The long awaited PSA half grade!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim also said many times that he never had any intention of letting PSA examine his cards again to see if any of them were altered, since that would clearly devalue his collection.

But when offered a sweet deal to have a percentage of the cards bumped up half a grade, thus increasing their value, the Brinks trucks can't back up in his driveway fast enough.

Wouldn't the most sensible and realistic approach be to have PSA bump up the cards that are high end for the grade, and at the same time weed out the ones that should never have been graded in the first place?

You would then be left with a collection where every card is precisely graded, and you would likely still come out ahead.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Now Barry be nice to a friend.

I suspect all major collectors will send all their 8s in if others are offered a similar deal to what I got.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- my comment was not meant to be unfriendly. But there is still one aspect of this process that simply baffles me. And I would like your take on it, or anyone else's:

If during the course of examining your collection, PSA finds just one card that is clearly trimmed- let's say it's just one card out of 22,000, and surely even you will admit that is possible- do they pull it out of circulation and put it in an "Authentic" holder, or do they pretend they never saw it and just throw it back in the pile?

Because I am going to give them some credit here and say their grading skills have improved over time, and cards graded 5-10 years ago may not be as state of the art as those graded today. So now that they are about to get an inordinate number of resubmissions, they are going to see things. And I would like to know how they are going to handle it.

Fair question I think.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

Every card that is not upgraded to an 8.5 or a 9 is returned in the same holder it was sent to them in.

Jim

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Posted By: MikeU

It is not just the altered cards, but the cards that are simply overgraded. They both are bad. I think the written guarantee that all submitted cards are exempt from grade reductions is very important to many of the PSA folks and makes it a nothing to lose proposition, as Joe O. has so eloquently noted. Without that disclaimer, I do not think Jim would be nearly as happy.

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Posted By: barrysloate

So you are saying if they see a card that they know was misgraded, their hands are tied and there is nothing they can do about it, per their agreement with the submitter?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

My understanding is they are under strict instructions to upgrade or return as is.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Thanks Jim, I appreciate your response.

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Posted By: MikeU

"So you are saying if they see a card that they know was misgraded, their hands are tied and there is nothing they can do about it, per their agreement with the submitter?" - Barry S.

Barry,

It is not so much that their hands are tied, it is more to do with a written guarantee to turn a blind eye.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Jim, I feel my question was polite and respectful and not at all out of line, particcularly given the number of times you have come on message boards and stated that half grades were bad. I'm not sure what it has to do with our friendship.

Many collectors of graded cards - myself included - look to you for guidance and insight, which you often provide on these message boards. You have a large collection of high-grade cards, and are very visible on the message boards. Based on that, many other collectors of graded cards - particularly PSA-graded ones - look to you for clues on the future of this hobby.

For years, collectors have read and heard statements from you that half-grades at PSA would be bad for collectors and a poor move by PSA. You've also made statements that going to half-grades is an indicator of poor customer relations.

Today, you are making an entirely different statement. And I'm sure you didn't mean it to read this way, but your response to my question almost appears as if you're not concerned with the impact that half-grades will have on the hobby, only the impact that they'll have on your pocketbook. I'm sure that you didn't mean this to read that way; sometimes we inadvertantly sacrifice clarity for the sake of brevity.

So can you please help me to understand why half-grades at PSA were bad for collectors, but today registry folks are smiling? I mean, in the past, you've said you'd cross your collection if PSA switched to half grades. You never added the caveat "Unless I get a good deal." It's always been unequivocal. So I'm really misunderstanding you, I think.

And again - please - don't take this as a personal affront on our friendship. I'm just really confused, and trying to understand.

-Al

Edited once again for clarity.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Inasmuch as you have been on the forefront of the crusade to rid the hobby of slabbed altered cards, respectfully, I have three questions:

1. Will you be submitting all your 8's from all your issues?

2. Is there any understanding with PSA, implicit or explicit, that they will not look for alterations?

3. If PSA should find an altered card for whatever reason, will they under any circumstances not remove it from circulation in its current graded slab?

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Posted By: Steve

Jim exactly what type (how much) did Joe give you? Do you think getting a sweetheart deal is fair to all the other collectors? Also, do you think it wise to boast about it? And will you be sending in every card? Or will you weed out those you feel are not worthy of a bump?

