T206 Johnson psa/dna ended early????

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Posted By: Steve D

Yes Joe, my comment was. It was a question. Also, Paul later clarified his comment and stated the emails (to fast eddy) were not nasty, just rude (maybe)


The bottom line here is simply once the seller reneged on his public statement that the auction was not going to end early all protocols were off. Person(s) that had an interest in the card made off line offers as well. We have no idea if he made another deal or just got cold feet thinking he may have left money on the table. All in all he showed that he was not an honorable individual. Paul stated earlier that the seller got many emails not just one.


Steve


edited to add: Sorry he did say they were nasty, the clarification to rude was regarding that they were not violent or threatening.

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Posted By: Joann

I don't like the offline ebay deals that seem unfair to those that relied on a full auction, but I do understand why it's necessary in some cases.

I think it's also fair for someone to email the seller after the auction is shut down and offer even more - even to the extent of causing the seller to cancel the original offline sale. I can't find a way to like one practice while disliking the other PROVIDED that the after-sale email was in pursuit of purchasing the card.

But it's a whole 'nother thing when someone emails the seller to rail on him or berate him when that emailer did not have any interest in the card, was not trying to buy the card, and was not someone that was ever really in play for the card.

I don't know why, but for some reason I can't shake the feeling that that's what happened here. Someone from this board read this thread and decided to use the opportunity to tell the seller what he should or shouldn't do, what is or isn't right, and how he can nor cannot act. Someone just wanted to bitch - plain and simple.

So for Paul - I sincerely hope that this turns out to be a matter of "all's well that ends well". From what is emerging about this seller, it is starting to look like that although you may never know for sure.

As to the person from this board that emailed the seller, I am in agreement with whoever upthread said he should come on here and own up to it.

If the person from this board that emailed is someone that was genuinely interested in the card and was making a play for it, then come on here and say so. I don't think anyone would think too much about that.

But if someone with no interest in the card read this thread and decided to take an opportunity to try to impose his or her opinion on the seller - no matter how shady the seller is - to me that is frivolous interference with a transaction and starts getting close to abuse of access to this forum.

Joann

ETA: Anyone know what it is upthread that is causing the need to scroll to the right? URL's look okay - not sure what it is. Can someone edit their post if it is causing the scroll-right?

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Posted By: Joe D.

to answer your question:
"So if that is the case, then what is wrong with someone emailing the seller (after it has ended and presumably sold) and offering even more dough? "

the answer is: nothing.


but to send the seller a 'nasty' or a'rude' email is wrong. Joann has explained this more eloquently than I would be able to - so I won't even try.

jmho.

have a great evening.


edit: took out a line of type (could have been misinterpreted - and not what was intended)

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Posted By: JK

Steve D, you asked: "So if that is the case, then what is wrong with someone emailing the seller (after it has ended and presumably sold) and offering even more dough?"

In many states, intentionally interfering with a contract between two other parties is actionable. Now, in reality, will someone sue a third party across state lines for such a small amount and with a less than certain ability to prove damages - unlikely.

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Posted By: Steve D

Joe I agree, and it goes w/o saying that sending nasty or rude emails is not a polite thing to do to anyone including this seller.


I think I misinterpreted and that is why I asked the question. But I fully agree that sending emails that are 'nasty' and or 'rude' is not nice.


I think many people were pissed off that the auction was taken out from under them and emailed there frustrations to the seller. JMO


Steve

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Posted By: Joann

Steve,

But in those cases it would be completely okay and even understandable to email the seller, and even be irate about it. If people were frustrated that the auction was taken out from underneath them, then they were genuinely interested in the card and honestly had every right to voice their frustration.

It's the recreational sideline spectator b!tchers that I think are out of line, myself.

Joann

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Posted By: ErlandStevens

Oh boy, I hate to step into this mess, but I just can't resist. I collect more on the memorabilia side than cards. This signed T206 is really more a piece of memorabilia than a card (IMO). Memorabilia on ebay is tough because it's harder to price than cards. Both buyers and sellers are less certain on what the close will be.

