The downfall of the PSA boards.

[HRBAKER]

I have no dog in this debate but I think that the notion that the majority of high value and rare collections reside in anyone's plastic cases is pretty myopic.
Also not sure what the 99% and 1% divide is.

[botn]

Originally Posted by eomint

What I meant to say is that many of those who have arguably some of the rarest and most valuable stuff have entrusted their collection to PSA. That is a fact, not an opinion.

There are some astounding collections in SGC holders and some that are not in any holders at all. Based on those collectors whose names you mentioned, I suspect by "rare" you are referring to PSA population figures for high grade (9s and 10s) cards. Others might define rare in a different manner.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Nevermind

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

I have no dog in this debate but I think that the notion that the majority of high value and rare collections reside in anyone's plastic cases is pretty myopic.
Also not sure what the 99% and 1% divide is.

+1

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

If the light is just right, and you squint hard enough, this thread somewhat resembles Han Solo.

[novakjr]

Yeah, I wasn't trying to bash anyone with my last post. Especially not PSA(although, I will admit that I don't necessarily agree with the poofing). I actually have plenty of respect for PSA, BGS and SGC. But they all have their flaws, and there shouldn't be anything wrong with pointing out those flaws.

Now, I believe there are some ill-intentions towards PSA being thrown around, but at the core of those ill-intentions there are still a few nuggets worthy of legitimate concern. Some choose to lash out, others choose to more calmly shed some light on the matter. It would be nice to not have to dig through intentions to find the truth, but it doesn't mean that we should ignore them alltogether.

Seriously, out of everything that's gone on PSA-wise in the past few weeks on the board, I think there are probably a few very legitimate concerns. And I will admit that with some digging, a few interesting things have been brought over. Like the P-P submission info with all the 10's.

As far as the newbies here, who seem to have only come here to vent. I think we need to look at that in perspective as well. We're being dropped right in the middle, without too much knowledge of how all of this may have been handled to begin with.. It's obvious that we're getting is the boil over, which may be a good thing. Because I've got to believe that it takes a person who is very passionate and serious about the hobby to let it get to that point. So a bit of harshness and short-sightedness should be expected at this point.. I expect all the newbies to eventually settle down, and let their passion lead to them becoming legitimate contributors to this board. And if we've gotta deal with a little mayhem in the meantime, it may be worth waiting it out.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by eomint

What I meant to say is that many of those who have arguably some of...

It's really impossible to argue with such a statement. What I mean is that it's arguably difficult for many of us to disagree with some of it.

[Deertick]

I look at the PSA refugees as I would taking in a stray dog: It may not have very good manners nor understanding of what's going on, but with a little training can be a valued member of the household. Or continue to poop wherever it pleases. One will get "attaboys", the other a trip to the "farm".

Jim Ma.rinari

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Deertick

I look at the PSA refugees as I would taking in a stray dog: It may not have very good manners nor understanding of what's going on, but with a little training can be a valued member of the household. Or continue to poop wherever it pleases. One will get "attaboys", the other a trip to the "farm".

Jim Ma.rinari

That's a good analogy.

Scott <=== off to find a burlap sack and some rocks

[ALR-bishop]

This board, that board, any board, share what you know, appreciate what others contribute and do not take yourself so darn seriously...and welcome and appreciate newcomers

[Jay Wolt]

Al, well said!

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

I think you need to look further than the PSA registry leader boards before you decide where the 1% is.

It's not really a debate. You simply don't know what you're talking about.
The people at the top of those "leader boards" are really just people that want to be hobby celebrities. They don't have the best stuff out there, that's a fact.

I personally don't hate people who have positioned themselves, in life, where the can amass spectacular collections. I feel lucky to know some people like that, and by knowing whats out there, I simply can't force myself to consider a bunch of "#1 Topps sets", or the "#1 T206 set" anything to call great. I know I sound like an ass, but I'm pretty sure buying high grade topps cards is a waste of money. People are paying wayyyy too high a premium for someones opinion on a card.

Matt Hall

that's exactly right, there are tons of rare, great stuff, not in psa holders or with psa certs. tons of it.

the people on the top of the registry board just want to be celebrities, they want the pat on the back from psa. when psa holds their awards ceremony, there they are going up to accept the award of "best post 1930 but pre 1932 regional drum majorette set" psa 9.9 well whoop-de-do and so what? but they walk up there like they just won the nobel prize for chemistry. they shake joe orlando's hand like they just met elvis or something.