Steve

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Posted By: Anonymous

Seems to me any rational person, if offered a deal whereby the cost will be far less than the likely incremental increase in value, would take PSA up on their offer. Particularly where there is a devaluation cost to doing nothing.

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Posted By: Eric B

Jim is one of PSA's best customers, he got a nice deal, and they agreed not to disclose it. Stop asking what the deal was!

Does anyone know any business in America that does not cater towards their best customers? They all do and they should. As long as the deal is monetary and not "wink wink - we're going to upgrade them all" then it's a good business decision.

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Posted By: Steve

Maybe if Jim did not want to be asked that question it would have been wiser not to mention it? And not to argue but does Jim submit cards for grading? Or does he simply buy them on the scondary market?

And of course I understand that a company can offer any customer whatever deal they choose.


Steve

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Posted By: Chuck Ross

If I was running a company that was making a move sure to cause an uproar, it would make good sense to buy the approval of those that others "look to for guidance"

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

The answer to everyone's questions is simple: money. If PSA did a true regrading of all cards submitted for the bump up there would be less submissions and less revenue for PSA -- and no one has ever accused PSA of being more concerned about the integrity of card grading than its bottom line. If Jim thought he'd lose a half grade or more he wouldn't bother submitting some or all of his cards -- which means since he is in a win/win situation financially here. If Jim thought there was even a chance that his cards would be deemed altered upon the bump-up review he wouldn't send them in for fear of losing money.

It's a perfect marriage, really, between collector and grading company.

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Posted By: MikeU

"If I was running a company that was making a move sure to cause an uproar, it would make good sense to buy the approval of those that others "look to for guidance""

They did not get Jim's approval/input prior to the announcement!

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Posted By: Jason L

Peter S writes:
"Seems to me any rational person, if offered a deal whereby the cost will be far less than the likely incremental increase in value, would take PSA up on their offer. Particularly where there is a devaluation cost to doing nothing."

Exactly! And the problem is that since this "deal" isn't available to all collectors, we now have an explicit admission that the grading business is not objective. Therefore, the entire premise has now fallen apart.

PSA is now forcing collectors to buy new holders. As if to say, "you know what, we didn't know what we were doing before, you better re-submit that."

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Posted By: Charles

Jim,

I sure hope that deal includes some way to circumvent the submission forms. If you average 30 seconds a line, it would still take you over seven and a half days working continuously to complete the forms.

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Posted By: Anonymous

If PSA has given Jim such a great deal for his 22,000 plus cards to be reviewed, we all should be able to send (on a one time basis) our combined 500,000 plus cards even cheaper than what Jim was able to get if PSA really wanted to help all of thier loyal collectors. Let's face it, this is all about greed and making more money during tuff economic times.

This is really very upsetting for collectors that have stand by PSA thru thick and thin (Wiwag) during all of these years.

I hope PSA reconsiders their position on this decision and give every collector at least, a one time special offer, no matter the size of thier collection.

Always looking for 1915 Cracker Jack PSA 7 & 8's. Maybe now in 7.5 & 8.5, I guess!

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Posted By: bill latzko

Does that mean you are NOT looking for 1915 Cracker Jack Psa 7.5 and psa 8.5's??? (I thought it was funny, couldn't resist!)

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Steve,

Not boasting I a special deal--just mentioning it as this is why it makes sense for me.

Mike is correct--I was not consulted in advance but got a call from Joe a week ago setting up a call today between us.

Jeff--you are a smart guy--seriously.

Corey--I have answwered this and you know this announcement has nothing to do with alterations

Al--if you really are confused and not just trying to embarass me then send me an e-mail.

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Posted By: Steve

fair enuff Jim, thanks for answering me.


Steve

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Posted By: cmoking

Jim, I'm wondering if you have spoken or been in contact with other major registry guys...and if so, how do they feel about this? Are guys like Ireland, Louchios, etc. happy about this? When is Fogel going to sell his collection? I'm pretty sure he won't be sending stuff in for bumps since he's been inactive for a while (at least it seems that way). Sounds like a good time for him to bump and sell.

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Posted By: Solomon Cramer

I for one can't see any problems or inconsistancies with Jim's position.

Whatever his objections or thoughts before this week, PSA made a decision to go to 1/2 grades. Nothing Jim says or does is going to change that.

At this point, he needs to cut the best deal, or cut bait with PSA. And with the money invested in it...the latter is very difficult.

