Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

The one over on the postwar side that graded an 8 but had a corner that layered and folded over, supposedly during slabbing. Which PSA folded back and reslabbed, still as an 8. That would be a good start.

In that case, PSA was both the doctor and slabber.


And the response was pretty much crickets.

You mean the conservator.

[steve B]

I don't know the Taylor postcards well, but unless they're typically cut with one end much narrower than the other that shouldn't be a 7 or any other numerical grade.

But PSA is the best because they sell for more!

Originally Posted by calvindog

Exhibits A-C as to why I'm doing business with PSA:







I paid about 11K total for these three cards. Grading fees were less than $100. What are they worth now?

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by AustinMike

What evidence do you have that it is the policy of PSA to "KNOWINGLY" assign a number grade to "doctored" cards? (It's okay to grade "doctored" cards as long as you "grade" them as altered.)

If you take PSA at their word, their founder Mr. Hall was not competent enough to "KNOWINGLY" call the Gretzky Wagner altered. Because he didn't know. Really, I'm sure he didn't...

[Goudey77]

You know in theory all cards that are handled will intercept the oils and residue that comes with human hand contact. Same goes for coins. So all cards have foreign residue and oil or print marks from these transactions. Just saying if you want to get really technical this topic will never end.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Email blast from PWCC. Touting the altered Mantle. Funny, not a word about conservation. I guess the tenets will only apply prospectively?

Baseball 1949-1953 Highlights
Closing Today: 6-9pm PST
__________________________________________________ _




A glowing and altogether stunning '52 Topps Mickey Mantle for the grade. We love this card as it lights up the room, boasting unquestionably NM-MT surfaces with pristine clarity, near flawless print and vivid color. By far the cleanest and brightest copy we've brokered in years (including many which grade higher than the offered PSA 4.5). Perhaps what's most impressive about this shockingly beautiful card is the centering. Virtually 50-50 from every angle; an extremely rare quality for the condition sensitive kick-start to the ultra difficult high-number series. Boasts clean white borders with crisp edges and card stock void of any wrinkles. Extremely modest corner wear to the right two are all that accounts for the harsh assessment.

This card would not be questioned for a second in a PSA 5 or even 5.5 holder. The '52 Topps Mantle is the most important post-war trading card in existence and seldom seen on the market with such exceptional overall eye appeal. Most educated investors appreciate that a card's eye appeal can fluctuate considerably within a single grade, and we are excited to label this example as being in the upper echelon of our quality spectrum. Comes with our highest recommendation.

Closes Today @ 8:09pm PST

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Email blast from PWCC. Touting the altered Mantle. Funny, not a word about conservation. I guess the tenets will only apply prospectively?

Baseball 1949-1953 Highlights
Closing Today: 6-9pm PST
__________________________________________________ _




A glowing and altogether stunning '52 Topps Mickey Mantle for the grade. We love this card as it lights up the room, boasting unquestionably NM-MT surfaces with pristine clarity, near flawless print and vivid color. By far the cleanest and brightest copy we've brokered in years (including many which grade higher than the offered PSA 4.5). Perhaps what's most impressive about this shockingly beautiful card is the centering. Virtually 50-50 from every angle; an extremely rare quality for the condition sensitive kick-start to the ultra difficult high-number series. Boasts clean white borders with crisp edges and card stock void of any wrinkles. Extremely modest corner wear to the right two are all that accounts for the harsh assessment.

This card would not be questioned for a second in a PSA 5 or even 5.5 holder. The '52 Topps Mantle is the most important post-war trading card in existence and seldom seen on the market with such exceptional overall eye appeal. Most educated investors appreciate that a card's eye appeal can fluctuate considerably within a single grade, and we are excited to label this example as being in the upper echelon of our quality spectrum. Comes with our highest recommendation.

Closes Today @ 8:09pm PST

just got that...I unsubscribed.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Please name one seller who does disclose? How can you know who doesn't so as to avoid them?

This thread has gone off the rails in other ways already, and while I typically don't like tangents, I'll indulge on this because it offers an opportunity to highlight a good seller (and add a photo of a card). I've bought from a number of people on this board and had great experiences so far, including the card below, purchased from mybuddyinc. He noted that it had to be trimmed (it is still raw in my collection, I may get it slabbed at some point).
As for those who don't disclose, I'm sure you can peruse some of the threads offering tales of purchases gone wrong, bad experiences and find out some of the sellers out there to avoid.

[drcy]

As the resident museum person here, who is professionally certified in museum sciences, I can say that the original OP post is very problematic-- though I won't take the time to say why.