[lsutigers1973]

Originally Posted by Deertick

I look at the PSA refugees as I would taking in a stray dog: It may not have very good manners nor understanding of what's going on, but with a little training can be a valued member of the household. Or continue to poop wherever it pleases. One will get "attaboys", the other a trip to the "farm".

Jim Ma.rinari

Referring to intelligent grown men as stray dogs with no manners or intellect simply because they are disgruntled with the current status of the PSA board is not only condescending but extremely rude. If you love the hobby and this forum, one would think you would welcome new members instead of belittling them.

As for the difference in TPGs. In a perfect world we would have one TPG with a holder as durable as BGS, as classy and stylish as SGC with the resale value of PSA. Anyone that truly believes that PSA isn't the current market leader is fooling themselves or has their blinders on.

[ullmandds]

"As for the difference in TPGs. In a perfect world we would have one TPG with a holder as durable as BGS, as classy and stylish as SGC with the resale value of PSA. Anyone that truly believes that PSA isn't the current market leader is fooling themselves or has their blinders on. "

+1 But as for why PSA is still the market leader is beyond me...with their piss poor grading times/customer service...and inconsistent grading.

[lsutigers1973]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

+1 But as for why PSA is still the market leader is beyond me...with their piss poor grading times/customer service...and inconsistent grading.

Completely agree. No idea how PSA has survived this long with all the past "scandals" surrounding not only some high profile cards, but also recently with the pack grading. That doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of inconsistent grading especially when many cards increase in value by up to 50x's for a simple totally objective one grade bump.

[Matthew H]

Selling your collection for a premium through PSA = smart.

Buying your collection for a premium through PSA = ?

[ullmandds]

totally agree Matt...I try to avoid buying PSA cards at all costs! But when it comes time to sell...I wish they were all in PSA holders...but I won't deal with PSA so I'm most likely leaving $$$ on the table...oh well!!!!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by lsutigers1973

Referring to intelligent grown men as stray dogs with no manners or intellect simply because they are disgruntled with the current status of the PSA board is not only condescending but extremely rude. If you love the hobby and this forum, one would think you would welcome new members instead of belittling them.

Given their 'pooping in the house', I think his analogy was pretty good. You have created a very poor straw man - as you well know, our reaction to their posts wasn't because they are disgruntled with the current status of PSA. It was because of their poor behavior over here. Personally, I don't think the other forums do a very good job of potty-training their members - they simply drop them off in a field if they don't behave correctly. At least we are trying.

Loving the hobby and this forum have nothing to do with putting up with bad behavior. I've had my wrist slapped plenty of times - claiming that it was because a moderator "doesn't love the hobby or the forum" would be ludicrous.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

totally agree Matt...I try to avoid buying PSA cards at all costs! But when it comes time to sell...I wish they were all in PSA holders...but I won't deal with PSA so I'm most likely leaving $$$ on the table...oh well!!!!

For resale value, PSA brings more in only for cards in which the Registry comes into play. For many (perhaps most) prewar issues, the PSA Registry is a non-factor. For that reason, every single card that I submit raw for grading is through SGC. I can tell you that spending 10K on a prewar, non-Registry PSA card has, for me, been a frightening endeavor.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Given their 'pooping in the house', I think his analogy was pretty good. You have created a very poor straw man - as you well know, our reaction to their posts wasn't because they are disgruntled with the current status of PSA. It was because of their poor behavior over here. Personally, I don't think the other forums do a very good job of potty-training their members - they simply drop them off in a field if they don't behave correctly. At least we are trying.

Loving the hobby and this forum have nothing to do with putting up with bad behavior. I've had my wrist slapped plenty of times - claiming that it was because a moderator "doesn't love the hobby or the forum" would be ludicrous.

If not for Scott's comments on this thread I may have jumped out the window at the end of the first page. Please keep them coming.

[insidethewrapper]

Look at these 2 PSA submissions ( A) and ( 10 ). Guess what dealer is selling the (10). It's on ebay now.