My personal guess would be a review rate in the $3 range...even if just 15% of 8s go up to an 8.5, it would be paying in the $20 range for each upgrade. How many vintage cards are NOT worth a $20 upgrade fee? And a 15% bump would raise a set by .08 value...a lot cheaper than changing 8% to 9s!

And more than anything, for PSA - what chance would they ever have of getting a five figure check from someone like Jim in the future, unless he submitted his 70s sets??

PSA is a company - does anyone see how PSA loses revenue, short term or long term, over this decision??

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Posted By: DJ

The way I see it, it completely benefits Jim and all these high grade mavens.

Take for instance Jim's (252) card 1952 Bowman set that averages out at 8.05 and tied for sixth on the list. He sends this entire set to be "regraded" and now he's got a bunch of 8 1/2's and maybe 9's and now he moves up to 5th or even 4th on the list because of the new standards and the financial investment that he has made. He may now all of a sudden have an average of 8.30 instead of 8.05.

Is that fair to the 3rd, 4th and 5th on the list? Now they will have to invest in getting their cards regraded and we're exactly where be began, except for the top 5 or 6 having higher grades? Who wins really?

PSA of course.

Am I wrong here?

DJ

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Posted By: Cobby33

I guess Jim is saying that he only previously objected to this system because of the re-submission fees and not based upon anything philosophical.

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Posted By: Steve

"regraded" and now he's got a bunch of 8 1/2's and maybe 9's


Cards will only go from 8 to 8.5 but I see your point. Gradeflation at its finast I suppose?


Steve

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Posted By: cmoking

"PSA is a company - does anyone see how PSA loses revenue, short term or long term, over this decision??"

PSA is a company - does anyone not see how PSA could possibly lose revenue in the long term over this decision????? Anyone that thinks it isn't possible hasn't read any message boards today.

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Posted By: Mike Mccullough

Quote:
"The answer to everyone's questions is simple: money. If PSA did a true regrading of all cards submitted for the bump up there would be less submissions and less revenue for PSA -- and no one has ever accused PSA of being more concerned about the integrity of card grading than its bottom line. If Jim thought he'd lose a half grade or more he wouldn't bother submitting some or all of his cards -- which means since he is in a win/win situation financially here. If Jim thought there was even a chance that his cards would be deemed altered upon the bump-up review he wouldn't send them in for fear of losing money.

It's a perfect marriage, really, between collector and grading company."


Jim is in a unique situation and at this point is playing a poker hand. Really,,, what's he going to do,, cross all his cards to SGC or GAI??? Financially IMO this would not be a smart move. (Or is it???)

Personally, I dont think his situation is win /win.. At some point and time his collection will have to be sold to realize any real financial gain. Also,,, as PSA loses market share and a core customer base ,,,, who,,, really will be there to buy Jims cards??? Im thinking his hopes of a 6 figure gain may just as easily turn into a 6 figure loss.... If PSA keeps making boneheaded (PR) moves like this who will be left to buy Jims collection???

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

I think this thread for the most part is losing focus of the main issue. It is not that PSA chooses to give bulk discounts to its best customers. All businesses do that and I see nothing nothing wrong with it. Nor is it that PSA will only bump a card up but not a card down. While admitedly a bit more troublesome, I still don't think it's that big a deal. The market will for the most part still look at the card through the grade and decide its correct value. Strong 8's with good provenance will still sell for more than weak 8.5's with no provenance. THE issue here is that PSA, through its policy and presumably also through agreement with some of its customers, will be intentionally recirculating graded cards that it knows or should know are altered and that collectors, relying on the PSA certification that the card is unaltered, will be defrauded and will as a result suffer material economic damage. This to me is no different than an auction house, to increase its profitablity, shill bidding lots in its auctions. I believe PSA is being very short-sighted about what it is doing and that there is a real possibly that some regulatory/law enforcement agency will start asking some very hard questions and possibly take some very strong action.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Corey's point is well taken. PSA is turning a blind eye to alterations in this scenario, while at the same time telling us they're doing their utmost to stop card doctoring. That's shameful.

Frank

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Posted By: Eric B

Corey, point well taken. But can we assume that during re-examination if a card is deemed altered then it will not get the 1/2 point bump in grade? If so, can we also then assume that any card with a #.5 grade is most likely unaltered per improved grading techniques?

I have no point except that while the #.5 grade cards will increase in value, perhaps the non #.5 grade cards will lose more value due to healthy skepticism.

