O/T 2026 HOF Contemporary Ballot

[scotgreb]

A few more Jeff Kents and Harold Baines will fit right in.

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[bnorth]

Originally Posted by bk400

I don't know if any of the 2017 Astros players are on track for the Hall, but that will be an interesting test case also. Maybe George Springer? Although he's probably on outside looking in, in terms of his performance. Beltran?

I wouldn't worry as there is no way the HOF would ever let any cheaters or PED users in. I am as sure of that as I am that there has never been a shill bid placed in a Probstein auction.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I wouldn't worry as there is no way the HOF would ever let any cheaters or PED users in. I am as sure of that as I am that there has never been a shill bid placed in a Probstein auction.

Why do you have to do Probstein like that? jk.

[BioCRN]

Jeff Kent's reputation for being a terrible 2nd baseman is overblown even if he shouldn't have been playing 2nd the last 2-3 years of his career.

He was rather safely average...adequate...which pairs extremely well with his bat output.

If you want to remove those 3 seasons and put him at 1st or DH on some team you still have the player with the most HR's a 2nd baseman in the history of the game that's not Robinson Cano (who's only getting into the HOF if it's signaled being a roider no longer matters).

[G1911]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Jeff Kent
WAR 55.4 HR 377

Barry Bonds
WAR 162.8 HR 762

If we halve Bonds WAR and HR because we assume he broke the rules:
WAR 81.4 HR 381

Did Kent ever lead the league in anything at all?

I never cared for Bonds but he should be in. Clemens too.

Maybe add batboys and peanut hawkers to the next ballot.

I highly doubt a single voter on any committee or on the larger writers ballots has ever thought Kent was better than Bonds. Bonds is not out for performance reasons, and so comparisons like this are completely missing what it is about.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bk400

I don't know if any of the 2017 Astros players are on track for the Hall, but that will be an interesting test case also. Maybe George Springer? Although he's probably on outside looking in, in terms of his performance. Beltran?

Beltran apparently is a near lock.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I wouldn't worry as there is no way the HOF would ever let any cheaters or PED users in. I am as sure of that as I am that there has never been a shill bid placed in a Probstein auction.

LOL . probstien is (STILL) dead to me.


Frankly, I was surprised that Murphy and Mattingly did not get in...and I was naive enough to think that, with the lifetime ban on Rose, etc. being 'lifted' bonds and clemens might get in. Then I heard the announcement and when 'integrity and sportsmanship' were mentioned, I knew they would still be out. And I'm fine with putting those guys in AFTER they pass, but let Shoeless Joe in first.

I always compare Bonds to Griffey and know that one did it right and one did not. One stood on the shoulders of great men before him and assumed he was entitled to all- the other just wore his cap backwards on occation.

[Svabinsky78]

When discussing Kent's HOF case, everyone focused on his HRs...I wanted to see how he stacked up in the other offensive categories to the 2nd basemen greats...and I think he stacks up pretty well.....

AB H HR R RBI Triples Doubles SLG
Kent
8498 2461 377 1320 1518 47 560 .500

Eddie Collins
9949 3315 47 1821 1299 187 438 .429

Frankie Frisch (about 600 more at bats)
9112 2880 105 1532 1244 138 466 .432

Gehringer
8860 2839 184 1775 1427 146 574 .480

Grich
6890 1833 224 1033 864 47 320 .424

Hornsby
8173 2930 301 1579 1584 169 541 .577

Lajoie
9590 3243 82 1504 1599 162 657 .466

Joe Morgan
9277 2517 268 1650 1133 96 449 .427

Sandberg
8385 2386 282 1318 1061 76 403 .452

Whitaker
8570 2369 244 1386 1084 65 420 .426

I did not realize how fewer at bats Grich had. It somewhat puts into perspective his WAR. He has almost 2000 hits, 224 HRs, 864 RBIs, 320 doubles in significantly less plate appearances than most of the guys on this list.

[Tabe]

An MVP who hit 350 homers at 2B? Kent should've gone in right after he retired.

[todeen]

I'm happy for Kent. How do you keep the position HR leader out of the HOF when supposedly he wasn't tainted by roids?

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[oldjudge]

Personally, I think it is wrong to let Kent in and leave Mattingly out. Mattingly played three less years than Kent but he was on one more all star team.He was not only an MVP but in the top 5 in MVP voting two other times.He was a lifetime .307 hitter and also an eight time gold glove winner. He still holds the record for consecutive games with a HR and grand slam HRs in a season. If his back had not started hindering him halfway through his career he would have been an easy first ballot enshrinee.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Personally, I think it is wrong to let Kent in and leave Mattingly out. Mattingly played three less years than Kent but he was on one more all star team.He was not only an MVP but in the top 5 in MVP voting two other times.He was a lifetime .307 hitter and also an eight time gold glove winner. He still holds the record for consecutive games with a HR and grand slam HRs in a season. If his back had not started hindering him halfway through his career he would have been an easy first ballot enshrinee.