I will, however, say that conservation and restoration are kinds of alteration. That's not a comment on if they good or bad, ethical or unethical, just that they are alteration. Cataloging them as not comes across to me as trickery.

Also, if there is nothing errant or wrong with conserving or restoring a card, and it shouldn't effect the market value, then you should not have an issue with disclosing that it's been conserved. If one says there's nothing material about, say, conservation and it shouldn't/won't effect market value, but bends over backwards not to disclose it, that speaks for itself that the person doesn't believe what he is saying. I do not know, and am not claiming to know the purpose. However, If this all a method to hide from bidders and buyers the presence of conservation or restoration or other alterations, it's wrong, and, while I'm not a lawyer and will dutifully defer to the lawyers here, might be illegal.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

This thread has gone off the rails in other ways already, and while I typically don't like tangents, I'll indulge on this because it offers an opportunity to highlight a good seller (and add a photo of a card). I've bought from a number of people on this board and had great experiences so far, including the card below, purchased from mybuddyinc. He noted that it had to be trimmed (it is still raw in my collection, I may get it slabbed at some point).
As for those who don't disclose, I'm sure you can peruse some of the threads offering tales of purchases gone wrong, bad experiences and find out some of the sellers out there to avoid.

I have a pretty good idea who to avoid at this point, and always willing to learn more, but my point is your stated standard -- I won't buy from anyone who doesn't disclose -- is not practical because you have no way of knowing who has something to disclose but isn't. And if you're only going to buy from people who have affirmatively disclosed something, that's an awful small universe.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have a pretty good idea who to avoid at this point, and always willing to learn more, but my point is your stated standard -- I won't buy from anyone who doesn't disclose -- is not practical because you have no way of knowing who has something to disclose but isn't. And if you're only going to buy from people who have affirmatively disclosed something, that's an awful small universe.

At the same time, one should be willing to give sellers the benefit of the doubt and a chance to do their job honorably. There are people I won't buy from for a number of reasons, some from my experiences with them (non-disclosure or otherwise) and others from the experiences I've read about from others who have posted here.
If PWCC's tenets do not address disclosure of alterations, conservation or whatnot, or if the tenets note that disclosure will not be performed on some at their discretion, that makes things pretty easy as far as I'm concerned.
And I'm fine with an awful small universe, if that what it ends up being. I'm not going to be a slave to buying cards regardless of their sources.

[jchcollins]

I read most posts, skimmed some, and boy howdy was this was an exhausting thread. Following the OP, we went sarcastic-pissed, then off on extreme legal tangents, and then (I think) actually got back around to talking about grading and alterations.

For what it's worth I will attempt to give my thoughts sans sarcasm, since I don't really have any personal experiences which sting. I've bought from PWCC before, but don't have any particular grudge against them for selling altered cards or dealing with shady consignors or anything like that.

For what it's worth I do think the "Conservation" (tongue-in-cheek) argument is interesting, but as many others have already pointed out - the hobby at large more or less set the bar there years ago, regardless of what PWCC does or does not decide to do for their limited marketplace.

Me personally, I've always been intrigued by the prejudice which seems to be accorded to cards assumed to be altered (trimming, obvious recoloration, etc.) vs. "honest wear" because - yes for some, at least a good deal of the time you can kind of tell - but if you weren't there to personally see how each card got it's wear, how do you really know definitively? You don't. That being said, cards upon which no dishonest work can be physically detected don't bother me. I think it should be left to TPG's and who you personally do or do not trust as to whether or not you believe their opinion on the state of alteration on the card or lack thereof is valid. All of the big TPG's make mistakes. Some think that at least one company among them is knowingly dishonest. All of it comes back around to are YOU happy with the particular example of the particular card, or does it mean more to you what PSA, SGC, BVG, (and then perhaps further qualifed by PWCC) have said or insinuated about the card or not? Because as we all know, what they grade or say is apt to be wildly different even if you submit the same card to each of them.

