OT: Bhutto Assassinated

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Posted By: JimB

Dylan, CCR, Jefferson Airplane...Yes. I would equally vote yes to X, the Germs, Laurie Anderson, Phillip Glass, and Dave Alvin. I am illogical, but what can I do.... I'm a liberal. Oh wait, the logic is that it is all good music, born and bread in America.
JimB

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

Anyone know what breakfast cereal Dylan eats?

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Posted By: sagard

People are always going to blame the previous admin to avoid looking too closely at their own performance. It's going to be done for at least four years when Obama or Hillary takes office.

The only language al-Qaeda speak and respect is violence. The only way anyone is going to get to the leadership pieces of that organization is when the approach taken by Los Pepes to get Escobar is used to go after those hiding in Pakistan. It's bloody, uncivilized, and many relatively innocent will pay with their lives.

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Posted By: bill latzko

damn YOUR politics....WE are the terrorists...........When something of worldwide significance happens, remember two things 1) the USA is involved in some way and 2) to understand an event more clearly, look and see who it benefits. Just as I am sure you think Oswald killed Kennedy by himself, you think 9/11 was pulled off by a few fanatics by themselves????NO WAY!!!!We engineered 9/11 (who cares about 3000 lives when it's BILLIONS for oil etc), we declared Bin Laden to be the enemy after we trained and armed him and Al Quaida (SP?) years earlier against the russians(shades of blaming another ex-ally Saddam before we shut him up for good)....just like we are capable of overthrowing governments, it's a PIECE OF CAKE to recruit a few fanatics and engineer a few planes to be hijacked. We were lied to about the Gulf of Tonkin (I'm sure you actually thought our ships were attacked first), and you and others continue to believe the lies this right wing dictator and his henchmen spew forth. One thing the govenment learned. When the body bags were shown nightly and America saw Vietnam on TV, then Middle America turned against that immoral invasion. Why aren't you shown what really happens now. Cause if you were, maybe even you would open your eyes !!! happy holidays

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Posted By: DD

Take an opinionated group, mix in a controversial subject, inject Bill L. and let the mudslinging commence.

Oh for a team of truly world class psychiatrists.

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Posted By: Bill

Speaking for a semi-decent sample size of people in the country we entered in 2003, many are scared of what will happen when the U.S. leaves. The situation now is no good as it was pre-invasion. The key country people are scared of is the neighbor to the east. And to those that think simply capturing the top few people in the terror organization will cripple it, well maybe for a month or so but it would be back in no time. They are not going away and in order to cripple it, the legs need to be chopped out from underneath the head.

Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Hi Ted!

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Posted By: David Smith

Pennsylvania TEd,

What happened on 9/11, the World Trade Center attack in 1993 and the Pan Am bombing were not terrorist attacks, they were publictiy attacks. Things that would make international news and gain attention to the organizations that were behind them.

If you want TERROR, try the Son of Sam and the two guys who were shooting people from the back of their van and from the trunk of their car and then driving off. THAT is terror. Nobody knew who these guys were or where they would strike next. The victims were randomly selected. No rhyme or reason to it. THAT type of crime SCARES people because THEY could be next.

The World Trade Center was attacked twice. I don't call that random.

That is why I wasn't scared of being attacked on 9/11. I wasn't in or around a highly public building or area. Again, I was MORE scared of the people driving crazily on the road trying to find gasoline before the prices spiked even higher.

The War monger Bush and his scare tactics ("the terrorists want to kill you and your children") is just a bunch of BS. What the terrorists want to do is attck public symbols of America and show their followers they can damage the Great Satan. If those symbols just happen to have people in or around them and they are killed, that is just a plus for the terrorists.

Like I said in a previous post, if another terrorist attack happens in America, I highly doubt it is going to be against a farm house in Iowa. It is going to be against something that is very public and that will make headlines around the world.

If Bhutto was killed by Al Qaeda, which it is looking like, then that just proves my point. She was a highly public figure. She was also against extremists. They killed her and it is news around the world. They didn't just go and shoot some random person on a corner and leave. THAT wouldn't have made news world wide. But killing a well known politician who was against extremism......

David

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- logical and intelligent people can care about terrorism just as much as you do. But it does not obligate them to blindly follow our president. Just because we need to fight terrorism does not automatically mean he is going about it the right way. Frankly, I don't think he is fully qualified to handle this job, and I would rate his success so far as rather poor.