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Posted By: Glen Turner

I have always hated the fact that PSA did not distinguish between a poor and a fair card.
To me there is more difference between poor and fair and good cards than 8's 9's and 10's
You line up the same card say a 1963 Ted Savage. The average collector could not tell an 8 from a 9 from a 10 but if properly graded there is a world of differences between poor and fair and good cards.
Oh, well good luck to all the high rollers out there.
I will still be trying to pick up a nice fair or good card.

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Posted By: Jerry Hrechka

IMHO PSA's most valuable asset is that collector's have trust & confidence that PSA slabbed cards are authentic, unaltered & accurately graded. If that trust starts to lessen then the PREMIUM value of a graded card vs. a raw card will diminish. PRO cards are a joke because no one knowledgeable believes that the 3 elements mentioned above are present. Trust in GAI cards has gone down (All the Open on Monday Jokes).
How can I trust PSA not to pull another money grubbing scheme like this one? They cann't even differentiate between a 1 & a 6 (See the Horrors of War card I posted earlier).
If PSA continues down their current path then the trust will become eroded & eventually will vanish, again IMHO.
As for me, the trust is gone, I'm done with PSA.

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Posted By: Rhett

I wonder who would be the first in line denouncing PSA if sweetheart deals hadn't been reached. Kinda takes the wind out of sails of those trying to "clean the hobby" up. This is all so transparent it is rediculous. People that want to be leaders in any part of life have to do so by their example not through words only. How can people that don't expect to be taken seriously?
-Rhett

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Posted By: Fred C

Perhaps someone can enlighten me here. Did I read somewhere in this thread that PSA WILL NOT DOWNGRADE any card they find to be overgraded? What happens if upon a second review a grader sees evidence of alteration which was not found in the first grade attempt? Does that mean that PSA turns a blind eye and says "oh well, no harm no foul"? You would have to figure that if there were cards that could be upgraded then there are certainly cards that can be downgraded.

This sounds like a CAN'T lose proposition because you can send as many cards in for a half grade bump without the worry of having anything downgraded. That's BULL$HIT (please notice the $ sign in place of S in the word **** - I did that so nobody would be offended).

Yes, PSA is in the business of providing hobby services and providing their share holders with a dividend but this type of service seems to be a clear ploy to make more money than anything else.

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Posted By: Jantz

Keeping in mind that we are all humans (whether it be collectors or PSA graders). One question I have though is...what special training did PSA graders get to differentiate from a card graded a PSA 4 to a card now being graded a PSA 4.5? (or whatever their new grading scale is)

I have never submitted a single card to PSA(or SGC for that matter)and have NO ill feelings towards PSA what-so-ever, but it seems to me that if I had submitted alot of cards to PSA in the past, I would be very upset at this time. I would have paid them a submission fee to accurately authenticate and grade a card for me, which is solely based upon THEIR opinion and now they say that if I wish to resubmit and pay their submission fee a second time THEIR opinion might get a little more accurate.

Imagine for a moment if all other services we deal with on a daily basis handled their customers like this. For example, having your brakes fixed on your automobile. Hmmm

I am not trying to ruffle any feathers by posting this. This is just my perspective/opinion on this thread topic typed out for all to read.

Collect what you like,
Jantz

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Posted By: DD

Someone could make a killing by buying SGC 92 cards of significant value, and then crossing them over to PSA to get an 8.5. PSA still on average generates more $$ than SGC, outside of the vintage market anyway.

In addition, it's obvious that no card could ever be downgraded or deemed trimmed, etc., since PSA graders do not make mistakes, are a model of consistency, and have never encapsualted an altered card.

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Posted By: Mark Evans

Great thread -- forum at its best.

First, it seems to me that moving to a half-grade system is sensible in that it should allow for more accurate grading to the benefit of collectors.

Second, I see no problem with PSA offering a cost break to major re-submitters.

However, I believe all re-submissions should be considered fresh and graded accordingly under the new system. This would require altered cards to be so identified and overgraded (as well as undergraded) cards to be assigned proper grades. PSA's apparent decision to ignore alterations and eschew downgrades reflects the cynicism of the company toward collectors by sacrificing the integrity of the system for revenues. Ironically, while the new system will undoubtedly generate increased revenues in the short-term, based upon the views of the majority of posters in this thread, I suspect this will be a short-lived victory for PSA that will be more than offset by the tarnish to its reputation. Mark

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Thursday July 10, 2003 3:14 PM


There has been a great deal of discussion about PSA going to a half point grading system and, once and for all, I want to clear this up.

