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#151
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#152
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Just putting it out there, if Bonds and Clemens get in. Manny Ramirez better shortly follow. He was no slouch on the roids.
__________________
My Red Schoendienst collection- https://imageevent.com/lucas00/redsc...enstcollection My Baseball Snapshot Photo collection- https://imageevent.com/lucas00/snapshotcollection Original Type 1/Press photos etc for sale- https://imageevent.com/lucas00/photosforsale |
#153
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Hernandez won an MVP with the Cardinals and finished 2nd in the voting with the Mets, followed by two more top 10 finishes. He was an all star 5x. 11 Gold Gloves. Olerud was a 2x All-Star who only got MVP votes twice. 3 Gold Gloves. Hernadez' WAR and JAWS are higher than Olerud as well. Keith's appearance on Seinfeld and the fact that he is one of the better announcers doesn't hurt. Last edited by cgjackson222; 11-12-2022 at 08:28 PM. |
#154
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Manny failed not one, but TWO such tests...if he ever makes it, he's at the back of the line, not the front.
__________________
Check out my articles at Cardlines.com! |
#155
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Here are 162-game comparisons for all the 1st base HOF candidates we have been discussing:
NAME HR RBI AVG OPS+ Allen... 33 104 .292 156 McGriff 32 102 .284 134 Helton. 27 101 .316 133 Olerud. 18 -89 .295 129 Herndz 13 -86 .296 128 Mattgly 20 100 .307 127 Garvey 19 -91 .294 117 Allen's prime years were in the pitcher's era of the late 60's and early 70's when fences were back and HRs were hard to hit, yet his offensive numbers are better than anyone else in the group. His OPS+ which adjusts for the era, is far and away the best. In fact Allen's 156 is 23rd all-time in OPS+, tied with Frank Thomas and just ahead of Aaron, Mays, DiMaggio, and Ott. Meanwhile McGriff is tied at 134 with fellow 1st baseman Abreu, Prince Fielder, John Kruk and Boog Powell. Allen should be in the Hall plain and simple, he was one of the most dominating hitters of all time. |
#156
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#157
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Yesterday I landed his 1967 road GU jersey in the Hunt live auction. I bid as if he's already a HOFer. |
#158
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Ah crap... I knew I was leaving out a big one. Had to dig deep for those other names and left out the obvious.... Yeah Dick Allen is a big omission.
Speaking of which.... Congrats Mark, on scoring that gorgeous Dick Allen Flannel. Classic jersey of a future HOFer. A tremendous addition to your collection! |
#159
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If you could replace one player from the Contemporary Ballot with of a player that wasn't nominated, which players would you choose?
I would switch out Albert Belle for Lou Whitaker. Belle was one of the most feared hitters during his career, but his career was just too short. His bWAR of 40.1 and JAWS of of 38.1 both rank 41st for Left Fielders, behind Brian Downing, Roy White any many other non-HOF worthy players. He only had 5 years where his bWAR was 4 or greater. His use of a corked bat doesn't help his case--even if corked bats may not actually help you hit better. Just because you are bad at cheating, doesn't mean you didn't cheat. Sweet Lou won ROY, was a 5x All Star, 4x Silver Slugger, and 3x Gold Glove winner, and won a World Series. Whitaker didn't have a high peak, but it was long--he had 10 years of 4 bWAR or greater. Whitaker's 75.1 bWAR ranks 7th all-time among Second Basemen, ahead of Ryne Sandberg, Roberto Alomar and many other HOFers. The fact that Allan Trammel is in the HOF and Whitaker isn't makes no sense. Whitaker has more hits, Runs, HRs, RBI, a higher OBP, Slugging, and beat him by 7 points in OPS+ |
#160
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I love Whitaker as a choice, but Grich might be a better one.
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#161
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He might be, but let's stick to the Contemporary Baseball rules, with players who had their highest impact in the 1980s or later. Grich's best years were in the 70s.
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#162
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If you excuse the Steroid allegations, only Bonds and Clemons from this group. The other guys were great players and great skills but fall short of what is required for HOF enshrinement. Shilling is out because he fails as a human being in my opinion.
