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Posted By: leon

Any lawyer (is there one around here ?) would say that a written statement/guarantee would supersede a verbal one, I think. If SGC wants it to be that "any" SGC graded card, maybe "only" under the new ownership, has a lifetime guarantee then they need to put it in their policy, in writing, imho. I doubt they want to be pigeon holed like that though. I have never had an issue with them and do believe they will stand behind their product 100%. I only use SGC as I respect their graders, and consistency, more than any others....but the written policy does leave a few holes. Just one person's opinion here....(how am I doing on apostrophes lately, Barry?)

crap, edited spelling ....thanks Barry...and I thought I was doing so good.

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Posted By: Dave

It is funny that Crandell for the second day in a row comes on here in the morning and spews a few controversial statements and then he is off again..probably sitting back and enjoying the fires he sets.

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Posted By: leon

in Jim's defense......He might actually have a job so lets be a little careful there....Not everyone spends 20 hours a day on the board like I do (that's a joke, I only spend 3/4 of that)

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Posted By: Dave

Your right Leon...he probably does have a job...and unfortunately a MUCH better job than I do ...ha ha

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Posted By: E, Daniel

You're quite right Wonka.

Jim should shut up about card alteration.
I should shut up about a greener world while I continue to use plastic at the supermarkets, don't re-cycle effectively, don't drive a hybrid, run the lights outside my house 7:00pm - 11:00pm because It makes my wife feel safer, fail to get involved in any sort of activism, all sorts of stuff that doesn't gist with my sense of what the right thing to do is.
But I won't.
Just because I feel it's so much harder for me as an individual to fight every societal choice that makes it so difficult to do the right thing. If the Local government supplied me with the various bins for recycling I would make the effort to very carefully sort my refuse. If long life non-incandescent lightbulbs that didn't deposit large amounts of mercury in the soil were available at 5 times the price of existing, but were 10x as energy efficient I would buy them.
If I could buy a car that I could plug into my house electical socket to recharge overnight, and still manage to get to and from work 45 miles away on the one charge, I would buy one. No matter how ugly it looked

So, while I participate vigorously (but hopefully always charmingly) in debates on how to be kinder to the world we live in, I am not in personification a leading edge to all I believe in. Perhaps if I were still single I could manage it, but with a family to mesh with I feel the need to not burden their lives with the things I feel strongly about.

I get what you say about Jim. I realize his inconsistencies and complete lack of charm in his writings. That perhaps the only way he could balance much of the dislike he generates would be with an act of real unselfishness and thus prove his honesty to the ideal. I still believe this argument used in discussion has not been to facilitate that occuring, but is a tool to make him feel like he should shut up about what he cares for because he cannot argue fairly against the idea of having his own collection re-evaluated and perhaps take a real life changing blow financially. After all, money should never be stacked up against a true moral ideal.....
Much like you might aim against my idealism but weakness of action. I still feel I can admire my own beliefs even tempered against the lack of real will to be the agent for change.

I think a just cause is just, regardless of the qualifications of the speaker.

Daniel

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Posted By: Joe D.

There is a big difference in participating in spirited debates yet not living up to your ideals and
spearheading a movement to enact change.

Huge difference actually.

Jim is spearheading a movement or attempting to gather people to do so. He is not just stating his ideals.

It would be like the chariman of PETA going home in a fur coat.


edit to say: that was not a commentary about Jim... but more a commentary on why I really did not like your analogy.

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Posted By: John

Daniel,

I would only point out your above so-called environmental short comings if you were on environmental sites telling us all how were killing the earth and so on.

Its not even the fact that he should be the first etc to buck the system, he openly stated above he would pass on the problems he may be aware of to the next guy. That is not what the self appointed leader of a proposed hobby “Code of Conduct” should be saying in an open forum, would you agree?

It raises many questions does the “Code of Conduct” not apply to him, and would anyone really take this chance at this so called new system to clean up the hobby from a person who is using the same system he is trying to police others from exploiting??