I am an idealist with ebay. Auctions simply shouldn't be ended early for an off-ebay sale. Over time, I've learned that this is naive. (I still think it's right, but it's not the reality.) While I've seen lots of stuff close early, I've only been a part of the situation three times...

A little over a year ago, I was going to bid on a lot that closed early. I was steamed and sure that somebody made an offer on it. I admit that I emailed the seller and told him that he very likely made a bad deal. Furthermore, I said that if the buyer was willing to go off ebay to close the auction then I had no problem in going off ebay to make a counter offer. [In my heart I feel like I just disappointed Barry - sorry Barry.] The buyer replied not to worry because he had lots more of the same type of material. He did have some similar stuff, but not the same. I'm still convinced that the seller lost out. Of course, I'm selfish - I couldn't care less about the seller (or ebay). I'm disappointed that *I* missed out.

A few months ago a seller put up a lot with a nice item in it. Wise from my previous experience, I asked the seller not to close it early. Never, he replied. He later said that he was getting a lot of offers. Since he had much similar material, he put everything into one massive lot. I don't have a lot of funds for collecting, and I knew that I had no chance on the big lot. Within 24 hours, both auctions ended. The seller got an offer that he couldn't refuse. Within a couple weeks, the buyer came on this board and showed off part of the lot. I called him on it, but nobody seemed to care. I cannot complain too much. The seller held out an item for me and sold it to me for less than what I had already told him was a fair price.

Last month a nice lot came up, and I again asked the seller not to close it early. He asked what I thought it was worth ($50 was my answer). He said that he was getting a lot of interest and would let it run. Great, I replied. About 12 hours before the close, I placed a bid ($52 or similar). The lot was at like $10. The seller offered to close it for my original offer of $50. I said to just let it ride and figured it would go for $30-40. I ended up being the underbidder to a snipe.

I think that sniping is a source of the problem here. Snipes really leave the seller in the dark. For lots with a clear market value (graded T206 Cobb), anyone with experience in ebay can be somewhat confident about the closing price. For memorabilia with a thinner base, items of value can fall between the cracks. A lack of bidders can make a seller nervous, and poor decisions on an early close can be the result. Any tool that gives a buyer such an advantage is going to lead sellers looking to minimize a perceived loss. The T206 Johnson apparently had a lot more interest than the seller realized. In keeping their cards close, snipers can leave a seller feeling vulnerable. In defense of sniping, it is within the rules of ebay. You still have to be the highest bidder to win the lot. That's not the case with offers to close.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

I gotta admit I am a little surprised at how some people will freely admit that they are essentially willing to do "whatever it takes" to get the card they want. While I have first hand knowledge of several people in the hobby willing to do just about anything to get what they want (a little creepy and wierd if you ask me) but I find it strange those that would come on a public forum and admit they would throw out their morals for a card or two, guess that is one way to clean up the hobby huh!

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Posted By: fkw

Im surprised at how crazy this post got.

I thought that card was a $2K to $3K card at best. Shows how much I know.

Wish I would have picked up all the signed T206 cards I used to see in those 1985-90s auctions.

It seems like every single auction house (pre eBay) had one or two signed T206's, and sometime big (tough sig) names like Waddell, Mathewson, Cobb, Young, etc. I dont have time now to go through all my catelogs (I have over 80 packed away from my move).
Here are 2 scans from a San Francisco auction house I used to drive to and bid/watch all the time (Wolffers). Thought you might want to see them. I'll scan all the others when I finally get around to unpacking my books etc. and show them next time this gets brought up.



PS.Sorry to hear the deal didnt go through. Ive had it happen a couple times and know how it feels to a smaller degree.

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Posted By: howard

I agree with dan Paradis 100%. The seller thought he could make more dough so he reneged on his deal.

Edited because Dan already posted almost the exact comment I just did.

