Mastro Auction Descriptions

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Posted By: jay behrens

And we all witnessed what happened when electric power was deregulated in CA. Enron happened. This goes back to my point about people having one set of morals and ethics for their personal life and one for their business life.

In a utopia, no regulations would be just fine, but sadly, people's greed usually trumps their morals and ethics, so we need to have regulations in place to try and limit the lack of ethics and morality when it comes to business and money.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

...........Every person I talk to that has been in the hobby 20 yrs or more knows it's always gone on and always will.....I mainly collect gd-vg cards so it's really not that big of a deal. I would be more attacking the grading companies if I were you. They are the ones not catching the things that can't be detected >....best regards

First of all, I have been collecting since 1978. I think most of us "old timers" in the Hobby will agree when I state that altering cards was not a big problem until Copeland started paying outrageous amounts at the time for NM cards. This is when some dealers with $$$ in their eyes started trimming cards to sell to Copeland (and, as many of us old timers know - Bill Mastro was acquiring a lot of these cards for Copeland)!

Also, you want us to attack the grading companies and NOT Mastro Inc. and Doug Allen, after Doug admitted to altering cards before sending them to grading companies. Well, this is assinine! This would be like blaming the police for not catching a criminal! Oh, you killed someone - well, it is the police department's fault for not catching you. You are OK in my book, it is the police who we should blame. Common - use a little common sense!

I do agree with one thing Leon stated - I also collect lower grade cards. That is one reason I still win lots from Mastro Inc. I will never consign with them again, and there are definitely cards in their auctions I would NOT bid on. However, it is like I told some people new to the Hobby - if you are going to bid on a lot in a Mastro auction and don't really know what to look for in regards to restoration or trimming, simply bid on SGC 40's and below. Do NOT bid on ungraded lots in their auctions nor PSA graded cards - especially high grades! As for autographs and game mem. - don't touch it with a ten foot pole!

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Posted By: shane leonard

Jeff,
We are buying cards from Mastro, who brings to us the collector, collections that are not circulated on the open market. Most all of the cards that are raw in these lots are tampered free by card doctors. A HIGH percentage of those that are graded by these auction houses have performed some sort of work to them. (flatened corner, wax wipped off the front, wrinkle pressed out) I am having a hard time believing that this is really that much of an issue for the industry. It has been around for many years even before grading. It is an exceptable practice that will continue for much longer than it has existed.
The question to those that have a problem with this is what hobby are you going to next?

Shane

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Posted By: leon

And all of this is coming from a guy who thinks all Wagners with Piedmont backs are 1950's reprints. Priceless.

I don't disagree with you about when the trimming for dollars probably started. Since I wasn't in the hobby 25 years ago I don't know so will give you that one. BTW, isn't this the board that protects Mastro and won't let negative things be said about them? You can't have it both ways...

Personally I don't have a problem with what Doug has said they might do to cards...and it's not "spooning" out creases. I don't have an issue with the 1st tier alterations like putting a corner down, erasing a light mark (or heavy one if the damn thing will come off) or any number of other very minor, superficial things. You do....we can easily agree to have a different opinion.....take care

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Posted By: Cobby33

For those of us/you who don't want some kind of "regulation" or monitoring of these practices, then they will continue. They'll continue without regulation/monitoring, but to a greater extent.

The only real solution here is to boycott. Is anybody prepared to do that?

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

And all of this is coming from a guy who thinks all Wagners with Piedmont backs are 1950's reprints. Priceless.

I don't disagree with you about when the trimming for dollars probably started. Since I wasn't in the hobby 25 years ago I don't know so will give you that one. BTW, isn't this the board that protects Mastro and won't let negative things be said about them? You can't have it both ways...

Personally I don't have a problem with what Doug has said they might do to cards...and it's not "spooning" out creases. I don't have an issue with the 1st tier alterations like putting a corner down, erasing a light mark (or heavy one if the damn thing will come off) or any number of other very minor, superficial things. You do....we can easily agree to have a different opinion.....take care



As I stated today on the website Jay and I created today - All the Piedmont Wagners are cut from sheets and are either 1950's reprints or cut from period sheets. Personally, I believe that most of these did come from the sheets printed up in the 1950's that Mr. Heitman even discussed on this board (but, I guess you know more about T206's than Bill Heitman to hear you tell it?).