[bobbyw8469]

If not for Scott's comments on this thread I may have jumped out the window at the end of the first page. Please keep them coming.

Darn it - I wish Scott had stayed away...one can only hope! (j/k)

[ullmandds]

Mike...nice evidence...it is such crap...its like the fed reserve printing money for their friends!!!

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by E93

Eomint came on and seemed to be very polite and measured in expressing his opinions. Others are free to disagree, but does it have to be mean and childish?
JimB

+1

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Another thing pertaining T206s, PSA is much stricter on grading than SGC. I have many SGC 84's and 86's that would never even cross to PSA 6 or 6.5's....Sorry, but it is what it is......

I need you to submit for me then Kevin.

I find the exact opposite I have many more PSA cards that won’t make the SGC cut for cross overs I have lots of PSA 6-7’s that when looked at had minor issues that when crossed went down grades.

Both companies are fine BTW I just think SGC is way tougher and I don’t think I would be alone in that stance.

In terms of returns I have confidence that my cards will get good values and that no major money is being left on the table crossing from PSA to SGC. I think quality items sell for quality prices regardless of what TPG they are in within reason of course.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Darn it - I wish Scott had stayed away...one can only hope! (j/k)

I'm leaving. Someone go nail Jeff's window shut.

[ullmandds]

Totally agree with John on this one... PSA is notorious for over grading. Kevin I kind of remember You dumping a whole load of PSA vg/ex's That were totally over graded... Most of those would have dropped one or two or three tiers on SGC?

[CMIZ5290]

Peter/John- sorry you guys disagree, but I can send you a bunch of scans on SGC graded cards that are incredibly overgraded...I just dont see it with PSA, it's almost like some of you guys lost a ton of money on PSA stock! Also, for the record Peter, I have never had a bunch of PSA 4's that I unloaded, no clue where that's coming from as I dont even collect lower grades...would love to see those as I have never,ever had a ton of 4's....

[wonkaticket]

No stock in any TPG or love hate for either. Picked SGC because I liked the holders, the people and they are close to me. They also do a good job too.

Just saying in my experience I have had equal from both guys SGC and PSA. In my stacks of PSA I have a lot of cards that would never cross to SGC at their current grade due to things like minor paper loss missed, creases, marks etc. Things that sadly for my cross attempts SGC does not miss.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by lsutigers1973

Referring to intelligent grown men as stray dogs with no manners or intellect simply because they are disgruntled with the current status of the PSA board is not only condescending but extremely rude. If you love the hobby and this forum, one would think you would welcome new members instead of belittling them.

As for the difference in TPGs. In a perfect world we would have one TPG with a holder as durable as BGS, as classy and stylish as SGC with the resale value of PSA. Anyone that truly believes that PSA isn't the current market leader is fooling themselves or has their blinders on.

I read this board for months prior to registering. As a result, I am unaware of any time that I posted in the wrong category multiple times, called out longtime board members over perceived slights, denigrated solicited opinions, or pretend to have knowlege in areas I don't.

I was mainly referring to the the FACT that the lack of decorum that is prevalent on other boards and blogs on the interwebs, sometimes carries over to their participation here. There is a learning curve that most go through to outgrow the posturing and shouting which is necessary for survival on other boards. Most succeed, but some don't don't even try to get it.

Clearly, I was not calling new members "dogs". And "intelligent grown men" don't have hissy fits.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Deertick

I read this board for months prior to registering. As a result, I am unaware of any time that I posted in the wrong category multiple times, called out longtime board members over perceived slights, denigrated solicited opinions, or pretend to have knowlege in areas I don't.

I was mainly referring to the the FACT that the lack of decorum that is prevalent on other boards and blogs on the interwebs, sometimes carries over to their participation here. There is a learning curve that most go through to outgrow the posturing and shouting which is necessary for survival on other boards. Most succeed, but some don't don't even try to get it.

Clearly, I was not calling new members "dogs". And "intelligent grown men" don't have hissy fits.

I have no idea what you just said.....Too many beers I guess....

[Runscott]

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I have no idea what you just said.....Too many beers I guess....

Me or you?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I can send you a bunch of scans on SGC graded cards that are incredibly overgraded.