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Posted By: Richard Simon

To fkw - hope you were only watching those two T206 signed cards and not bidding.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: Paul Moss

Snipes the source of the problem? Let's get a grip on reality here.

"Last month a nice lot came up, and I again asked the seller not to close it early. He asked what I thought it was worth ($50 was my answer). He said that he was getting a lot of interest and would let it run. Great, I replied. About 12 hours before the close, I placed a bid ($52 or similar). The lot was at like $10. The seller offered to close it for my original offer of $50. I said to just let it ride and figured it would go for $30-40. I ended up being the underbidder to a snipe."

Someone thought that the lot was worth more than you and was willing to pay accordingly. You had a shot at a price level you thought was a market valuation off ebay, yet you passed thinking that you would get it for substantially less, rolled the dice, and lost. Now snipes are the problem? Sorry, I must be missing something here.

With my personal auctions, I state that I do not end auctions early and stick to this policy. I have developed a loyal buyer following over the years who know that there will be no games played and have a chance of winning the item. All they have to do is bid, and bid high enough to beat the competition. God, I do so love the free market system. A seller will never really profit in the long run by accepting these behind the scenes offers. Bidders remember sellers who have pulled the rug from under them which could affect future business dealings, and if the truth be known, 99.9% of the time, these offers are under market. These games might work with sellers who just rode into town on the haywagon, but any true professional will take a pass knowing that this buyer's offer is nowhere near the true value which in all probability and barring a catastrophe of biblical proportions, will be reached in the auction format.

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

Sniping is one of many things that leads to sellers ending auctions early.  A seller that is getting few bids may get nervous and opt to end an auction early without knowing that there are many snipes in place. 

If the sniping sites simply sent the ebay seller and email stating that a snipe had been placed on his or her auction then the seller would not be as tempted to end the auction early. 

If I were selling a high ticket item, it sure would be nice to know that even though I have only a few bids there are many snipes already set...

Its seems simple enough.

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Posted By: keyway

I have had this done to me several times. IMO the seller who does this is a puke. Once a bid is excepted the item should always go to the end. By the same token IMO the bidder who does this is also a puke. He is only a greedy person who has no regard for an honest auction. Standing up for either is a joke.

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Posted By: Matt

Paul - "the true value which in all probability and barring a catastrophe of biblical proportions, will be reached in the auction format."

I agree with everything yous said except the piece quoted; I think it's fairly common to see listings end at less then "true value" on ebay; I have had several instances where the seller left money on the table by not accepting an offer of mine, and I won the card anyway.

(my presumption is that the "true value" which Paul speaks of is a pre-determined market value based on multiple prior sales. Saying "true value" is determined by whatever the current auction ends at is not what we're discussing, since then Paul's assertion that the auction format brings "true value" is nothing more then a definition)

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Posted By: Jason L

since the post count had skyrocketed past 150 since last I looked...knew something had to be going on.

Paul, very sorry to hear this.
You made a valiant attempt at a collection centerpiece, so you did what you could.

Regardless of the seller's motivation for pulling it from you, he now may have a few hurdles to overcome if he tries the Ebay route again, given the exposure and opinions from this thread (credibility, authenticity, etc).
Which means if he truly wants to part with it, we should expect to see it in one of Mastro's upcoming auctions.

But at least now we are all fully aware that college football coaches are active in the collecting community!

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Posted By: Paul Moss

Matt

Ebay is efficient in its inefficiency. It sets a "value" per se, on any specific item at any specific time as an object is only worth what someone is willing to pay. Forget guides and services providing market trends. We live with a very thinly traded market and when two high rollers have been butting heads on a specific set driving prices to the stratosphere relative to prior levels, what happens when one or both either have the card, or quit the set altogether? A virtual collapse!

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Posted By: Matt

Paul - this discussion is really off-topic, but which of the following are you claiming:
(for our purposes, I'm using "established market value" to mean the price an identical item has sold for on multiple occasions)

1) An item sold on open auction will always realize its established market value (barring an act of God as you say).

2) By definition, an item sold on open auction is worth whatever it ends as.