There are some facts about Piedmont Wagners you seem to forget while trying to make me look like an idiot! -
1) Piedmonts are MORE COMMON than Sweet Caporals - so why are there NOT more Piedmont Wagners than SC?
2) ALL Piedmont Wagners sold by these auction houses as real have been handcut and not factory cut.
3) There were Piedmont Wagners printed in the 1950's - I have seen a couple over the years and they looked damn good (they could have easily been passed off as real if the owners had not been honest).
4) NONE of the Piedmont Wagners that have come up for sale can have their provenance traced to a date before the 1950's!

BTW - This is not the board that takes up for Mastro - YOU are the owner who takes up for Mastro! Just as you are doing in this thread.

You might not have a problem with Mastro and Doug altering cards, but it CERTAINLY seems like others here have problems with it!

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Posted By: jay behrens

And racism existed for too. Did that make it right also? If it's so acceptable, then why do the people that do alterations stay below the radar and hide from the public. If it was acceptable, I'd think they would be running ads in Old Cardboard looking for more business.

You can bury your head in the sand about the problem, but some of us are trying to make things better for everyone, including you.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Leon, Doug Allen/Mastro may take their licks here, but I think Scott's point is that you will defend Mastro to your dying breath. It makes some of us wonder just what it will take for you question Mastro's business practices.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Since you only know how to disagree, as evidenced by your participation on the board, I will take it you agree with me. Thanks ......

WTF was that all about and where did that come from? I was very respectful in my post. And you feel the need to slam me? Pathetic!

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

Leon, above you tell people to blame the grading companies for NOT catching Mastro's alterations. Then, you state you have NO PROBLEM with Mastro's types of alterations. Why did you say to blame the grading companies, if there is nothing wrong with Mastro's alterations? Which is it. Should someone be blamed or not? Sounds to me like you are saying it is OK for Mastro Inc. and Doug to do this type of alteration. However, if we who disagree want to blame someone, we need to blame the grading companies for NOT catching Mastro's alterations. Again, this would be like blaming the police for not catching a criminal. These statements do not make any sense when put together. Also, the statement of blaming the grading companies does not make any sense on its own merit. I would simply like an answer to the statement regarding blaming the grading companies for not catching Mastro's alterations without bringing in my opinions on Piedmont Wagners (which really is going O/T with this thread - if you want to discuss Piedmont Wagners, and start a new thread, I will be happy to chime in a couple of times with my views - even though I have stated them more times than some people want to hear).

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Posted By: leon

I went back and read your post again. I think I took it the wrong way. My apology on that one....regards

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Posted By: leon

I don't have a problem with anything Doug has said they might do to a card. If grading companies can't catch something, because it's not there or can't be detected or seen, then so be it. Those are things I am not going to worry about. regards

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Posted By: Doug Allen

Sorry guys my day job did not allow me to follow all of the dialogue today. To be honest I can't possible read it all. Let me make an additional comment based on what I have had a chance to read.

Since my dialogue on this forum months ago I have met extensively with Joe Orlando and Dave Forman. As a result of this dialogue I totally understand what PSA and SGC consider alteration to cards and neither myself or anyone from my firm will ever engage in the alteration of cards. We will disclose alterations that we note in items that are consigned to us and will continue to scrutinize cards submitted to us that have already been graded by an independant service. I refuse to say anything else on the subject. If I indicated there was a fleck of tobacco on a card and I flicked it off there would be 20 posts about how inappropriate this is. Everything I say here is taken totally out of context and blown out of proportion that is the reason I choose not to answer specific questions on this subject.

Someone I respect contacted me today and told me to stay off this forum. They told me I can't win. I totally disagree. I believe the majority of the people who read this forum understand that I am trying to be honest and responsive. Everyone who knows me understands that I am a person who considers much of my business success to based on ethics and integrity.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Fair enough. Apology accepted.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Weird how some collectors feel free to tell others to "go choose another past-time" if they voice issue with aspects of their chosen hobby.....as though you have divine truth and rationale to your beliefs, and everyone else can go jump.

Seriously, aren't you just compulsive collectors - much like the rest of us, and you too are equally free to go find other pursuits?