Why don't you ever tolerate other people's opinions? Your opinion is just that, an opinion. It is not the only answer to a problem. Problems can be complex and have many different possible solutions. In America we allow room for dissent.

I am generally a liberal but I have seen many opinions on this thread that differ from mine yet make good sense. And I am willing to listen. I wish you would be a little more open minded. Thank you. You will always be my lifelong friend but sometimes I read your posts and I just don't know what to say.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

That's old news....in the early '80s Iran was a serious problem and we aided Iraq in their war with Iran. There are
times when.....The enemy of our enemy is temporary our "friend".....this same paradox applied in WWII, when we
fought together with the USSR against the Axis powers to defeat the Nazis and the Japanese.

As I said in my previous post, you are letting your emotion overshadow your better thinking, by showing us that
photo.


And, DAVE SMITH.....

SPIN it all you want.....you are living in La-La Land.....and, I'm not going to argue with a fool.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Bill L., I can appreciate an intelligent political debate. But I can't appreciate an idiot who comes on here and blames America for 9/11. I can't imagine why you would even want to live in a country that would do such a thing to its people. Since that's you how feel, why not move to Egypt? Saudi Arabia? You'd do swell there. But if you stay here, remember one thing: when the jihadists come here and look for heads to chop off they'll take the appeasers and cowards first -- so get ready.

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Posted By: howard

What is the point of that photo, Dan? No one here is disputing that the U.S. supported Hussein at one time. Politics makes for strange bedfellows. It does not mean that we are obligated to stay "friends" forever. During WW2 photos were taken of Roosevelt yukking it up with Stalin because they had common enemies. If photography had been invented centuries ago there would likely be photos of Caesar shaking hands with Pompey and Richard the Lionheart having a grand time with Saladin (or his agents). So what?

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Posted By: Dave S

Jeff--nicely said!
Bill L.--You started your ranting on the Veteran's Day thread...I can only wonder if you have ever seen a loaded body bag? Your kind of thinking certainly should...

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Posted By: bill latzko

while you are often witty, you fail to recognize in this case that MANY people believe that we were behind 9/11. You may CHOOSE not to, but that doesn't make you correct.Your "move to Saudi Arabia" blah blah is no different than the "Love it or Leave it" crowd in the 60's and 70's who supported a MASS SLAUGHTER of 2,000,000 or so people in the guise of anti-Communism. What was your stance then???

By the way, I don't recall if you were one of the people who ranted and raved about how Bush is supported by western europe --and perhaps you were one who mentioned how many countries you were in,I don't recall. Just because a leader of a country carries out a course of action or supports another leader doesn't mean it's people favor it. ;the best example is our own dictator's war in Iraq and the most recent elections here. I too have lived overseas for 10 years; have had contacts through work etc with people of the most extreme left parties to the MSI (neo-facist party in Italy)--Our policies in Vietnam as they are NOW were and now vehemently opposed by a VAST majority of most of the people in Europe. Just because Tony A.(that's for assh___)Blair supported us did not indicate the feelings of the British people PEACE

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Bill, intelligent people can disagree on politics; that's been shown here. And I have no doubt that a small percentage of our population believes that Bush was behind 9/11. A small percentage also believes that the moon is made of green cheese. I think if you take the average IQs of those who believe that Bush was behind 9/11, however, and compare it to the Dems and the Republicans that believe otherwise, you'll find that those less intelligent and uneducated are more likely to take your position. That's enough for me.

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Posted By: Joe D.

why do I read this thread in the morning.... I have to go, but I would try to make four quick points -

1) David S - it sounds as if terrorism attacks on this country don't matter to you because, heck they won't come to a farm house in Iowa. Thats a pretty self-centered thought process. I would hope you would have more compassion for your fellow Americans who kick in taxes so that you have a nice place to live in Iowa. I find it ironic that a person with that selfish / self-centered of view - would even care about the people from other countries. The two don't go together. So - you are not self-centered or selfish, you just favor the other guys over your own countrymen. You also seem to think terrorists are after symbols and not people. They most definitely want to MAXIMIZE the deaths of people in their attacks - it adds to the impact. They don't just consider it a plus if people are around, they look and wait for the most people to be around. They could have taken down the towers at 4am. Why didn't they? They wanted a full house to hopefully murder as many people as they can. They chose the exact time those towers would have the most people in them - and the world stage would be the biggest. When they blew up the train in Spain... did they go at a time where they would be the only ones on the train. Stop sanitizing what they do.