I've always maintained that it's absurd to think that some "professional" graders can have a valid opinion over and above some veteran hobbyists who have 30-50 or more years in looking at and evaluating vintage cards. At the end of the day what you can get comfortable with is all that matters. I don't particularly care one way or the other about graded cards - I think on the whole it is helpful to buy them that way online so as not to risk getting a creased card that is described as "Excellent" and things like that, but at the end of the day - ALL of this, even down to what PWCC wants to further cloud judgment with, purple stickers and altered vs. conserved, etc. etc. is really just opinion. There never will be a silver bullet for it, unless someone invents a time machine and we can go back and observe the whole, complete and unedited timeline provenance for every single existing baseball card in every collection today. Which of course ain't happening. I think what PWCC is propsing is pretty useless based on the fact that when it comes down to it - there is no way to be 100% certain about anything. Will it soothe collectors / investors already basically willing to look the other way into an easier false sense of security? Sure, and that's unfortunate for those of us who do care. But all of us here today reading this like / enjoy collecting vintage cards at least enough to be ~5% or more unsure about their true state of preservation. If we are being honest, how much leeway is really there - is it that - or more? Because as with just about everything, you can never really know 100% for sure. Taking the technical approach, as someone pointed out earlier - at some point gets so detailed as to be absurd and not consistent with the reasons people collect in the first place. I will be interested to see how much traction tactics like that can get...

[jchcollins]

Caveat to my post above - if you are talking about the Vintage Breaks guys or whatever and you have a pack that is graded and most people agree is authentic unopened - THEN that card going directly to PSA at a show is likely to have a much clearer provenance trail, isn't it? But is it FOR SURE? LOL. See what I've done here? I've created my own tangent.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Please name one seller who does disclose?

Raises hand.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by calvindog

What if it's the jawbone's job to smite the Philistines? Does that make Brent guilty?

I'll wait.

I gave up smoting years ago.

"Anyone really care what some freaking hayseed in Oregon thinks about cards?"

Ted, best line of the year.

A Lord on high at one of the TPGs admitted to me years ago that they are all aware that cards are being altered but that they cannot detect a good job of removing a foreign substance from a card. Light erasures, soakings, etc., it has been going on ever since TPGs started minting money for their customers based on the perceived grade of the card and it is not going to stop.

No one is going to be swayed by anything said here. The fans of PWCC and those who don't care what happened to get a card into a TPG holder have their beliefs and nothing rational will shake them.

DRCY writes: "If this all a method to hide from bidders and buyers the presence of conservation or restoration or other alterations, it's wrong"

I view it as more of an effort to shift concern away from criticism of the piss-poor job the TPGs have done on delivering on their promises of no alterations getting through their sieves. PWCC's entire business rests on two concepts: the TPG-encapsulated cards are what they are and as long as they have the right capsules around them the cards themselves are basically interchangeable commodities. Well, we know that the TPGs are missing all sorts of stuff: fake signatures, trimmed cards, cleaned cards, etc. So what can you do in the face of the evidence? Change the discussion or change the parameters of what you define as a wrongful alteration. The discussion itself ain't gonna change, so the OP is just a way of trying to sell us on the idea that even if the PSA or BGS slab has a card that has had one of these procedures, like a bath and cleaning, that's fine because it merely brought the card back towards its original state and the TPG then blessed it. So what if it went from a 4 to a 7 and the person who rode that train will make a fortune?

It's bulls**t of the highest order tossed out there to keep the gravy train rolling.

[Bigdaddy]

So should I feel bad about wiping wax stains off of my 1970s Topps cards with my shirt-tail?

And should I disclose the deed? It may not warrant a numerical bump by a TPG, but it could eliminate the dreaded (ST) qualifier.

BTW, thank you BLong for putting some of the pieces together and shedding more light on all of this. Much like the college admissions scandal, I'm a bit disheartened, but not surprised.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

So should I feel bad about wiping wax stains off of my 1970s Topps cards with my shirt-tail?

And should I disclose the deed? It may not warrant a numerical bump by a TPG, but it could eliminate the dreaded (ST) qualifier.

BTW, thank you BLong for putting some of the pieces together and shedding more light on all of this. Much like the college admissions scandal, I'm a bit disheartened, but not surprised.

Shirt-tail wax removal isn’t woke. I’ve always thought panty-hose wax removal was the preferred technique. Then again I fully realize that everyone with shirt tails does not wear panty-hose. To make matters worse the Untuckit shirts eliminate the shirt tail alternative. The future should see a bump in panty-hose sales for this reason.

[ullmandds]

and in recent news:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BxQhjthHUpr/

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

and in recent news:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BxQhjthHUpr/

Funny how they get the same reaction everywhere.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Funny how they get the same reaction everywhere.

right! apparently noone cares!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Conserve - protect (something, especially an environmentally or culturally important place or thing) from harm or destruction.

Restore - repair or renovate (a building, work of art, vehicle, etc.) so as to return it to its original condition.

Alter - change or cause to change in character or composition, typically in a comparatively small but significant way.

Oddly after a lot of digging I found there already ARE definitions for these words. It took seconds of mind-bending labor, but I found them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

right! apparently noone cares!