If Jim really truly believes in this project which at this point I doubt due to his actions over the past months. Then all he has done is damaged any momentum he may have spearheaded and really lost creditability with people who may have supported the concept.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Joe D, I think the analogy is unfair as I would guess that Jim has built his collection through times when the knowledge of wide-spread tampering with cards was not heavily discussed.
That fur, well, it may have cost alot but when you bought it you knew the money was going down the toilet, and no-one would ever give you more than 10 cents on the dollar if you were suddenly given the chairmanship of Peta. So maybe, 5K down the toilet?

But how about the house you own. Maybe it was made out of the least energy efficient materials possible, and now you work for a leading edge energy tech company. Knowing the thousands of dollars of wasted energy it uses every year, do you rip it down and start again. Take a hit of 200K?
Or do you sell to the next guy and bitch about its major failures and be willing to take 80K less than market..?

I just think its an extraordinary example he is being asked to set, and a financial beating I can't imagine ANYONE else being willing to risk.

Daniel

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Posted By: Dave

Jim Crandell is not just holding unto 100's of T206's in high grade. He has high grades sets of all types...all the way up through the 1970's...maybe later I don't know. There are other high grade cards Jim has that could be put to the test (assuming he'd agree to Paul)...without having to do so with the high dollar T206's he owns.

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Posted By: Joe D.

I want to state that I am not specifically talking about Jim.
As I have not really had the opportunity to listen to all of his opinions on the matter and his proposals... I cannot form an informed or fair opinion.


What I will say in general... and where I think you are off the mark is....

Anyone - absolutely anyone - who is an activist for a specific cause, must practice what he preaches or he/she will lose all credibility and in should expect to be wide open to criticism.

You and I talking about our ideals... well, it is understandable if we don't live up to them.

But someone who is an activist - has to live up to the opinions and proposals he puts forth.... otherwise why listen to him?

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Posted By: E, Daniel

He very clearly does not curry ANY respect anymore on this board, so ANY endeavour he would embark upon would be a failed one.
His doing, absolutely, and a politician he aint.

But this wasn't a thread about him trying to curry support for his mission. More a post with some foot in mouth, and the answer again was to either shut him up or mock him. There was no serious debate going on, just a chat that grew into some flaming.....and the ultimate flame is to tell someone they don't even deserve to be part of the conversation.
My take, but I give up.


Daniel

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Posted By: barrysloate

Leon- apostrophes+ A+

spelling- should be "supersede"

We allow for one spelling error!

Oops, just noticed your "lets" needs an apostrophe, as in contraction for "let us." Hey, what can you do.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Joe D.

The answer to that is, because what they say feels true. Perhaps they have an ability to tell a story in a way that gets through to people, and changes opinion for the better.

I don't know what kind of man Martin Luther King was in his home. Or JFK. But for me, completely inconsequential to their messages. They could turn out to be scumbags and it wouldn't change the underlying truths they were able to articulate.

So respectfully, I disagree.

Daniel

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Posted By: John

Daniel,

Good in theory but if JFK or MLK were alive today in the media super blender of today they may have had any dreams crushed. Times were a bit simpler back then.

But I agree with you convey the message, however if you want to be a leader you better act like one, Jim is not acting like a leader IMO, do you think his actions and responses have bettered his cause??

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Posted By: barrysloate

John- I agree with you. Jim had a very good idea and I do believe he was sincere, even if part or much of his motivation was related to his own collection. There is nothing wrong with protecting your own interests.

But he has not done a very good job at all in trying to unite people for a common goal. I think he has been confrontational to everyone who arguably could have been one of his allies. I too feel that it would be pointless for Jim at this point to form any kind of coaltion because he has lost most of his support.

A great idea, but not gone about the right way.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Wonka, he's done the crappiest job I've seen on anything since the guy I had round to fix my pond....took over 6 weeks to get it running

And agree again about today's media. It's why we get so many below average politicians, whose only real abilities lie in carefully morphing an image so as to get elected. Me, I want a politician with a wart on his ass and a giant brain in his scull! Err, if it's a her's it's fine too!

Daniel

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Well where do I start.