__________________
Favorite MLB quote. " I knew we could find a place to hide you". Lee Smith talking about my catching abilities at Cubs Fantasy camp. |
#163
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Child molester? Murderer? Rapist? Drug addict? Cheater? Drug dealer? Mobster? Peeping Tom? Jaywalker? Bank robber? Flasher? Vivisectionist? Necrophiliac? Satanism? Drunkard? Necromancer? Wife beater? Gay? All of the above? |
#164
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If we ignore steroids for Bonds and Clemens, I don't see how Palmeiro isn't also a clear hall of famer. He's not as good as Bonds, obviously, but he seems to be easily over the Hall standard. 3,000 hits, 569 homers, 132 OPS+. He's clearly a hall of famer as well, if we are ignoring the roads. |
#165
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Curt won the Roberto Clemente Award, the Hutch Award, the Branch Rickey Award, the Lou Gehrig Memorial Award, and the SI Sportsman of the Year Award. All of these awards were based not only on his on-field accomplishments, but also his character and charitable pursuits.
Hopefully his peers will do the right thing and undo the injustice a minority of the writers perpetuated.
__________________
Contact me if you have any Dave Kingman cards / memorabilia for sale. |
#166
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While I won't argue Hernandez was not better defensively, Olerud was close and he was better at eliminating throwing errors thanks to his extra 5" in height and larger wingspan. At the end of the day, though, the difference in their defense adds up to not much actual impact. I'm not saying Olerud belongs in. I don't. But I also don't think Keith does either. The Hall doesn't need 1B with 162 homers. |
#167
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Keith may not be a shoe-in, but he deserves another chance at a vote. I suppose Olerud may too. Last edited by cgjackson222; 11-15-2022 at 05:49 AM. |
#168
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JAWS figures are what they are but do you think any GM would draft Hernandez over Terry, Killebrew, David Ortiz, Tony Perez or Orlando Cepeda? Last edited by packs; 11-15-2022 at 07:52 AM. |
#169
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If I were a GM, I'd pick Keith over most of them. |
#170
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I was pointing out that Hernandez is the weakest on the list and may explain why he is the one not in the HOF.
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#171
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Weakest in what way, other than that you think GMs would not want him as much as the others?
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#172
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Bill Terry is closest to him but Keith Hernandez didn't hit 400 or retire with a 341 average. |
#173
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Hernandez is underrated for his offensive production. For instance, he had an offensive WAR over five 3x, was a 2x Silver Slugger, and his OPS+ is 6 points higher than Perez'. Last edited by cgjackson222; 11-15-2022 at 09:58 AM. |
#174
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You have to mash to get into the HOF at first base. Keith Hernandez did not mash. Tony Perez his over 200 more home runs than Hernandez and drove in over 600 more runs.
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#175
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__________________
A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives......Jackie Robinson Last edited by JimmyC; 11-15-2022 at 10:02 AM. |
#176
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Not all first baseman in the HOF "mashed". Hernandez has more career Homers than Bill Terry. I'm just saying Hernandez deserves another shot. |
#177
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He hit .296, he walked well, he had little power. If .296/.384/.436 in the context that he did it is a HOF 1B, then we'd have to elect a ton of people. If it is his defense, well, I really don't see an argument for a defensive 1B to be elected while people revile every defense-first HOFer except for Ozzie Smith (Mazeroski, Maranville, Schalk, everyone but Ozzie dots the 'worst HOFer' opinion lists).
I get that Hernandez was very good at playing 1B, but I have a hard time ascribing the huge value to this that WAR does. Killebrew -18.7, Hernandez +1.3 (a positive at 1B is very, very tough); it's how they punish 1B not to dominate the rankings with their bats. 1B also has a positional adjustment factor on top of the dWAR component. Thus it has Killebrew and Hernandez equal overall in WAR because of the dWAR gap. I cannot fathom a single team picking Hernandez over Killebrew, not because they are stupid and don't understand analytics, but because Killebrew is clearly more valuable. WAR has a lot of problems with defense; one of many reasons it should not be treated as gospel. Will Clark and Fred McGriff are better candidates for 1B who played when Hernandez did. Olerud, Hernandez, they are better than the absolute worst 1B, but those mistakes should not be extended to justify hundreds of more mistakes. |
#178
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Bill Terry hit 400. If Keith Hernandez hit 400 I'd want him in too. But he didn't. He also didn't hit 341 over his career like Terry did, which is extraordinary.