If you are only stating #2, I don't see how that is relevant to a discussion of a seller taking an offer to end the listing early; after all, if the established market value is more then the item will end up at it, he would be making a wise decision in taking the offer at the established market value. Of course this is a gamble, but it's not always a bad move by the seller as you suggest.

If you are claiming #1 then I debate that since I often see ebay listings end for less then established market value.

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Posted By: ErlandStevens

Paul M. - You're totally right. Somebody set a snipe that beat my highest bid, and that person won the auction. I don't have a problem with losing to a snipe as long as I get a chance to put in my bid(s) within the time frame of the auction. However, from a seller's perspective, snipes do leave the seller in the dark. I do think that could lead to some lots (especially ones that are tough to price) to be closed early from offers.

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Posted By: Solomon Cramer

1) People wonder why items (by and large) get more money in major auctions than on ebay. Here is a shining example. You're dealing with a flake seller, who either has no idea what he's doing or doesn't care, jerking around everyone interested in an item. I haven't read them lately, but I'm sure ebay's TOS explicitly forbids the side deal that happened here...how much credibility does the seller have if he's going to violate the TOS of his initial contract.

Can you imagine if Mastro et al pulled a stunt like this? At least with a major catalog auction, I know a) the highest bid will win, b) the seller/auction house actually has the item in hand, ready to ship when they receive my payment, and c) isn't going to call me up three days later with a sob story how they were threatened by someone who wanted the item more than me.

2) Any seller who is going to grab the fast buck and take a (preceived) above market figure for his item is just undermining his long term success as a dealer/seller. Just as Paul mentioned, I cannot recall ever having pulled an item off ebay to sell it to someone privately. I ended auctions early at times, usually when I realized an error in the listing, or because I screwed something up. But I took pride, that if I posted an item for sale, people could expect that the highest bid would take it. And I always felt I got a premium over people who were jerking around, opening and closing auctions, etc.

3) From a practical standpoint, why should a buyer not do "whatever it takes" to get what they want? A buyer doesn't need to have any credibility - just money. Sellers aren't going to ban a buyer for making an offer early. The only thing stopping a buyer from doing so is eBay's TOS - if they are comfortable ignoring the rules they agreed to follow, that is the only impediment.


It's bullsh#! like this which is why ebay is fundamentally a flea market, instead of a real commerce/auction site, and will never be a premium vehicle for sales.

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Posted By: Paul Moss

Off-topic? Since when has a thread ever gone off-topic on Net54?

"For our purposes, I'm using "established market value" to mean the price an identical item has sold for on multiple occasions."

Already we hit a stumbling block with this statement. Please understand that I am refering to vintage cards and not the shiny-shiny modern commodity cards. Having said that, I will state that rarely will two vintage cards are truly identical despite the holder and assigned grade. There are God awful ugly looking 4's, 5's, and 6's, and then again, there are 4's, 5's and 6's that take your breath away with their appearance. Are they truly worth the same (+/- 10%)?

"1) An item sold on open auction will always realize its established market value (barring an act of God as you say)."

Most of the time, yes. Sure there are exceptions, but MOST of the time, an item will bring what it's actually worth for that specific item.


"2) By definition, an item sold on open auction is worth whatever it ends as.

If you are only stating #2, I don't see how that is relevant to a discussion of a seller taking an offer to end the listing early; after all, if the established market value is more then the item will end up at it, he would be making a wise decision in taking the offer at the established market value. Of course this is a gamble, but it's not always a bad move by the seller as you suggest."

Hell if I know. Everyone has to operate their business as they see fit. The thread regarding "Why did this card sell so high" on this page of the board certainly supports my stance. What is the "established" value of this item? When bidding was around $40, I received offers of 200 and 250. A neophyte seller might have jumped, but as I stated previously, 99.9% of the time, these offers are lowball at best, or attempts at outright thievery at worst.