Or Dale Murphy, with back to back MVPs in the early 1980s. Trying to figure out how that's not worth more than the guy who benefitted greatly from hitting behind a roided up Bonds.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by bk400

I think the HOF is making it clear that if you're a cheater, you're not getting in.

Yeah, I'm glad to see that the HOF is continuing to ensure there are NO cheaters in the HOF

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by scotgreb

A few more Jeff Kents and Harold Baines will fit right in.

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Kent is a far superior player to Baines. Baines was a barely above average major league player who lasted forever. I'm not saying Kent deserves to be in, but Baines is still, by far, the low water mark for recent inductees, and among the worst of all time with guys like Ray Schalk, Jesse Haines and Rick Ferrell.

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Good for Kent. I am surprised Mattingly and Murphy came up so short. I wonder if they had real hopes. Clemens and Bonds could not have.

Same thoughts here - also surprised Delgado got more votes than Murph/Mattingly.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Robextend

Same thoughts here - also surprised Delgado got more votes than Murph/Mattingly.

I feel like Delgado got reward votes for being considered clean in the dirtiest era. Mattingly and Murphy were clean but then it wasn't nearly as prevalent not to be in their time. Just a theory though.

[tod41]

Originally Posted by bk400

Or Dale Murphy, with back to back MVPs in the early 1980s. Trying to figure out how that's not worth more than the guy who benefitted greatly from hitting behind a roided up Bonds.

Murphy could have just as easily not won either MVP. They weren't exactly blow away MVPs. In fact, in 1982 -Gary Carter placed 12th in MVP and probably should have won. So MVP awards not end all.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Personally, I think it is wrong to let Kent in and leave Mattingly out. Mattingly played three less years than Kent but he was on one more all star team.He was not only an MVP but in the top 5 in MVP voting two other times.He was a lifetime .307 hitter and also an eight time gold glove winner. He still holds the record for consecutive games with a HR and grand slam HRs in a season. If his back had not started hindering him halfway through his career he would have been an easy first ballot enshrinee.

Your last sentence explains why Mattingly hasn't been inducted so far. His back injury made his career too short even with his incredible peak.

[Svabinsky78]

Whether it is fair or not, players get compared positionally. Short Stops to Short Stops, Catchers to Catchers, 1st basemen to 1st basemen. And at least offensively, Kent stacks up just fine with some of the greatest 2nd basemen of all time, and not just in the HR dept.

Re: Ray Schalk, his offensive stats may be thin, but he was considered the greatest defensive catcher of his time. He was, basically, the Yadi Molina of the teens and early 20s.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Personally, I think it is wrong to let Kent in and leave Mattingly out. Mattingly played three less years than Kent but he was on one more all star team.He was not only an MVP but in the top 5 in MVP voting two other times.He was a lifetime .307 hitter and also an eight time gold glove winner. He still holds the record for consecutive games with a HR and grand slam HRs in a season. If his back had not started hindering him halfway through his career he would have been an easy first ballot enshrinee.

Agree! Just imagine what Don Mattingly would have accomplished if not for his herniated disk issues. He played through the back pain, until it was just too much. Don Mattingly should be in the HOF!

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by todeen

I'm happy for Kent. How do you keep the position HR leader out of the HOF when supposedly he wasn't tainted by roids?

Kent failed zero drug tests?

How many did Bonds and Clemens fail?

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by SyrNy1960

Yeah, I'm glad to see that the HOF is continuing to ensure there are NO cheaters in the HOF

I'm definitely on board with that!

Even though, proving such is sketchy at best when advanced masking is available.

However, your head should not grow in your late 30s.


.

[Trublubrucru]

The so called "list" of steroid use does not have Kent, but it does have Delgado.
The HOFer's on the list are David Ortiz, Pedro Martinez, Ivan Rodriguez, Roberto Alomar, Adrian Beltre, and Todd Helton

[Svabinsky78]

I think that was a pretty resounding NO for Bonds and Clemens. They will not appear on the next contemporary era ballot (since they can't) but, I suspect, they will appear on the one after that, and will fare the same way (less than 5 votes), and that way the doors to the hallowed HOF will be shut to them for good, well, at least until there is a new rule change My only issue is that you have gents in the hall who are heavily suspected of having used, and then there is Ortiz who was reportedly one of the players who produced a positive sample during confidential testing. The counter argument, two wrongs don't make a right. This does not bode well for any of the other actual and suspected PEDers.