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#179
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We live in a big Hall world. If we lived in a small Hall world, I would agree that Hernandez should not be considered. But in our current reality, he should get another shot. And letting Hernandez in wouldn't open the floodgates to "hundreds of more mistakes" Last edited by cgjackson222; 11-15-2022 at 11:03 AM. |
#180
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#181
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Hernandez has a lot more than just WAR. He has an MVP and two other top 5 finishes. He was a central figure for two different team's championships. He has a batting title, 2 silver sluggers, and 5 All Star nods. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. Last edited by cgjackson222; 11-15-2022 at 11:34 AM. |
#182
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Now George Kelly I think we can all agree on |
#183
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There was a post here a few months ago about which current 1st basemen will get elected once they are eligible. The consensus was Pujols and Cabrera will get in for sure (great insight I know), but that the next guys behind those two - Votto, Freeman and Goldschmidt - will have a hard time getting enough votes. And those guys are all a tier up from Hernandez. Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk Last edited by Gorditadogg; 11-15-2022 at 11:55 AM. |
#184
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Duplicate
Last edited by Gorditadogg; 11-15-2022 at 11:53 AM. |
#185
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I'd say the ten best players not in the Hall, in order, are
Barry Bonds Roger Clemens Alex Rodriguez Mike Trout Clayton Kershaw Justin Verlander Max Scherzer Jim McCormick Albert Pujols Curt Schilling There are maybe as many as 20 other eligible players who haven't gotten in yet and probably should, but I don't feel too bad about omitting anyone who isn't on the above list. Even if you want to limit Hall membership to something like the 50 best players per century of MLB history, they're all above that cutoff. |
#186
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I don’t think I would put McCormick over Pujols, but I’m a fan of his candidacy.
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#187
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Exactly. Hernandez had a WONDERFUL career. But lots of guys have had wonderful careers that don't belong in the Hall. Bill Madlock won FOUR batting titles and was a 3-time All-Star, was a major factor in a title for Pittsburgh, and a major factor in a division title for Detroit. Nobody thinks he belongs - but he had a wonderful career. And so on.
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#188
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Yes I do.
__________________
Contact me if you have any Dave Kingman cards / memorabilia for sale. |
#189
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#190
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I don't think more than a tiny minority of fans will consider 1B gold gloves to be much of a Hall argument. |
#191
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__________________
Contact me if you have any Dave Kingman cards / memorabilia for sale. |
#192
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I have to ask if Hernandez is a HOFer do you think Mattingly is too? I love Mattingly like no one else but I don’t think he’s a HOFer by the numbers. He does however share many similar highlights with Hernandez. Mutual MVPs, a batting title, 9 gold gloves, 6 time all star, 3 time silver slugger. Similar counting stats aside from WAR.
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#193
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__________________
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#194
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#195
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I think the only people who believe 1B defense is a hall worthy honor as Keith Hernandez fans. I have never heard this argument made for anyone else. Defense first catchers, shortstops and second basemen in the Hall are usually listed among the very worst electees. Perhaps I greatly underestimate the value of 1B defense.
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#196
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The Black Sox rigged a World Series and destroyed the integrity of the game. Schilling retweeted a meme that has nothing to do with baseball whatsoever.
This is why the Hall should be based on reasonably objective criteria and not feelings. |
#197
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Based on his off-field shenanigans? Or are there other features that sicken you?
__________________
Trying to wrap up my master mays set, with just a few left: 1968 American Oil left side 1971 Bazooka numbered complete panel |
#198
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And if you take two seconds to look beyond the slash line, you'd see that Madlock led the league in exactly 3 things--Batting Average, Double Plays hit into, and Hit by Pitch. Madlock was about as one dimensional a player as it gets. He hit a lot of singles. Hernandez was a much more dynamic player (at or close to lead league in doubles, walks, etc), which in turn helped him be at or near the league lead in runs. Runs are important. Last edited by cgjackson222; 11-16-2022 at 12:29 PM. |
#199
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Madlock and Hernandez have almost the same rate of doubles, homers, and runs. Madlock outslugged Hernandez by a few points for more TB per year. If these numbers make Madlock one dimensional at the plate, so was Hernandez. Madlock slightly wins in black ink, Hernandez wins grey ink by a wide margin (though neither is Hall territory). WAR suggests neither ever deserved an MVP. oWAR suggests Madlock was the better offensive player, 49.1 to 46.3. I am not sure I agree with that. Looking at their oWAR, their rates of counting stats per 162, their standard percentages BA/OBP/SLG they are very similar. Madlock grounded into 5 more double plays a year, but struck out a ton less. Both have a poor stealing record.
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#200
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No Roidboys.
Can't seriously argue any of the others after they let Baines in. |
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