The matter of "established value" can be debated ad infinitum. Sure there are instances where items slip under the radar, and times when they sell at ridiculously high levels, but overall and on average, the field has a tendancy to be level.

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Posted By: Steve D

I used to drive to and bid/watch all the time (Wolffers).


Didn't that guy "Wolffers" get busted for selling fakes?

Sorry if this post is not on the original topic.


Steve

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Posted By: Paul Moss

Richard Wolffers in San Francisco back in the late 80's, early 90's?


I thought that he died.............

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Posted By: Joe D.

from the Wolffers Auctions, May 1995

I don't know if it is real or fake - I am not even close to qualified to make that type of determination.

sure looks very similar to how McGinnity "signed" his T206 (shown in this thread)

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Posted By: leon

My view on this whole issue is summed up in 2 words....."poetic justice"......

Karma my friends....what comes around goes around...and all of those other sayings....

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Paul,

He jumped off a bridge to his death.

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Posted By: Joe D.

I hate to hear things like that.

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Posted By: Paul Moss

Jim

No Sh**!

I knew him when he was a part-timer in the mid 60's working fulltime as a TWA jet engine mechanic.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Wolffer's Auctions were run (and I believe owned) by Duane Garrett.

All sorts of odd bidding occurred in his auctions, and eventually it became clear that something was clearly wrong.

For whatever reason, related to the auction or otherwise, Duane took his own life around 1995. He jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge. It was a tragic story, as I knew Duane personally and always thought he was a standup guy. But something was going on that we didn't know about.

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Posted By: Paul Moss

Barry is correct. It was Duane who jumped off the bridge. I remember there was some deal over stiffing Pillar for 200K over a Gehrig jersey, and there were a whole bunch of investors who had millions (?) placed with him that errr...couldn't be found.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Duane--thats right.

Never knew him personally but they would have live auctions in the early 90s and I would be on an active phone line for the entire auction.

Bought a few trimmed cards from their auctions and bought some legit ones for a song.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Duane did get some really nice stuff- I still have all their old auction catalogs.

But many times he would achieve prices that were ten times the previous world's record, and that simply didn't make any sense. It made more sense when we found out those sales never took place, and he was merely drawing attention to his auction house in order to get future consignments. But that whole scheme backfired and the business began to unravel.

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Posted By: JK

"He is only a greedy person who has no regard for an honest auction"


An "honest auction" - now that is one funny statement what with all the shill bidding and other dishonest acts that sellers commonly engage in on ebay.

Paul was not greedy. He tried to obtain a card that he felt would be central to his collection. I hold nothing against him for trying - my guess is, if asked and if honest, 90% of the board members would admit to asking a seller to end an auction early. If I had lost out on the card, sure, I would have been pissed. And then I would have gotten over my disappointment like an adult and congratulated Paul for getting the card - as opposed to berating the seller for screwing me out of a card (that I might not have won anyway) simply to try and mess up Paul's deal.

Leon - Karma? In other words, you think Paul got what was coming to him? Im just curious if you have ever asked a seller to end an auction early. If not, then I commend you. If so, then I really think that statement is a bit hypocritical - or did Karma also come back and bite you on those occasions as well?

As far as ending an auction early - your agreement with ebay does not prevent you from ending an auction early "because the item is no longer available for sale." Ebay has to allow this because the item belongs to the seller and, in the end, it is his to do with as he pleases. So, if you end an auction "because its no longer available for sale" does that mean you cant ever sell it again or if you do that it must be via ebay? Of course not. There is virtually no difference between a seller who ends an auction to sell it off line, and one who ends an auction because its no longer for sale and then wakes up the next day and decides he is going to sell after all. The only reason ebay doesnt like it is because they lose out on fees - and, of course, ebay has every right to be upset about that and, if it wishes, take away your bidding or selling privileges. It doesnt, however, have any right to prevent the offline sale.

Further, if ebay wants me to be concerned about its ability to generate profits and refrain from such practices, then it ought to be concerned about my ability to detect whether an auction Im bidding on is being shilled by eliminating the anonymous bidding on anything over 200.