As for Mattingly, I would put him in on his peak + his defensive accolades. A lot of people do poo poo the GGs for a 1st basemen, so the 9 GGs may not have as much of a shine for some folks to offset his thinner offensive stats relative to other HOF 1st basemen.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Svabinsky78

I think that was a pretty resounding NO for Bonds and Clemens. They will not appear on the next contemporary era ballot (since they can't) but, I suspect, they will appear on the one after that, and will fare the same way (less than 5 votes), and that way the doors to the hallowed HOF will be shut to them for good, well, at least until there is a new rule change My only issue is that you have gents in the hall who are heavily suspected of having used, and then there is Ortiz who was reportedly one of the players who produced a positive sample during confidential testing. The counter argument, two wrongs don't make a right. This does not bode well for any of the other actual and suspected PEDers.

As for Mattingly, I would put him in on his peak + his defensive accolades. A lot of people do poo poo the GGs for a 1st basemen, so the 9 GGs may not have as much of a shine for some folks to offset his thinner offensive stats relative to other HOF 1st basemen.

I wonder if the other issue for Mattingly is that if they let him in, they'd have to let Keith Hernandez in. And they don't want Keith Hernandez in because of the cocaine thing.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by bk400

I wonder if the other issue for Mattingly is that if they let him in, they'd have to let Keith Hernandez in. And they don't want Keith Hernandez in because of the cocaine thing.

They let Fergie Jenkins in a long time ago.

Cocaine IS a hell'uva drug, but I don't think voters care about that much anymore in comparison to other things.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by bk400

And they don't want Keith Hernandez in because of the cocaine thing.

Did cocaine help him hit more home runs and make him a better fielder?

[bk400]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

They let Fergie Jenkins in a long time ago.

Cocaine IS a hell'uva drug, but I don't think voters care about that much anymore in comparison to other things.

If that's the case, then Keith Hernandez should be back on the ballot. He's the best defensive first baseman of all time (11x GG), has an MVP award, two WS rings, and a career WAR of 60.3, which is smack in the middle of the HOF first basemen, and better than George Sisler.

Why are we even talking about Mattingly when Keith is on the outside looking in?

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by bk400

keith hernandez should be back on the ballot. He's the best defensive first baseman of all time (11x gg), has an mvp award, two ws rings, and a career war of 60.3, which is smack in the middle of the hof first basemen, and better than george sisler.

+ 100

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by SyrNy1960

Did cocaine help him hit more home runs and make him a better fielder?

With out question a HUGE yes. If you say or think no you have never done good cocaine. Just as Tim "The Rock" Raines if you want a baseball player to tell you how much it helps.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by bk400

If that's the case, then Keith Hernandez should be back on the ballot. He's the best defensive first baseman of all time (11x GG), has an MVP award, two WS rings, and a career WAR of 60.3, which is smack in the middle of the HOF first basemen, and better than George Sisler.

Why are we even talking about Mattingly when Keith is on the outside looking in?

I don't have a problem with Keith being considered, and he might well be in the future. I'm a Yankee fan and I don't have a problem with Keith going in over Mattingly either.

Just don't think the cocaine has much to do with it anymore.

I think it has more to do with his non-power stats from the 1st Base position, and generally consistent and reliable, but not overwhelming other offensive stats that puts him in the realm of John Olerud, Mark Grace and Wally Joyner. Mattingly's peak was higher, but Hernandez was consistent for much longer. Not as eye-catching.

Even his MVP, he shared with "Pops", which admittedly is kind of head-scratching in hindsight.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by bnorth

With out question a HUGE yes. If you say or think no you have never done good cocaine. Just as Tim "The Rock" Raines if you want a baseball player to tell you how much it helps.

Wasn’t aware. Thanks!

[packs]

I wonder if it would have made any difference for Mattingly if Toronto had won the Series and he got his ring.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by packs

I wonder if it would have made any difference for Mattingly if Toronto had won the Series and he got his ring.

As a coach? No.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by SyrNy1960

Wasn’t aware. Thanks!

Cocaine/greenies back then was like all the ADHD meds players are getting TUEs for now. I would guess easily 90% of all TUEs in baseball are really just being used as PEDs.

[Svabinsky78]

I believe that Hernandez will get in eventually.

I am more curious about the non-PED character clause guys like Schilling and Omar Vizquel. Both are HOF caliber players but both have been kept out because of character issues. With Schilling, it is his views on certain things/overall cantankerous persona, and with Vizquel, the alleged domestic abuse and the sexual harassment allegations by a former bat boy (both particularly bad).