I'm yet to hear anybody actually suggest doctoring/altering cards is a GOOD thing, a POSITIVE for the hobby, so in effect you all have the same desire for un-fu@#*^ with cards as the rest of us.

So why be an enabler? It's one thing to frown and shrug and give up, but another altogether to piss on efforts to keep cards from being doctored or honestly advertised.
Isn't the very least we can expect as a hobby community to be truthfully advised when the truth is comfortably at hand?
Just don't lie to us or pare down the facts to those you think we need or can understand.

At least then we're not being played for suckers.



Daniel

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Posted By: leon

So if I erase a tiny pencil mark on the back of a card and don't tell you then I am playing you for a sucker? Otherwise, I agree with much of what you said...

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Posted By: JimB

"4) NONE of the Piedmont Wagners that have come up for sale can have their provenance traced to a date before the 1950's!"

The Charles Bray Piedmont Wagner came with a correspondance letter he wrote to the person he purchased the card from. It was clear from the letter that the owner did not know the difference between Heinie Wagner and Honus Wagner. Someone in the hobby who would have printed a sheet of T206 reprints with a Wagner on it, even then would have known the difference. YOu are right that the provenance only goes to this point in 1953 (I believe), but it suggests that the owner probably had them for a while. Charles Bray used to advertise in the Sporting News. I imagine the person contacted him that way. My guess is he (the seller) was related to someone close to the printers and had one of those Piedmont sheets and cut it up with scizzors. The Bray Piedmont Wagner was obviously handcut.
JimB

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Leon, I'm fine with the pencil erasure if you tell me - not if you don't.

And the reason it's important is because one man's art gum eraser is another man's laser cutter. The guy with the laser cutter doesn't REALLY feel bad about what he's doing because he sees a bunch of guys with erasers, and tubs full of floating cards that end up beneath encyclopedias, and gum/glue marks being magically removed, and corners un-flipped, and goes...."SEE, I'M NOT SUCH A BAD GUY, THEY'RE ALL DOING IT, WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?".

Kapish?


Daniel

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Doug, thanks for your response. Now that you are accepting PSA's and SGC's definition of alteration, it would be clear that Mastro has changed its policy of "pressing out wrinkles or creases." Presumably, you will continue to erase pencil marks as long as they are not "power erased."

I'm sure you will correct me if I am misstating Mastro's new policy.

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Posted By: leon

I understand what you are saying but don't necessarily take the next step...that's all....I have never tried to get a crease/wrinkle out of a card or trimmed a card. ... I have however, removed gunk with a wet cue tip, erased pencil marks, and turned down a corner with saliva...I don't think that makes me a bad person.........others might disagree with my dastardly ways though..... I don't condone major card repair or any of the 2nd or 3rd level stuff that has been spoken of...again, I am not taking that next step..... and I still sleep well....

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Posted By: leon

My limited understanding of powerwashing is more like erasing paper ie..trimming, than removing marks. I could be wrong though....

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Posted By: T206Collector

The difference in your dichotomy is that among the standards in the community, laser cutting is universally abhorred, while erasers and soaking are accepted on different scales. It is easier for you to live in a world of black and white collecting; but many of us are comfortable knowing what is taboo (i.e., trimming) and what is accepted by many (i.e., soaking gunk and erasing pencil marks).

If you are trying to change the accepted community standards in this regard, you will find that you will have very little luck when faced with undetectable alterations -- because there is no way to police your applied moral values.

I believe that the industry standard is essentially driven by alterations that can be consistenty detected. While there may be moral values on both extremes of that equation (puritans vs. laser cutting, color adders), most of us are somewhere in the middle. But I certainly respect your interest in keeping cards pure. If you ever find a way to ensure that better than SGC can, please let me (and them) know.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

In all my many years of collecting I have heard of only two confirmed Piedmont Wagners (the PSA 8 and the one sold several years ago by REA (the Bray example?)) and rumors of a third (back in the 1970's). Yet you say that you have personally seen several that are confirmed 1950's reprints and they are so good that without proper disclosure they could pass as originals. Do you know the people who own these reprints, and if so, do you think they might be willing to share them with the rest of us? It seems to me that if they were not trying to fool anybody that they very well might for the benefit of all share what they have/know.