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Posted By: Matt

Josh - "my guess is, if asked and if honest, 90% of the board members would admit to asking a seller to end an auction early."

Josh - please don't confuse this with asking a seller to end the listing before an item has any bids. I'd imagine your 90% figure is correct if the item has no bids. However, I think in an instance, such as this one, where not only did the item have bids after being up for 5 days, the seller had made an open statement that he would not be ending the auction early, I don't think anywhere near 90% of the board would still ask the seller to end the item early.

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Posted By: leon

As usual I disagree with a lot of what you think and say..I don't get your "hypocritical" analogy . "Hypocritical" is saying one thing and doing something else. I have never said I haven't asked a seller to end an auction. You are wrong on that statement about me. Let me try to answer the questions pertaining to me. Yes, I think Paul (hi Paul) got what was coming to him. I don't think he was greedy he was just doing what he had to, to try to ascertain the card. For the record I like Paul and hate to see this happen but yes, I think he had it coming to him. I have asked for sellers to end auctions and have had every conceivable thing happen. I never used to ask but when I found out everyone else did then I joined in the reindeer games. I have had the same thing happen to me as happened to Paul too. I just felt like it was part of the game and while disappointed, I knew I got what was coming to me, from the kind of seller that would end an auction after saying he wouldn't end it, so moved on without too much grief. So yes, I have, and it's happened to me too. No big deal. I am not holier than thou....I am sure you are so honest that if someone went behind your back and did something to get a card that you would never do the same. Very commendable of you for that. I AM NOT that good of a sport and if someone went behind me to get a card I would do the same. I would NOT DO IT just to wreck a sale though. I think that would be petty but if I truly wanted the card then I see no difference with me making a deal after the card was swept out from under me in the same fashion....For the record I didn't email this seller...and think he is just a greedy person and will end up losing out in some form or fashion. regards

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Posted By: Fred C

I've been reading over and over how some people feel that it is deplorable to see an auction ended early.

Everyone has the same opportunity to make the seller an offer and end the auction. If it is a very tough item (rare or scarce) then it might be in your best interest to let the seller know you are interested. In the same email you might want to let the seller know that you might top an offer made by someone else (to end the auction). That does two things: 1) it lets the seller know you are interested in the item. 2) it may get the seller to think it through and to not pull the auction because of the extreme interest in the card.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I have never asked a seller to end an auction early.

And I have done just the opposite- I have convinced sellers not to accept any offers to close as I (and others) plan to bid very aggressively on the item. And that has actually worked for me a few times.

And Leon- Is there any way to condense this thread? It's torture to read. Can't you do a tiny url, or a Tiny Tim, or whatever it's called?

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Posted By: Joann

If the seller reneged b/c he got a different or better offer, then to me that's okay.

It is very clear from this thread how much the card meant to Paul to try to get. Suppose Paul was going to try to bid and win in in full auction format, and someone else got the seller to end early? I would absolutely understand it if Paul then approached the seller about why he shut down early, said he really wanted the card, and asked for an opportunity to make a better offer than the one that got the auction shut down.

If a potential bidder got blind-sided by an early end, I really don't see how it's different for him to ask for one last shot from the seller. Asking to undo this kind of transaction for a bona fide offer is not all that different than asking to end an auction early for a bona fide offer.

However, if the emails to the seller were from people that were only half-interested, or hoping it would somehow fall through the cracks with the holidays, or completely uninvolved third parties that just wanted to interfere, then I don't think that Paul "got what was coming to him". Not at all.

J

Oh - and regardless of where we all stand on the buyers' positions in these matters, I am in complete agreement with most people that have posted so far. The sellers that do these things - end early, undo done deals, etc - have almost no reasonable argument in their favor. Their name is mud (or Mudd, if you have seen National Treasure II yet!)