No, they got ripped, look at the comments on the link you posted.

[ullmandds]

well that's good...but doesn't seem to be affecting bidding on their auctions!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

well that's good...but doesn't seem to be affecting bidding on their auctions!

Of course not. The Mantle doubtless will go for a world record.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course not. The Mantle doubtless will go for a world record.

CLCT broke out to a new 52 week too.

https://www.stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=clct


This isn't going to slow either down anytime soon.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

CLCT broke out to a new 52 week too.

https://www.stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=clct


This isn't going to slow either down anytime soon.

I just had to laugh at the guys on Blowout talking about shorting it, I mean come on how naïve.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I just had to laugh at the guys on Blowout talking about shorting it, I mean come on how naïve.

They better be careful. This is a low float stock that has no liquidity.

If someone smells blood they could destroy some shorts in this stock.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

They better be careful. This is a low float stock that has no liquidity.

If someone smells blood they could destroy some shorts in this stock.

More likely just a few giddy millenials drunk on their own perception of their influence, who are just yapping.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

More likely just a few giddy millenials drunk on their own perception of their influence.

Haha

Yep.

Virtue signaling shorting.

The make believe kind.

[Peter_Spaeth]

58K for the Mantle asset.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

58K for the Mantle asset.

Someone hoping PSA buys it back? Or will it be relisted

[111gecko]

Or is it even paid for as a “true” sale..?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Someone hoping PSA buys it back? Or will it be relisted

Who cares? Brent put a sticker on it. The card is “exceptional” for its grade. Of course it had to be altered to get there but who cares considering how hard he’s working to improve the hobby.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Who cares? Brent put a sticker on it. The card is “exceptional” for its grade. Of course it had to be altered to get there but who cares considering how hard he’s working to improve the hobby.

"(With more alterations) it could be a 5 or 5.5"


Hey Jeff, how many times have you spoken with Peter Nash? Just curious, I'm keeping tabs on many times people talk to each other for a list character witnesses during the trial.

This will be bigger than "steroids in baseball" government investigation. The smokescreen while the housing market (fraud) was taking place.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Who cares? Brent put a sticker on it. The card is “exceptional” for its grade. Of course it had to be altered to get there but who cares considering how hard he’s working to improve the hobby.

Sales tax on that asset could add quite a bit to the price. Oh wait...

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sales tax on that asset could add quite a bit to the price. Oh wait...

Evading taxes — more good for the hobby. Won’t raise a red flag at all and surely there will be no audits.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

This is a low float stock that has no liquidity.

If someone smells blood they could destroy some shorts in this stock.

I read and write pretty good but I don’t understand either of these sentences. Something to do with urine and pants?

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I read and write pretty good but I don’t understand either of these sentences. Something to do with urine and pants?

Just look up the differential diagnosis of hematuria associated with renal failure, Adam.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I read and write pretty good but I don’t understand either of these sentences. Something to do with urine and pants?

CLCT is a very illiquid stock. It only trades on average just over 55,000 shares a day. The current short position is only 38,570 shares as of the last update so roughly two thirds of the daily average volume. That said there are days where this stock has only traded 13,000 shares.

This is a very small short position but if someone tried to put on a much larger short position and then a fund decided to put heavy buying pressure on the stock they could make it sky rocket and create a very serious short squeeze.

If you look at the stock right now the bid and ask are only showing 200 shares on each so the largest market order you can use and get the inside bid or ask is 200 shares. Nothing. To put that in perspective if you wanted to buy GE you could use a market order and get 45,000 shares.

Low float stocks that are heavily shorted are prime targets to try and manipulate higher with constant buying pressure. When a stock is sold short it represents pent up demand because the only way to exit the position is through a buy order. If someone is pressing it higher the shorts begin to lose and at some point just like in MMA they tap out and have no choice but to buy further exacerbating the scenario. Short squeezes can be violent.

Moral of the story a terrible stock to short because you can't get in or out easily. Even if one doesn't like a company they need to look at the short interest and trading volume to get a feel if it is a good short candidate and CLCT isn't.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You would have better insight than I, but it doesn't seem like a great stock to go long either.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You would have better insight than I, but it doesn't seem like a great stock to go long either.

Hard to say. Roughly two thirds of the company is their coin division and that has been soft. If you read the recent report it seems to be picking up some. Their card and autograph division is what is carrying the company.

It looks to me like it is running back up to the the top of the gap of $21.63 from February 7th last year. If it gets above that it could have legs.

The stock got hammered in the fourth quarter last year on general market weakness and heavy tax loss selling but I am not a fan personally of buying a stock that has doubled in five months.