Also, I'm curious to know your opinion as to whether these 1950's reprints were made from original plates or from duplicate plates. Finally, in another thread you mentioned that the PSA 8 Wagner exhibits certain characteristics that make you believe it is not a period card. What specifically are you referring to?

In asking these questions I do not mean to belittle your views. Rather, until last year I had never even heard rumors of authentic-looking 1950's reprints, let alone an allegation that the PSA 8 example is not a period card, and I'm intrigued to obtain substantiation to what you claim.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

<"If it's so acceptable, then why do the people that do alterations stay below the radar and hide from the public.">

I know of one who doesn't hide...but maybe should have.


Questions:

Who made up the terms 1st tier, 2nd tier, 3rd tier alterations and so on? Are these defined in a new grading standard? If pressing a wrinkle is considered altering, erasing is considered altering, trimming is considered altering and bleaching is considered altering then isn't there a single common denominator?

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Posted By: jay behrens

Doug, thanks for another response from Oracle of Delphi. Until you define what Mastro considers an alteration, your answer is unacceptable. You say you accept PSA and SGC's standards, but you also say that you have no problem with doing things that are patently against the standards of those companies. So, until you clarify that issue, absolutely nothing has been resolved.

added: I guess I missed the memo about tiered alterations too.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jay, stop wasting your time. Doug is in full defensive mode (except when he is in offensive mode complaining about being picked on due to his failure to provide a clear response to a very simple inquiry).

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Posted By: jay behrens

I think this probably falls under my morals and ethics things I was talking about when it comes to business and money. Doug appears to be putting aside good ethics because he fears that the answer will cost Mastro money. Why else would he dodge such an easily answered questioned?

If they want to continue to spoon cards, etc and openly admit to it, I don't have a problem with it, but don't tell us you are following PSA/SGC guidelines while doing it. You are doing either one or the other. You can't have it both ways. This all we really want to know. At least I do anyway.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Hi Paul,

I totally understand what you are saying.
But I don't feel like this is some big moral crusade or other.
It's simply about industry standards.
I also don't agree in the least that there are common alterations that a 'vast' majority are in agreeance to, newly described as 'tier one' alterations (I actually kind of like that effort Leon ), and others that are in a completely different basket. I think it would run a lot closer to 50/50 in opinion on this board re erasing pencil and any other 'minor' doctoring - and that's among a small heavily enthused board of longer time collectors who have become somewhat hardened to the realities of alterations in the hobby. Move outside our niche group, and I would be surprised if numbers didn't run closer to 90/10 against ANY kind of card altering in the wider collecting community. Certainly undisclosed altering is frowned upon in all the other major antique collectibles. You don't buy a 350 year old french cabinet that's had it's doors replaced and get told buyer beware or it's just as good as original if you couldn't tell the difference yourself.....not when you're sold something in 'original unrestored' condition. If they step up to the plate honestly and completely detail any and all restorations they are aware of, and thus expect no more that 25% the price of an un-altered example, then everyone makes their decisions fairly.

And to be honest with you (and myself) I'm under no delusions that setting a clean unambivalent standard against altering cards would end the practice, or that stocks would be erected and the tomatoes ripened in anticipation at nabbing the do-ers. However, its just like life. I tell my kid NEVER to hit his sister, even though I know he will on occasion when I'm not looking, and even when I am .
You just set the rules to be ones that seem right, and honest, and hope the majority go with the flow and do the right thing.
As it is, with the enormous amiguity as to what is even acceptable in altering cards, clearly the field would seem open to all to have-a-go-and-make-some-dough as the keys to asylum are not even pretended to be hidden.

That said, I'm with you. All my cards in SGC holders and I'll keep sending my business where I feel the guarantees are best.


Daniel

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

on the other forum. You can e-mail me, but I promised Leon I would not post a link here and I am not doing it. Too much to keep typing over and over about my thoughts regarding your questions. You can probably even do a search on this forum and find some of my old posts about your questions.

Leon, I like you as a person and have liked dealing with you. In fact, I just recently bought cards from you and I really like them - thanks again! However, I really don't like some of your Mastro defenses. Like I said, I have been collecting cards since 1978 and I have NEVER heard of these three levels of card altering you have devised! If I would have kept all the magazines, books, catalogs, etc. I have owned over the years regarding cards and our Hobby, I would need another home to store them in. An alteration is an alteration it would certainly seem from my experience. There is no need to try and develope a scale to justify what Mastro or someone else is doing is right.