First I obviously do not care what anyone on this board thinks of me--I actually laugh as I read the comments. I love T206 the best--unbeleievably uneducated observations. Bretta and Dave seem to be attack dogs without much to add.

I do have a job and cannot stay at the computer matching posts with Dave, T206 and Bretta.

Have to run again but I only respond to the attacks of others. Like a savvy politician--leave no attack unanswered. Second, I am just amazed how in the dark people like T206 are about the hobby. Third, how low can you get posting the contents of a private e-mail on a public message board. Here is a person(T206) with absolutely no class.

So you all who want to attack me some more have at it--if you are interested in any part of the graded card hobby I will respond. If you have any questions or any specifics in your personal diatribes go ahead but you all are making yourselves look pretty ridiculous.

And I guess this was a question but no I am not resubmitting any of my 25,000 psa 8 cards to sgc(even though Dave Forman is a personal friend and I have great respect for him) and no Dave I am not in this for financial reasons but I have a budget and I take advantages of surges in value for some cards which I believe are unsustainable so I can buy others which represent good value. I then buy them back at lower prices. If I do say so that strategy has worked spectacularly well.

Dave , T206, Bretta--have fun attacking me the next few hours--I won't be here. Ha ha ha ha.

Dav

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Posted By: dennis

i knew when i read jims post b4 i went to work today at 6 am,that he would again come under attack (as he would surely think)...but also to read leon defend jim AND post on a willie mays card, wow! also daniels defense of jim c. is priceless. does anyone really think (that anyone) can clean up the mess with the doctoring of cards when the prices continue to sky rocket even for the armpit collectors such as myself?

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Posted By: T206Collector

...classless, uneducated and in the dark does not respond to the merits of the many posts here that find you incredibly hypocritical. When someone resorts to baseless name calling, that is usually a sign of a losing argument -- if our e-mails were personal or in confidence, you sure could have fooled me.

I think Leon said it best a few posts ago, but it bears repeating -- having won the argument, I'll stop participating now.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Again, I don't see the point of these discussions. Do we really want our cards (graded or ungraded; high grade or low grade) to become worthless? It seems that most of the proponents of this conspiracy are talking out of their a**ses; or maybe just I am, which is certainly possible. But, I haven't seen one scintilla of evidence that should promote this conversation from a case-by-case analysis to some sort of pandemic.

What, then, is the purpose, other than rendering our cards worthless (or less valuable), by engaging in all of this babble?????

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Posted By: jeffdrum

If it is worth that is the concern, and if that worth is based upon something being something that it is not then I find a basis for discussion. I certainly don't think it is anyone's intention to render their collections worthless.

Not reviewed for the correct use of the apostrophe.

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Whew,

I exposed T206 for the fool he is--time to move on.

Barry and Daniel,

I never said I had to be a leader in this but while I have seen a large number of collectors genuinely concerned, I have seen noone step up to lead the charge. Both Bruce and Mike Uhl have had some good ideas but they both involve $100 or more up front fees. It requires money but above all it requires time.
I could do it but I have a 60-hour a week job and I travel almost every week.

Its not dead--just have to get those collectors who are genuinely concerned about card alteration and come up with a plan. Not many of them hang out here...but there are some.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, I'm curious as to why you never directly responded to Corey's comment. Perhaps you were too busy describing someone as "unbeleievably [sic]uneducated." Well, at least you spelled "uneducated" correctly.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff,

I didn't realize he made one--and I don't proofread what I say and I am a lousy typer--do you want to add those things to what you attack me for?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

You manage to catch all the perceived insults but miss the constructive criticism. And Jim, again, remember that me, Barry, Leon and many others supported you for a long while. You're just too distasteful to be around evn on a vintage baseball card board. Why can't you understand that people don't like you for one simple reason -- you're not likeable?

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Posted By: Dave

Maybe it's time you take your lunatic erratic self and go play in some corner with Dick Cheney. Alike minds...alike self-absorbed.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Response to Corey:

1)I have been "very supportive of your efforts to rid the hobby of altered cards".

Thank you-I noticed you made a supportive comment once. Want to help?