PSA IS NOT GOING TO A half POINT SYSTEM.

The fact that I asked for the opinions of collectors and dealers just shows that WE DO LISTEN to your concerns and we do not make decisions here without considering the implications. From the start, I have been against .5 grades but I wanted to hear from you too.

Some of you have been critical of the use of the word "Now" in my original statement. I believe that it is wrong to mislead people and guarantee things that I cannot guarantee. The point is that, 3 years from now, your own opinion may change and, if it does, PSA would want to satisfy the collecting community - that is what we are here for. So, in the end, it would be ridiculous for me or anyone to say "Never" because we don't know what the future will bring.

In addition, PSA knows that collectors drive and support our business more than anyone so why would we want to offend the very same people who support us most? We would have to be crazy to do it.

THAT'S WHY WE ARE NOT DOING IT.

Thanks for listening. There are those who will speculate and make ridiculous comments on the boards like "PSA is insulting us by even asking about it" and "It doesn't matter what Joe thinks because the powers that be want more money." I can't stop those people from refusing to listen and speculating but to most of you who have been very responsive and courteous - thank you - your voice matters and your point has been made.

End of story.

Take care,

Joe Orlando
PSA President >>


So that's it! It was the COLLECTORS that asked for the half grade bump, not CLCT's shareholders!

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Posted By: Matt

Joe has missed the point entirely which is just shocking to me as we have clarified it here so many times. Most of us would have no issue with PSA going to a half point system. The issue is with the guaranteed greater then or equals to policy.

Joe - go to the half point system, just evaluate each card submitted as being fresh, allowing for a 5 to come back as a 4.5, a 5.0, a 5.5 or an A.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

I can't believe you would have to ship the cards. PSA should be coming to you. It would have been much easier and cost effective. Did they not offer such? Or did you fail to ask?

Scott

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Scott,

I don't know if that last question is meant for me but assuming it is...A Brinks truck with a number of armed guards would come to my house and load up my cards and drive them to Cali. That is PSA's idea.

My idea is they send two vintage graders to my house or a hotel room nearby to regrade...or come out around Ft. Washington and do it in stages.
Hopefully my idea wins out.

Matt,

Assuming you are correct, it is because there are few owners of a substantial number of PSA cards on the Net 54 boards. Noone would submit under your proposal.

King,

Do not know when or if Marshal will sell. I have spoken to other major collectors but would prefer not to say who. I think that there are a very small number(less than 5) being offered the type of deal I am offered.

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Posted By: JK

Jim,

I think you are incorrect about Matt's idea - I think people who truly believe that their cards merited an upgrade would submit. Indeed, people are constantly cracking cards out of slabs and resubmitting with no guarantee that they wont get a lower grade or an Auth. the next go around.

The problem is that not enough would submit to have the result intended by PSA - ie boost their profits.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

I was addressing your situation.

If it were me, I would absolutely demand they come to you. Much less expense to import a couple of graders/slabbers and a machine for a few days than ship 22,000 slabs across the country AND back, and much less liability and risk for everyone. I agree timing with a Ft. Washington show or such when they are already on the East coast makes the most sense.

One things for sure the competition would be on your doorstep in a heartbeat if you wanted to grade 22,000 cards with them, and I bet you could have gotten as sweet a deal.

Scott

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Scott,

I have known Dave Forman 16 years. He has been to my house and my office. We speak regularly. He is no doubt aware of my situation. If he has a proposition for me he knows how to get a hold of me.

Yeah, I am a bit uncomfortable with the whole Brinks/armed guards scenario.

We'll see.

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Posted By: Bob

I have a large number of PSA graded cards but I will not submit one single card to them for re-grading to try and get a .5 bump. Not one.

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Posted By: S Gross

Ode to a PSA 8.5


PSA 8 !!!
PSA 8 !!!
Ain't it just grand;
Ain't it just great.

PSA 8 !!!
PSA 8 !!!
Now your'a saying
It doesn't rate ???

PSA 8 !!!
PSA 8 !!!
Quick ! grab you wallet
before it's too late.

PSA 8 !!!
PSA 8 !!!
Go ask your mommy,
It's still a PSA 8 ...............