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Posted By: DJ

First off, red lights should be going off in regards to all these signed T206 cards that are showing up. You never saw close to this many a few years back, but people have figured out that they can take a $20 card, add a common signature and turn it into a $200-300 item. I won't even comment about this Johnson and that Chance, McG and Mathewson are amusing.

As far as ending auctions early, eBay is an auction site and not a site where something is displayed until an offer can be made. I can't stand people who end auctions early and won't deal with them.

Is anyone surprised that people will do anything to get that desired card?

Not me.

Happy Holidays all!

DJ

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Posted By: JK

Leon,

I never said nor implied that you were the one who asked the seller to go back on his deal with paul. If you have asked sellers to end auctions early and recognized that in the future you too would get what was coming to you for doing so (or in fact did when the sale was pulled out from under you) then you are correct, your statement is not at all hypocritical (for what its worth, Im very aware of the words definition). My point was based on an assumption that if you've engaged in the same or similar conduct, you most likely thought there was nothing wrong with doing so at the time you did it. If that were the case, then it was hypocritical to say that Paul got what was coming to him. Obviously, from what you are saying above, you recognize that its "wrong" when you do it as well and accept any and all consequences - in that context, your statement is not hypocritical.

Matt, no, I believe most people on this board at some time or another have asked a seller to end an auction after bids have been placed. Regardless of what many say publicly or whether they would admit it, I guarantee you the percentage who have done so is very high.

Joanne - Im really surprised that you have no issue with the seller renegging AFTER a deal has been struck and a contract has been formed. I realize no one is going to go to court over this stuff, but I can think of a hundred factually analogous situations that could arise in a non-ebay, non-card context and I doubt you would counsel a prospective client on such a breach of contract issue that they were not wronged.

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Posted By: chris bland

The thread isnt long (scrolling side to side) because of URLs - it is long because of the post with the line of unbroken asterisks in it.

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Posted By: Paul S

It may or may not be the asterisks, but it is certainly at least due to the large scan of Mathewson. All that white space to the right of the scan is actually PART of the scan. Scans don't wrap, they push the page out as far wide as it needs to fit....that allows any text in the thread to take up that width too before it will wrap.

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Posted By: leon

Thanks Chris....I think the asterisks did it(elongated posts)as I just shortened them and it seems to have worked...To reiterate one more time. I don't think what Paul did was wrong as much as I don't think what he got done to him was wrong (both were in the same vein).....The seller went back on his word, a few times, and that is wrong imo.....Also, if he did want to sell it off line he should have done it through ebay so they could garner their fees....and, yes, I have had sellers do the same for me but I do always tell them I would prefer a BIN option....regards

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Posted By: Joann

Josh,

You're right. I guess I have to rethink that whole reneging thing.

To put a finer point on it, I think it's okay from the bidder/buyer/offeror end but not so much from the seller end, and only in the cases such as we are talking about here - where the auction ended early b/c of an offline offer.

In this case, the sale was advertised as an auction that would end at a specific time, not at a specific dollar amount since it did not have a BIN. Buyers relied on the seller statement (inherent in the auction format and regardless of the express statement added later) that they would have until Time X on Day Y to put in their offers.

When, as in this case, an auction disappears, I think it is okay for the other bidders to jump in with subsequent offers to try to undo the sale. The sale itself is already on kind of thin ice if it was accomplished by an offline offer to end early, and I think that those that were counting on an opportunity to offer later are perfectly okay to try to do so.

The seller? Heck he's already out on a limb for ending the auction early, so undoing that transaction is just the next shade of shady. I suppose if you do get someone to end early, you should probably assume that the seller could also be the type to sell the item out from underneath you in the next day or so.

So now is there a gray grace period after an early end, in which sellers will wait for even more offers to make sure he gets the best one? Who knows. I sure don't. It's all a gray area of ethics once a seller agrees to end an auction early.

It still gets me, this irony that if a seller ends early and then entertains other offers - or even waits a day or two for them - he is running an auction. So what's the point? That he now has some floor/minimum he's guaranteed to get? Isn't that what reserves are for?

It's all very hazy to me, in terms of both the ethics and the point.