2) Bill L - your opinions and views are extremely different than mine... I don't think I could type anything in response to them. Politics aside though - I wouldn't mind bellying up to the bar with you. (not taking anything personally.

3) Someone actually emailed me sort of a bash on George Bush this morning (Bush's resume) - how funny is that?

4) Bob Dylan must be included in the list.

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Posted By: howard

Bill, does the MSI still exist? I ask because you have lived overseas for ten years and my impression was that the MSI was dissolved over ten years ago (maybe you meant ten years total, not necessarily the last ten years?). Also, what work did you did that you had contact with such diverse groups?

Howard

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Posted By: Kenneth A. Cohen

To Bill L. and other self-righteous spewers of epithets -

It's when epithets such as "dictator Bush" are invoked is when people put their intellectual bankrupcy on display. Was Bush not elected twice? (Oh yea, I forgot, he stole both elections.) Do you have some basis for a belief that he intends to cancel the next elections? Until that happens, or you show yourself capable of learning and understanding the meaning of the word "dictator," or of injecting semi-intelligent policy alternatives instead of resorting to name calling and advancing stale conspiracy theory, no rational person could ever take you seriously.

Over and out.

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Posted By: howard

Joe D., I got the same e-mail this morning. Maybe someone from this forum sent it out to everyone. Anyone else get it?

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Posted By: Joe D.

Yeah.... I am sure it was someone on this board that emailed it to both of us (and probably others as well).

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Posted By: howard

David S.,

"What happened on 9/11, the WTC attack in 1993, and the Pan Am bombing were not terrorist attacks..."

A few lines later:

"if another terrorist attack happens in America..."

"Another" one? I thought there weren't any. Please clarify.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I got the resume email too, but didn't open it.

I have no problem that we are a bunch of people with differing political views. But I think we could all do ourselves a favor by looking at the world with a little perspective. Perhaps even a more moderate approach would make sense.

The events in the world aren't so black and white. Anyone who comes on this thread with "the answer"- that is only their opinion or point of view matters- really doesn't know very much at all.

I am appreciative of the posters who know more about world events than I do. I read the posts and determine whether they make a sensible point or not. I do not profess to have all the answers, and I abhor those who present these bizarre and extreme positions.

While I am not a fan of Bush and neither is Bill L (clearly), to say Bush was behind 9/11 is just a stupid statement. Why would you say that?

The world is volatile and complicated and I can assure you not one person who posted on this board has the knowledge or ability to fix it. But there have been some very intelligent posts, and of course some whacky ones too. I say to everyone: chill out and moderate!

Edited to add of course Bob Dylan belongs on that list. Just a temporary memory lapse.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"What happened on 9/11, the World Trade Center attack in 1993 and the Pan Am bombing were not terrorist attacks, they were publictiy attacks."

"If you want TERROR, try the Son of Sam and the two guys who were shooting people from the back of their van and from the trunk of their car and then driving off. THAT is terror. ... THAT type of crime SCARES people because THEY could be next."

"That is why I wasn't scared of being attacked on 9/11. I wasn't in or around a highly public building or area. Again, I was MORE scared of the people driving crazily on the road trying to find gasoline before the prices spiked even higher."

These statements are equal in insanity to Bill L's claiming Bush was behind 9/11.

David, you're aware that the Son of Sam did his killing in a very small area of NYC, right? So you were scared of that but not scared of 9/11?

And considering that 35% of all the country's commuters are coming into or out of the NY metro area, I can assure you that a large part of our country's population -- maybe everyone but you -- is afraid of a terrorist attack. Maybe you're just really, really brave.

Edited to add: Wait, I change my mind. David, you're not really, really brave: you were afraid of people driving like crazy trying to find gasoline! I'm more afraid of a cockroach than that.

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Posted By: Steve

Two things for certain,
Bhutto was one special lady and the vintage hobby has it's share of psychotics and those undiagnosed.

American government, Imperfect of course... The cause of all the worlds' ills? Not buying it. One small example.

Upon graduation in June, My son, and MANY other young Americans have signed on to the Peace Corps to do 27 months, to help improve the quality of life in African villages -while living amongst them. More shameful American influence across the globe.

Try using your entire field of vision.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Steve- I wish your son a safe trip. He is doing a great thing.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Steve, that's wonderful news. Your kid is very special.

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Posted By: leon

Very commendable of your son. For the most part our children are a reflection of ourselves....take care and be safe.....happy holidays...