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Posted By: RC McKenzie

a vintage card arrived from ebay in the mail today that had slipped out of a toploader onto a piece of tape that was loosely closing the top of the sleeve. If I had ripped the tape off, about 1/8 of the top of the card would have gone to the circular file with the tape. I spent about 45 minutes carefully removing the card from the tape and toploader and managed to only cause paperloss above the border. I pumped my fist as I had saved the card from further significant damage. I'd say I was at level 1. lol, cheers

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Doug,

You should be ashamed of yourself for insulting the intelligence of board members the way you do. The way you dodge the questions with your self-serving responses is appalling.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

So Doug to reiterate the question that Jeff asked again and has been asked by numerous participants on this thread and which you continue to avoid,is it Mastronet's policy today to take creases out of the cards to "prepare" them for grading?

How anyone now can be supportive of Doug coming on these boards when he refuses to answer the most basic of quesrtions is beyond me.

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Posted By: Doug Allen

I have answered the question. We do not alter cards that are submitted to grading services I am not dodging any questions and am not leaving any wiggle room. You all seem focused on crease removal so I will answer that specific question. PSA and SGC do not allow for anything that applies undue pressure on a card including crease removal. That would be considered an alteration of a card in keeping with this this is prohibited by my employees.

I don't mind the inquiries. I have a great distaste for the sarcasm and in appropriate comments especially from Jay. "Oracle of Delphi", comments about profit over ethics. I think this is inappropriate for a guy who doesn't know me and has never purchased a card from me or my auction.

Sorry but I am heading out on the road for the next two days to pick up consignments. Will have little access to my computer.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Finally, an answer the question. Thank you.

Now, if had given that answer right from the get go, instead of the ambiguous ones you gave previously, there never would have been a need to repeatedly ask the question over and over. It also would have averted the Oracle of Delphi comparison. What are we supposed to think when you keep dodging a simple question with ambiguous answers. Whether or not I know you or have bought a card from Mastro doesn't matter, I'm still a potential customer, and that should matter to you, but you prove with that statement that unless I spend money with you that my question is unimportant and proves that you are more worried about protecting your bottom line more than anything else.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Prior post by Doug--late 2006

"I have no problem with taking out light creases or surface wrinkles that break the surface".

This mornings's post.

"PSA and SGC do not allow for anything that applies undue pressure on a card including crease removal. That would be considered an alteration of a card in keeping with this that is prohibited by my employees".

Now there is a 180. So to further clarify Doug you used to have no problem with taking creases out of cards but now it is prohibited by your employees.

When was this change is policy?

Why change now? This is not a new policy by PSA or SGC.

Why has it been so difficult for you to be so forthcoming here?--no comments at the collectors dinner in New York and avoiding the question here on the boards?

Jim

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Posted By: Michael James

I must say that I have enjoyed reading this thread and appreciate the knowledge and concern that many of you have in regards to the issue in question. Two words that were mentioned in this thread earlier "honesty" and "integrity" have stuck out. I have been a collector for 35 years which is the majority of my life and in that time I have firsthand witnessed what "integrity" and "honesty" is or should be in the sports card/collectible field. "Honesty" and Integrity" are strong words and in a perfect world are the basis and foundation of each and every one of us. It is quite obvious and ever so apparent in todays society that the words "honesty" and "integrity" take a back seat when it comes to generating the ever so desired "green back". There was a time in the hobby when things were simple, affordable, and for the most part fun. Then greed came along and mass production went forward full speed ahead literally ruining the hobby and devaluing it. Things were no longer simple and new ideas had to be consumated in order to "revive" the hobby and "reinvent" it and bring it to where it is today. Of course things change in time for the better or for the worse but "integrity" and "honesty" remain as elusive as ever in this, should I say, once wonderful hobby. Fake autographs, trimmed/doctored trading cards, questionable practices, a constent recycling of people working for the card or auction companies fired for unethical practices and rehired elswhere within the buisness contributes to a "No-Vote" of Confidance. It has always amazed me how the "ethical" people are usually the ones who have the hardest time moving forward while the "unethicals" continue to move forward at their expense and others. Honesty? Integrity? Confidence? where has it all gone? Was it really there in the first place? I really don't know but from one who loves collecting, the sport of baseball, and the way it magically takes us back to our youth, I sure hope so! If one can look in the mirror and be happy with what they see then I guess it's a good day.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Perhaps I am naive but I find it very hard to believe the technology existed in the 50s to reprint T206s so convincingly that experts could not tell the difference. And it seems equally implausible the original printing plates existed as of that time.