J

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Posted By: JK

"To put a finer point on it, I think it's okay from the bidder/buyer/offeror end but not so much from the seller end"

Glad we got the seller out of the way. Maybe Im wrong, but without researching the issue, it would seem that the bidder/buyer/offeror (I assume you mean the second in line - ie the one who offers more money to get the seller to reneg) has tortiously interfered with another's contract - so he isnt off the hook either.

"In this case, the sale was advertised as an auction that would end at a specific time, not at a specific dollar amount since it did not have a BIN. Buyers relied on the seller statement (inherent in the auction format and regardless of the express statement added later) that they would have until Time X on Day Y to put in their offers."

Correct, but the seller formed no contract with any of these potential offerors and was under no obligation to continue to accept offers/bids if he found a deal to his liking.

"When, as in this case, an auction disappears, I think it is okay for the other bidders to jump in with subsequent offers to try to undo the sale."

See above.

"The seller? Heck he's already out on a limb for ending the auction early, so undoing that transaction is just the next shade of shady."

True, but I still believe that this is permitted by ebay's rules (though obviously ebay would prefer that it be done by revising the auction and putting it up with a BIN so it gets its fees). The fact that it was done off line is shady only to the extent that the seller is trying to save himself a couple hundred in ebay fees - its not shady simply because he chose to end the auction early and accept an unsolicited offer.

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Posted By: Fred C

What was mentioned earlier about using ebay and the BIN works great for a couple of reasons:

1) ebay (which provides the web presence) should collect their fee for the sale because it was their outlet that presented the opportunity of the sale.

2) The buyer and seller are then obligated to fulfill the deal by sending payment and sending the item. The BIN provides a contract between the seller and buyer. Sure, an off-line deal may have forward looking statements that may be implied but there is no contract.

Overall, the BIN presents an obligation. I know I'm going to get a load of crap for this but "oh well" - when I strike a deal with someone on ebay to end an auction I always tell them to set the BIN and then email me the new item number ASAP. There's no guarantee I'll get the item but I'll have the best chance of anyone because I know the item is coming up. Also, I don't do it often.

One other thing. You can be in a discussion with the seller to end an item early and someone might throw a bid on the item while the details are being negotiated. Does that mean that the seller should cancel their deal with you because someone threw a bid on the item while terms of the sale of the item were being discussed? Rationalize it anyway you want to. You'll never know if discussions were going on about an item before you bid on it.

When on ebay, do like the other ebayers (go ahead and try to end the auction early, if you don't someone else might. Also, try not leaving your signature when you ask the seller to end an item early because your name will be present in the Q/A section of the item description (if the seller opts to place the comment in the item description).

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Posted By: Joann

Josh - everything you say is perfectly correct, but I wasn't really making any arguments about what is legally allowable or technically permitted (or not permitted). I was coming at it from a basis of ethics, courtesy, and a sense of fairness in the air - which we all know can vary from the legal outcomes.

My comments were my own opinion on what I think of the various (sometimes hypothetical) players, actions and outcomes, nothing more. I find it's not that unusual for my personal sense of justice to differ from what the law says. Don't get me going on some of the eminent domain rulings!

J

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Wolffers catalogs were a guide book for bogus autographs as much as a certain current "auction house" is today.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: JK

Fred,

I agree with most everything you've stated except your statement that "an off-line deal may have forward looking statements that may be implied but there is no contract."

That is just flat out wrong. If I offer someone a sum of money for a card and they accept my offer, there has been an offer, an acceptance, valid consideration and an intention to create a legal relationship. You do not need ebay or a BIN to form a contract.

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Posted By: Fred C

You're right, I guess it could constitute a contract but the BIN (IMO) seems more binding. The buyer or seller could make up inaccuracies regarding the terms of the sale and then it would be a mess to prove anything in a court of law. Heresay this and heresay that.

"Do you, Card Collector A swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?"

What if Card Collector A is an atheist with his fingers crossed behind his back?