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I only posted those pictures because Ted Z for some reason felt the need to blame Clinton for all the world's terror woes. Terrorism started before Lockerbie. Why didn't Ronald Reagan do anything about the Iranian backed Hezbolla?...you know the guys who killed 250 US Marines in Lebanon on Reagan's watch. Instead of punishing Iran for that attack and holding the American's hostage in Tehran he went behind the US Congress's back and sold weapons to a terrorist nation to fund his war in Central America.

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Posted By: David Smith

Jeff L,

Yes, the Son of Sam committed his crimes in a small area. Guess what, the people who lived in that area were TERRORIZED!! They were scared to go out and scared to live their lives normally. I thik that is the definition of terror.

What happened on 9/11 was a publicity stunt. The terorists didn't just go and randomly pick individuals, they picked large, public symbols of America. If the terrorists attack again, I have no doubt they will do the same thing.

New York City is large and has a lot of people but 99.95% of those people were safe on 9/11 because they didn't live or work in an area or building that was a symbol.

As far as my situation that day, I don't know where you live or if you have to drive but when gas prices were going from around $2 dollars to $3, $4 and even $5 dollars, it was scary to drive. People were speeding and a couple of times I saw them run red lights to get in line at a gas station or convenience store. Once in those lines, they were none to happy and tempers and emotions were on edge. Based on that, I WAS scared of what some idiot might do and that I might not make it home.

David

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Posted By: howard

My God, you're right! The speeding cars were much scarier than the attacks! I live in NYC and I never saw a speeding vehicle until that very day. What was really scary, though, were the paper boys. They were so anxious to be the first to deliver the news that they threw their papers EXTRA hard! I was nearly hit with one and I still suffer from flashbacks.

Cars running red lights! Oh, the humanity!

If you're a comedian I congratulate you and thank you for making me laugh. Otherwise, go get some help.

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Posted By: David Smith

Jeff L,

The two times that terrorists have attacked America, did they hit pizza joints or hair salons?? NO!!

America is further away and logistically harder for the terrorists to bring in the items they need to make teh bombs (but I even question that with the way the border security is).

England, France and Spian are geographically closer to the hot bed of Islamic extremists and with hte open borders of the European Union, it is asier for people to move from country to country. Also, some of the terrorists are home grown over there. They live in those countries and attack the people there.

Before 9/11, the largest and deadlest attack on American soil was on the Alfred P Murray building in Oklahoma City. Carried out, I believe, by right wing (Republican) extremists. Again, a LARGE, public, Government building.

David

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Posted By: David Smith

Howard,

I used your definition of a terrorist attack. If I had said a publicity attack, then people would have thought Paris Hilton or Britney Spears had done something to someone or had something done to them.

David

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Posted By: JimB

Steve,
Your son is doing a truly wonderful thing. You should be proud.
JimB

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

David, I simply am speechless at your words. All I will say is that you are ignorant as to the effect of 9/11 on New Yorkers. And you are ignorant to suggest that Islamic terrorists need sophisticated weaponry which will be difficult to get into the U.S. in order for them to blow themselves up.

I don't know where you live (I'm guessing someplace out west) but I can tell you that I felt more empathy to the victims and citizens of Oklahoma City after the bombing (PS-Tim McVeigh did not commit his crime on behalf of the Republican party) than you feel towards New Yorkers after 9/11.

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Posted By: Bill

I'm taking a solid guess that a few people on here don't understand the definition of "Terrorism".

Check out the fifth paragraph.
http://www.terrorism-research.com/

Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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Posted By: bill latzko

Joe--I'll be glad to buy the first round if we ever "belly up" at the bar!!!

Howard--lived in Italy for much of late 1968-1980; met people of all political viewpoints through daily life itself, through my work in the import business; believe it or not,(get ready for this everyone) my first girlfriend spoke no English and I spoke no Italian when I first arrived as a student--we broke up later over disagreeing about everything; it was later rumored that she helped the neo-facist Tuti escape from the police after he masterminded(committed??) the bombing of one of the train stations in Italy in the early 70's.

Jeff--what an absurd statement on your part. I guess you're the expert on people's IQ on this net 54 and of course IQ determines whether you are right or not on a political issue. Guess the liberals are all below 100 on the IQ scale. And BUSH?????????????

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Bill -- you're insulting liberals to suggest that they believe that Bush was behind 9/11. Only idiots and uneducated people think this and I hardly think that liberals should be described as such -- especially since I'm a social liberal. Don't try to climb on the liberal bandwagon spouting such ridiculous crap; trust me, they don't want you either.