I'd like to see one. Just one. It has to be something that we can all agree is overgraded (paper loss, pin holes, etc), not just your opinion that it's overgraded. I'll go first. Here is a PSA 6 with paper loss. Probably should have graded no higher than a 2 (overgraded by 4 grades). Either way, I think we can both agree it's not a 6.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I'd like to see one. Just one. It has to be something that we can all agree is overgraded (paper loss, pin holes, etc), not just your opinion that it's overgraded. I'll go first. Here is a PSA 6 with paper loss. Probably should have graded no higher than a 2 (overgraded by 4 grades). Either way, I think we can both agree it's not a 6.

David- what about corner wear? Isn't that important?? SGC is a joke when it comes to this....

[CMIZ5290]

David- Also, how do you know the card was not swapped out? I will admit, one downfall of PSA is the holders are very easily tamperable,,,but would'nt common sense take over in a case like this when you are looking at the card? how in the world would PSA miss this kind of paper loss? no way.....

[CMIZ5290]

When is the last time you have seen PSA 7 T206s with slightly rounded corners? how many SGC's would you like to see?? I have many.....

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

David- what about corner wear? Isn't that important?? SGC is a joke when it comes to this....

Corner wear is fine, as long as we can all agree it's "incredibly overgraded."

And no, that card was not swapped out. I can show you another PSA 6 with even more paper loss that belonged to a board member. He had to get PSA to make it right.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Corner wear is fine, as long as we can all agree it's "incredibly overgraded."

And no, that card was not swapped out. I can show you another PSA 6 with even more paper loss that belonged to a board member. He had to get PSA to make it right.

Corner wear is fine? Really? Holy cow, how many PSA 7's would you like that you can easily cross to SGC 88-96's based on that? You dont collect coins do you?

[HRBAKER]

Hey we all make mistakes, it happens. Luckily most of us aren't experts.



For those of you who think that essentially it's hard to tell the difference between an 8 and a 9.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Corner wear is fine? Really? Holy cow, how many PSA 7's would you like that you can easily cross to SGC 88-96's based on that? You dont collect coins do you?

Kevin, you're twisiting my words. I didn't mean that corner was fine as an acceptable flaw on a card. I meant corner wear was fine if you wanted to use it as an example to show me an SGC card that is overgraded.

Still waiting.

[CMIZ5290]

David- No offense, but to take a stance that "corner wear" is fine when it comes to T206 grading makes absolutely no sense to me. Yes, I know, there are some members that will insist "if the corners are too sharp, it must be trimmed!" So where in the hell do you draw the line? All I am saying is that if you look at SGC 84's and PSA 7's consistantly, 80% or better of the time, there is no comparison....

[CMIZ5290]

David-How many examples of overgraded SGC t206s would you like to see? Start with this one, Google SGC 84 Hal Chase (dark cap). I recently bought this card for less than $400 on Ebay, is this really a 7? I dont think so....

[vintagetoppsguy]

Just one will suffice.

[wonkaticket]

Kevin love to see some, but Chris is away so not sure he can post scans for you.

Also Kevin I will be submitting quite a few PSA 7s this month I will keep an eye out for these easy 88's and 96's I should be getting back from those sloppy SGC folks. Good to hear about this I'm very excited.

[CMIZ5290]

David- here's another, take a peak at Ebay SGC 86 Harry Mcintyre, look at all corners....Really, a 7.5? not even close....let me know if you want me to go on....

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Kevin love to see some, but Chris is away so not sure he can post scans for you.

Also Kevin I will be submitting quite a few PSA 7s this month I will keep an eye out for these easy 88's and 96's I should be getting back from those sloppy SGC folks. Good to hear about this I'm very excited.

John- no offense, but as tight as you are, I doubt you have the nuts to crack PSA 7's! I didnt even know you had any...

[wonkaticket]

Not sure i follow Kevin perhaps you can clarify your comment?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

David- here's another, take a peak at Ebay SGC 86 Harry Mcintyre, look at all corners....Really, a 7.5? not even close....let me know if you want me to go on....

Please point out specifically what you're talking about. It looks like an 86 to me all day long. If you do't think it's an 86, what do you think it is?

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Not sure i follow Kevin perhaps you can clarify your comment?

If you want clarification, why don't you give me a call? 229-630-1686....