Regardless this issue that has created many to be upset isn't going to change the direction of PSA.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Hard to say. Roughly two thirds of the company is their coin division and that has been soft. If you read the recent report it seems to be picking up some. Their card and autograph division is what is carrying the company.

It looks to me like it is running back up to the the top of the gap of $21.63 from February 7th last year. If it gets above that it could have legs.

The stock got hammered in the fourth quarter last year on general market weakness and heavy tax loss selling but I am not a fan personally of buying a stock that has doubled in five months.

Regardless this issue that has created many to be upset isn't going to change the direction of PSA.

I guess people keep grading the new bullion coins although I can't imagine why as even the MS70s don't seem to bring much of a premium, unlike PSA 10s of current cards.

[TMKenKen]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

This thread has gone off the rails in other ways already, and while I typically don't like tangents, I'll indulge on this because it offers an opportunity to highlight a good seller (and add a photo of a card). I've bought from a number of people on this board and had great experiences so far, including the card below, purchased from mybuddyinc. He noted that it had to be trimmed (it is still raw in my collection, I may get it slabbed at some point).
As for those who don't disclose, I'm sure you can peruse some of the threads offering tales of purchases gone wrong, bad experiences and find out some of the sellers out there to avoid.

I joined this site about 7 years or so ago. Scarcely comment, but always follow the forum. I have made a few purchases from other here, including Leon from whom I bought a few items shortly after joining. Unsolicited he disclosed the condition about each item, including that the item had been altered. That let me know that I could trust those here. This debate and the emphasis on disclosure lets me continue to believe that this is the right place to be. Thanks to all for that!

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I guess people keep grading the new bullion coins although I can't imagine why as even the MS70s don't seem to bring much of a premium, unlike PSA 10s of current cards.

From their press release.


Part of the growth in PCGS Bulk was aided by a successful Apollo 11 coin-grading program that generated thousands of these popular commemorative coins for submission. The creative packaging designed by the PCGS team helped raise our Q3 Bulk ASP over last year's ASP.



"The PSA and PSA/DNA business set another all-time revenue quarterly record for the division and eclipsed last year's Q3 revenue by roughly $1.3 million, a 24% increase year-over-year. Based on the first three quarters of fiscal 2019, this part of our company is expected to close out its ninth consecutive year of top and bottom line growth. The PSA backlog remains at record levels heading into Q4. The Company is currently revamping our existing space to expand operational capacity, so we can ultimately improve the extended turnaround times facing our customers."

[Exhibitman]

Suuuuure they are. Wanna buy a bridge in Brooklyn?

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=684

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=684

WOW! Thank god for PWWC and PSA for that matter for helping to bring such great cards to market!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

WOW! Thank god for PWWC and PSA for that matter for helping to bring such great cards to market!

And doing good things for the hobby?

[Peter_Spaeth]

On a roll on BO.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=691

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And doing good things for the hobby?

Their charm offensive didn’t last very long did it? Back to the drawing board!

[benjulmag]

Ideal World

1. There is full disclosure of what was done to the card, without any pretense to give such "work" a definition.

2. The sole purpose of a slab is to opine that the card is authentic and to describe what was done to the card without concluding whether such work fits into the category of conservation or alteration, and that all numerical grades will be eliminated.

Real World

1. People buy the slab, and once it is slabbed, what was done to the card becomes irrelevant.

2. IMO all T206 10's have been trimmed.

3. IMO the overwhelming majority of T206 8's and 9's have been worked on.

4. The cover card of the hobby has been trimmed and would grade an "A" if taken out of the slab and resubmitted.

5. To my knowledge, the founder of PSA has not recanted his view that because he is one of the very few people who has seen said cover card out of the slab, his opinion that the card was not trimmed is correct, regardless that the person who trimmed the card has admitted such and went to prison in part because of such admission.

6. To almost everyone in this hobby, points 2, 3, 4 and 5 are irrelevant.

7. This entire discussion of "altered" versus "conserved" as a practical matter is irrelevant because regardless what one calls it, if the card gets slabbed with a numerical grade, mission accomplished -- to most people in this hobby the end justifies the means.

8. The notion of paying multiples more for a 10 than a 9 is my definition of insanity.

9. That PWCC came into being with its business model was inevitable.

10. At some future point PWCC's business model will be looked upon with the same awe and respect that PSA's set registry now is.

Conclusion

1. I feel very fortunate I got started in the hobby when cards had no value, which allows me to continue to collect as a hobby and for fun.

2. It felt good to vent.