Edited to add: Bill, I heard a young George W. Bush was behind that train explosion.

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Posted By: Brad

Jeff,

Only idiots and uneducated' people think this??? Don't you mean the Media' doesn't want you to think for yourself?

WTC Building 7: You'd be shocked to know how many people believe 9/11 was an inside job! I guess I'm one of the idiots!

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Posted By: Joann

Ted - I don't exactly pride myself in being a law student. Right now it feels a little more like a status I am stuck with! I've put too much into it to turn back, but have a long ways to go.

As to the logical argument, here goes. Yes, FDR interred the Japanese-Americans during World War II. However, this is seen as a low point in both application of war powers and sanctity of constitutional rights in the US. It happened, but there is a collective national embarassment about it. So I don't think it's a good poster child for justifying Bush's current actions.

There is even some thinking that Lincoln was wrong to suspend habeas corpus although much less than with FDR as described above. I'm not sure how you could conduct a Civil War and retain habeas.

More importantly, though, both of those instances involved traditional warfare in which the enemy was a known country or armed force, with uniforms and territory to take. Imprisonment was going to end when the hostilities ended, and in traditional warfare the war usually ends with a definable act - surrender, taking over the land of the opposition, etc.

The "War on Terror" is almost a euphenism in the same manner as the War on Poverty and the War on Drugs. Who, exactly, is the enemy? And more important to the discussion of a president claiming war powers and suspending civil liberties, how will we know when it's over? Who will declare victory? When will it be okay to stop eavesdropping on American citizens? When will the government no longer have the right to get your library or book-buying records without your knowledge, and with no warrants or even ascertainable reason to need them? Bush has never even attempted to describe what an end to the "war" would look like.

The question of what exactly the war is, and what specifically will define the end, are very important when a president is claiming "war powers" to suspend important citizen rights. Since Bush is loosely using the term "war" to claim very substantial "war powers", at minimum he is responsible to define what the war is, when it will end, and carefully limit the scope of his suspensions. Neither FDR nor Lincoln faced such a loosely defined conflict.

Bottom line: Bush's assault on the constitution is far more widespread in the breadth of the rights he is eroding, the much larger net he is throwing in terms of people affected, and the undefined ... undefinable! ... length of time for which he intends to keep these rights compromised. He claims the unimpeded right to listen in on a phone conversation between two American citizens both located within the US. That is far removed from FDR targeting an ethnicity or Lincoln suspending a very particular right in a very particular instance for a defined (at least by event) length of time.

So Ted ... you may not find it persuasive, but I believe it is at least logical. And I still consider you a great guy and walking T206 encyclopedia - despite our obvious political differences.

J

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Brad, so far two people think this as far as I can tell. Oh wait, three -- I forgot Rosie O'Donnell.

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Posted By: Brad

I'm just open mined to all' info provide and made a logical decision!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Brad- when you say 9/11 was an inside job, who on the inside committed it? Who flew those two planes into the buildings? I'm not be glib, I just never heard this theory before.

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Posted By: Brad

Who ever controls the Money "Bankers" control everything!


It's not about inside, it's about which side do you want to be on? I believe this planet is heading towards a One World Government "NWO". (IMHO)

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Bill just sent me an email in which he simply wrote "stick it up your ass."

See, Bill? I told you -- only an idiot would believe that George Bush was responsible for 9/11! It didn't take long for you to prove me right.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

So Brad, who controls the "Money Bankers"?

Barry, can you guess where this one is going?

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Posted By: bill latzko

tried to forward you an email-said yours on the net 54 was "too long" mine is forazzurri1@aol.com--could you forward yours pls bill

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Posted By: Brad

Aaron Russo - Architecture Of A Prison Planet (Pt1)

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Posted By: Brad

business_1012002yahoo.ca

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Posted By: bill latzko

JoAnn thank you for your ability to express so eloquently beliefs and sentiments many of us share. I will admit that mastering foreign languages was easier for me than expressing myself in English..........but that doesn't make my ideas wrong or my IQ low as per the legal expert Mr. Lichtman to whom I did send the above mentioned email----and of course, that still does not make me the idiot, Mr L. it just shows I react emotionally rather than logically at times to right wing drivel such as yours. You CALL yourself a social liberal as you wallow in your jingoistic (that's an SAT word!!!) fascism.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Bill, you're still an idiot. Are you going to stalk me too?