2)I have "taken at face value the sincerity of your feelings"--you should--why would I do things that hurt the value of my collection.

3) Its "hypocritical" not to break out my own cards out of PSA 8 holders and resubmit to SGC.

Corey--this is unrealistic--you would not find any substantial high grade collector willing to do this. It is likely I have some altered cards as everyone does and likely some of my 8s could be judged as 7s by SGC. I will devote money, time and effort to trying to fix the hobby but I am not going to do an experiment on my psa 8s.

4)"You would gain instant credibility and respect"--who cares--not important to me if I am liked respected or credible by net54 board members--the facts are what they are--if people want to close their eyes to card alteration fine. As I said I am a good survivor in the wild wild west.

Jim


5)Lastly, others have done things on a smaller scale in terms of breaking out cards from one grading service4 to see how they would grade in another.

Jim

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff,

I don't care if I am likable or not likable--I have tons of friends in and out of the hobby and could care less if you or others are my friend--in fact I would rather not be.

Barry is a nice guy but his primary concern is retaining his hobby friendships and dealer relationships. At the end of the day I think Barry would just punt and say its the card vgraders responsibility.

Leon gets his digs in at me and I think he was supportive in part until Scott came out and attacked me(I don't even know him) and Leon who is buddies with him started changing how he interacted with me.

I never saw you as being supportive. At least Barry attended our hobby dinner to discuss alteration.

Dave the Dunce--great comment--keep it up

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Posted By: Dave

Dave the Dunce...

Really great comment there Jim. I could go the route of Jim the Jackass...but then I'd be playing on your third grade level. Your an old tiresome act. Everything said to you on this board, by everybody...not just Dan and I...are brought on by yourself. And yes, I know you "dont care if people like you or not". That is self evident. What is also self evident is that you will never contribute anything worthwhile to this board nor any other (CU). It is fairly obvious you enjoy stopping by here in the morning and throwing a few more grenades in on these threads. Your short on class, and short on time...as usual.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, for you to say that I was never supportive is laughable. Everyone here knows I supported you quite vigorously for a long while. You just are too nauseating to stand next to, even in a virtual world. I still agree with you that card alteration is a big issue; that has nothing to do with supporting someone who offends at every opportunity. And now Barry's motives are challenged? Dude, what is wrong with you? Barry is a decent, honest man -- why on earth are you challenging his integrity? Your attacks on Leon are laughable as well. He is a fair guy. Why do you automatically assume that anyone who disagrees with you has some ulterior motive? Can't they just disagree with you because they disagree with you? And I begged out of the dinner for one simple reason that I had wanted to keep private so as not to embarrass you -- I just couldn't imagine wasting any time being in the same room with you. I am not saying this as an insult, just telling you the truth. I had wanted to come to that meeting but your presence there outweighed my desire to be there. It was a simple equation, really.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff,

Why constant personal attacks and misrepresenting what I say?

I never saw you as supportive--must have missed it.

Barry is a decent honest man--he just wants the grading companies to deal with hit--he said as much in the meeting if you would have bothered to come.

Leon I am sure is a nice guy too--if moderators are encouraged to pile on then he is well within his job description--I just thought moderators should be impartial.

Now that we established that we don't like each other and you have attempted to insult me every way you can it is nice to hear that you agree.

If you have any ideas that are constructive please share them or pass them along.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dave the Dunce,

Fine --you keep attacking me I will keep responding.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- I do agree with you wholeheartedly on one point:

My hobby relationships, and the friendships I built, are very important to me. Why shouldn't they be? Why would I want to be disliked by people? I try to find a balance between doing what's right, and at the same time not ruffling anyone's feathers. Can you blame me?

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Posted By: Dave

I told you last night that I was in no mood to play the lip flapping game with you...a comment that had nothing in it "attacking" you, a comment that is as nuetral as can be....and what do YOU do? YOU come back with your typical smartass unfunny dribble. YOUR the one that keeps this up. YOUR the one that acts like a child. YOUR the one that should find somewhere else to piss people off. Maybe a "Mommy's chat board". They tend to like to talk about thier toddlers on those sites. You'd fit right in.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

No I don't blame you at all--you are a nice guy. I was just saying you were not an agent for change and your view was we have to depend on the dealers to get things right.

