screen TV's - nobody cared about the creditworthiness of the borrower as long as the loans could be packaged and resold.

Wall Street banks no doubt deserve the bulk of the blame, and from the pay packages for executives to the issuance of mortgage backed securities that they knew were backed by junk mortgages, their behavior over the last 10-15 years has been unconscionable. I am certainly of the opinion that the heads of investment banks like Merrill Lynch, the seedier banks like WaMu, and the ratings agencies should all have their assets seized and be hauled off to jail. I consider myself fairly conservative so that statement will probably be considered blasphemy by my "free market" friends, but many of those people were crooks, plain and simple. They knew that the products they were selling were crap - they simply hoped not to be the one caught with the hot potato when it finally burned people.

The core of the problem is that Wall Street became an Ivy League boys club that lacked any kind of ethical core...an extension of the campus fraternities. Goldman Sachs, Merrill Lynch, etc, seemed to be out to prove that not all whores wear fishnet stockings and too much makeup...some wear suits and try to sell you mortgage backed securities.

As you can gather I'm no apologist for the banks...I simply don't think we should let the consumer off the hook for their share of the blame. I have a close friend who is facing foreclosure - he seemed to think that he had a right to a house, a Mercedes, and a huge TV with an expensive sound system. Now he is paying the price for living the high life and beyond his means. I'm sure his case isn't an isolated incident, and although I wish he wasn't in that situation, he didn't get screwed by anybody...he simply lived beyond his means and was content in his belief that the value of his home would go up forever...until one day it didn't.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

You're right, Greg. There are borrowers who should have known better, who thought the bubble would never burst, and that the increasing value of their too-large homes would pay for all their excesses. But I believe the vast majority of those forclosed upon were just trying to better themselves, to move from paying rent to owning, and who are, IMHO, far less at fault.

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Posted By: Jason

One thing and one thing ONLY contributed to our current economic status.

GREED

Greed from homeowners wanting something for nothing and given the delusion that they deserve it now and shouldn't have to work for it for 20 years like our grandparents.

Greed from banks and realtors trying to make the fast buck WITHOUT the buyer's best interest in mind.

Greed from politicians for power that has impowered the very systems and lack of justice that has ran our country in the ground. Whether Democrat, Republican, Black, White, Yellow, Old or young the facts are facts.

Greed from Insrance companies raping us working people.

Greed from Medical care to punish the hard working American just to cover the losses on illegal aliens and deadbeats who do not pay their bills.

Greed from Wall Street corruption

This mess will take years to sort out and be corrected IF we CHANGE.

We need to become more self sufficient and get rid of easy credit. Some people will have to suffer, start over, what ever maybe including myself, but so be it. We must have pains to grow. This is not a 1 or 2 year "fix".

Now with that being said, we still have the highest quality of living in the world as well as the best medical care even though it is corrupted. We can afford to sacrifice in these areas to make a better place for our children.

Jason

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

The irony displayed in this thread is just hilarious!

Keep 'em coming!

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Posted By: brian

"I knew the mess was coming 3-4 years ago when my pal's girlfriend was given a home loan for $120,000 and she was only making $23,000/year."

Dan, what happened? Did she file for bankruptcy? She didn't even gross $2000 a month and her payment would have been more than half her gross wages?

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Posted By: TFerg

This is a bit OT (as if). Mr. Lichtman, when will you be on the radio again? A heads-up to the board would be swell, I enjoyed listening the last time. Other than that I have nothing to add, Cheers.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

"The irony displayed in this thread is just hilarious!"

So glad we can be amusing.

After all, someone has to entertain the entertainer.

(When will you be on the air again?)

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Posted By: Paul

I was getting ready to bid on a card tonight that I always wanted, but the panic set in, & I just froze. Thanks a lot Bruces

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Brian, she still lives in the house...she never intended to live there alone as my pal also lives there and pays for most of it, but he's not on the paperwork. He been married twice and divorced twice and will not go that route again. There's absolutely no way she could have afforded it without him...not sure what she would do if they broke up.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I was actually on for about 13 hours over the past two weeks; not sure when I'm on again.

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Posted By: Rob D.

Paul, next time instead of acknowledging panic, just blame it on a "computer problem" in the final seconds of the auction.

(Then do it again the next night.)

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Posted By: joe brennan

David, I really enjoy your talking to you. The generation that went through the Great Depression taught me a great lesson in saving. Not everyone learned these lessons.

When our parents bought a house, they lived in it for most of their lives. Even if their income increases, as long as the family size didn't, they stayed. They didn't need a more expensive house or the bigger morgage.

They didn't need a new car every 2 years. They paid off their cars and drove them till they NEEDED a new car.

If our fathers worked overtime 20 hours a week, they didn't increase their bills to match the new found wealth. They saved the money.

How many couples do you know that based their incomes on overtime, new cars, bigger houses, boats, credit cards, large vacations and bills, bills, bills.

What happens to these families when the overtime stops?
Do they blame this on the company they work for? They find themselves in serious financial trouble.

Bigger houses, new cars, un needed credit because they could, never worrying about tomorrow.

Now, I assure you. I am not saying that all of our countries woes are due to these factors but just listening and looking around I see this played out over and over.

I read a fact when I was 18 years old that a large % ( I don't remember the exact %) of American have less than $500 in the bank when they retire. This was unbelievable to me. Who did they think would take care of them after their income stopped? The government? Depend on SS? Why depend on someone else when some serious financial planning, less buying and more saving through out their lifetime would have given them financial security.

I realize that housing values have dropped in many parts of the country and it is not due to the above factors that some families find themselves in a situation that they had no control over. To those families that did everything right, I feel for them. I know taking a loss on a house is a very hard thing to do, but the advice I would give them is try to ride it out and hope the housing market turns. If that is impossible, then they must sell at a loss and move into a house that they can afford now. Hopefully they are young enough to recoup their losses over time and put this hard time behind them.

I believe this will be my last post as I really didn't expect this to create a whole new direction for this thread.

I wish the best for everyone this year and hope my prediction of a turn around in the 3rd quarter of 2009 comes true. Leon, Thanks for letting me speak and now back to our regular scheduled program. Vintage cards, great new pick ups and TPGer's.

I enjoyed this discussion and find all the posters very intelligent and speak their opinions like adults.

If anyone wishes to continue, please e-mail me at twodueces22@yahoo.com

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.