I would think, given the nature of the allegations, Vizquel is probably never getting in.

Schilling may, eventually, because given a pass.

[packs]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

As a coach? No.

It would have been a big deal and reported on everywhere in NY if the Jays won and he got his ring. I was thinking that would have bought some good will heading into the vote and would have been the last thing you heard about him heading into the vote. Kind of like, Donnie got his ring this year, he's on top of the world, let's put him in the HOF now.

[tod41]

Originally Posted by bk400

If that's the case, then Keith Hernandez should be back on the ballot. He's the best defensive first baseman of all time (11x GG), has an MVP award, two WS rings, and a career WAR of 60.3, which is smack in the middle of the HOF first basemen, and better than George Sisler.

Why are we even talking about Mattingly when Keith is on the outside looking in?

Has a better Jaws and War than Mattingly and a slightly higher Career OPS Plus. I like Mattingly but what would his power numbers be in NL with on DH and n Busch and Shea as home field? Fielding? Mattingly would have never had won a Gold Glove if he was in the same league as Hernandez. Career Defensive Runs saved Mattingly - 31. Hernandez? 211. The Cocaine issue should be behind him now that Raines, Molitor and Parker are in.

[packs]

I think it's a mistake to compare Mattingly and Hernandez that way. For me, it's a lot simpler.

For a time, Mattingly was the best player in the league. Keith Hernandez was never the best player in the league.

Edge to Mattingly.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Trublubrucru

The so called "list" of steroid use does not have Kent, but it does have Delgado.
The HOFer's on the list are David Ortiz, Pedro Martinez, Ivan Rodriguez, Roberto Alomar, Adrian Beltre, and Todd Helton

Of the players you listed, I'm only familiar with Ortiz and Rodriguez being linked to PEDs. Can you provide links to information about the others? Also, any reason you left Piazza off your list?

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by packs

It would have been a big deal and reported on everywhere in NY if the Jays won and he got his ring. I was thinking that would have bought some good will heading into the vote and would have been the last thing you heard about him heading into the vote. Kind of like, Donnie got his ring this year, he's on top of the world, let's put him in the HOF now.

Mattingly only got 6 votes. I don't think it's likely he would have had another 6 votes because the Blue Jays won a World Series with him as a coach.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by tod41

Has a better Jaws and War than Mattingly and a slightly higher Career OPS Plus. I like Mattingly but what would his power numbers be in NL with on DH and n Busch and Shea as home field? Fielding? Mattingly would have never had won a Gold Glove if he was in the same league as Hernandez. Career Defensive Runs saved Mattingly - 31. Hernandez? 211. The Cocaine issue should be behind him now that Raines, Molitor and Parker are in.

What he said

[bk400]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Also, any reason you left Piazza off your list?

To quote the guy who spotted me at the gym when I was in high school, "Italians don't need steroids."

[Trublubrucru]

Piazza wasn't on the list, IF he was using, he could of been cycling off it at the time with no positive results. The 'confidential' test was given to players 2007 or before. I saw the leaked list of 103 names in June 2009 on Game Used Forum and jotted them down. I've felt that this was MLB's "mulligan to everyone" to let them know that they KNOW, and if it happens again, penalties will be severe. Some listened, some didn't. None of this is confirmed, nor will it ever be

[tod41]

Originally Posted by bk400

To quote the guy who spotted me at the gym when I was in high school, "Italians don't need steroids."

Must be his Croatian side then.

[tod41]

Originally Posted by Trublubrucru

Piazza wasn't on the list, IF he was using, he could of been cycling off it at the time with no positive results. The 'confidential' test was given to players 2007 or before. I saw the leaked list of 103 names in June 2009 on Game Used Forum and jotted them down. I've felt that this was MLB's "mulligan to everyone" to let them know that they KNOW, and if it happens again, penalties will be severe. Some listened, some didn't. None of this is confirmed, nor will it ever be

Piazza grew up wealthy and likely had more secure sources for his Peds as well as better advice as to how to mask them from testing.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by tod41

Piazza grew up wealthy and likely had more secure sources for his Peds as well as better advice as to how to mask them from testing.

Piazza came from the Gary Carter coaching tree, so to speak, so I say he's clean. Let's Go Mets!!!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by packs

It would have been a big deal and reported on everywhere in NY if the Jays won and he got his ring. I was thinking that would have bought some good will heading into the vote and would have been the last thing you heard about him heading into the vote. Kind of like, Donnie got his ring this year, he's on top of the world, let's put him in the HOF now.

Fans aren't voting

[packs]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Fans aren't voting

I'm aware but there is such a thing as momentum.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I disagree, I don't think his vote total would've changed by even one vote if Toronto wins the WS