Dave the Dunce with yet another creative attack-ha ha.

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Posted By: T206Collector

"I exposed T206 for the fool he is--time to move on."

The only person exposed for who he really is on this thread is you, Jim.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- I certainly feel that I would not be the appropriate choice to lead a group such as the one you tried to form. As a dealer, I believe there would even be a conflict of interest. However, I share your desire to see that hobby business is conducted ethically.

But I will also say I truly dislike all the rancor that evolves from your posts. I wish you could take a deep breath, and then take a step back. That everyone has become so agitated over this, now going into a third day, is an unfortunate developement.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Barry is such a calm voice of reason... truly. He managed to say all of that without calling anyone a fool. I hope the 3rd day is the last.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

I am only responding. You are a kind reasonable man. When these three or four attackers stop so will I.

Meanwhile, T206 after promising to stop attacking does so again.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, he promised to stop attacking you -- and then you attacked him! And wouldn't you know it, that's what started this again -- and you take the victim's role again! Are you that dense? You can't be.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Wrong again Jeff--I could care less about T206s attacks but I will respond when he makes them--just like I could care less about your last 7-8 personal attacks yet you continue to make them.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, you deeply care what everyone out here thinks of you. Which is why you constantly respond and claim that you are so unfairly persecuted. Self esteem issues are at the very heart of your anti-social behavior. Probably a very strict _____ as well. I hope you treat your _____ nicer than you were treated.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff,

Ninth personal attack in a row--you really have some serious issues.

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Posted By: Joann

I must have missed the great 2007 "T206Collector Fool Expose". I don't see anything that has exposed him as being a fool. Quite the contrary, in fact.

Joann

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Posted By: leon

If you don't quit saying the BS concerning me insulting you I will start. I have tried not to say how I really feel and my tongue is hurting. I just wrote a very nice paragraph but didn't post it. Please heed my advice....and/or show me where I have attacked you in the last month....I only use the phrase "armpit collector" and will continue too....

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Leon,

You can join the fun. When I have a few hours I will review past threads on this and point them out to you.

I thought the mods role was to be unbiased but if not my error.

Jim

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Posted By: Dave

The mod's role is to be unbiased. But at what point with your constant jabs at him is he to remain that way? Quit being the arrogant piece of doggy doo you are Cranbarry. I'm starting to wonder if your really a 12 year old kid that gets on here and just finds it amusing to screw with adults. Time for school yet?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dave the Dunce strikes again. If nothing else Dave I have a name for you every time you strike with a personal attack.

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Posted By: Dave

How in the hell can you honestly think your the one here without a problem? I've never seen a single person on this board get so many different malcontent conversations going with so many different people as you. It's also interesting to note that most the people you argue with don't ever seem to get into confrontations with anyone else...other than you. I think if I was posting on a board and had ten different people that were bitching back and forth with me, I'd just stop. Common sense would say anybody would. Cranbutt, you lack common sense. There is the understatement of the day.


Now for your "Dave the dunce strike again" comment.

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Posted By: T206Collector

"Meanwhile, T206 after promising to stop attacking does so again."

First of all, I said I would try to stop posting since I believed my points had been most persuasively made and you had absolutely lost all credibility. I certainly never said I would not respond to being called a "fool". As Jeff said, did you really think if you called me a "fool" that I would not respond?

I would now like to vote that Jim be removed from the island. Even if he is not entirely to blame for his caustic conversations, it is clear that, for better or worse, he is a disruptive force on this Board. I am constantly having to rewrite my posts to keep from sinking to grotesque name calling and screaming text. His posts always devolve into this and the problems are far outweighed by what has now become a very limited contribution. Indeed, I believe Jim has shared everything he has to share about vintage baseball cards and now having lost his crusade to clean up the hobby, will continue to fret and moan about that until he or someone else goes too far.