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Posted By: T206Collector

"It's simply about industry standards."

Agreed.

"All my cards in SGC holders and I'll keep sending my business where I feel the guarantees are best."

Agreed.

I think SGC's standard reflect the industry standards. If 90% of pre-war collectors thought erasing pencil and soaking gunk was an impermissible alteration, then there is no way SGC would continue to slab such cards. I prefer to rely on the polls taken on Net54 last summer, and our collecting "niche" does not reflect a hardening of beliefs based on the disappointing reality of card alterations -- rather, speaking for myself, my belief system is based on common sense: trimming and adding color damage the integrity of the cardboard; saoking and erasing do not.

"As it is, with the enormous amiguity as to what is even acceptable in altering cards, clearly the field would seem open to all to have-a-go-and-make-some-dough as the keys to asylum are not even pretended to be hidden."

Again, there is ambiguity on the end of the scale with soaking and erasing, but there is no ambiguity on the other end of the scale with trimming and adding color. The polls last summer made that abundantly clear -- and, indeed, SGC's grading practices confirm that understanding.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

And again, I firmly believe that no matter the softness of the art gum eraser - the act of rubbing back and forth on paper fibres so as to remove a layer of 'something' from its surface would undeniably have impact on the integrity of that surface. Just becasue artists use them for do overs doesn't mean that the effect isn't actual, just that visually it is so minimal they can go on and have their artistic efforts be eye clean. Are there loads of unintentioal ways of impacting the surface of the card, sure. But I see it as a very obvious line one crosses when you do these things intentionally.
Further, though I never did the follow-up, I find it impossible to believe that swelling paper fibres through a good soaking has no effect on them on-goingly.
The rather facetious notion (not suggesting you have put it forward) that cards have previously been left in the rain or flooded in a basement does not take away from the simple premise:
Do you feel it is your right to knowingly and actively make alterations to the cards you buy/own?
I don't. But grind your teeth not (joke ), I won't be pushing this old barrow any further. As usual I just needed to have my say.

Regards


Daniel

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Michael, you're right. Companies like to use the words "integrity" and "honesty" when describing themselves but clearly that is just part of a marketing package.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

I've brought this up before but it bears reiterating given the debate at hand. All the auctioneers are doing business in California. California has a specific law barring alteration of cards without disclosure:

Business & Professions Code 21671.
(a) Any sports trading card that is altered or refurbished shall be accompanied by a certificate stating the exact work done to the sports trading card, the date the work was performed, the cost of that work, and the name, phone number, and address of the person who performed the work.
(b) Any person or agent thereof, who knowingly sells or trades a sports card in violation of subdivision (a), shall both:
(1) Refund to the buyer, the full amount paid for the altered or refurbished sports trading card or the full retail value of any nonmonetary consideration received in exchange for the altered or refurbished sports trading card, or both.
(2) Be liable to the buyer for a civil penalty not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000) for each violation. Each card sold represents a separate and distinct violation.

What is an alteration is covered in section 21670(a): "Altered or refurbished" means repair work which has been performed to enhance the value of the sports trading card as a collectible. This work includes, but is not limited to, filling in holes, building new corners, ironing out creases, or touching up the pictures or borders on the sports trading card.

Doesn't matter if it passes SGC or PSA; the act of altering the card results in the disclosure requirement. If Mastro is "preparing" cards for grading by doing the things of which it is accused, it has to supply the required certificate to any California buyer of the card. Well, where are the certs?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

BoxingCardMan,

In his new spirit of answering our questions and full disclosure, I am sure Doug will quickly produce the certificates--after all this is the "New" Mastronet.

Jim

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

They aren't "altered".

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

They should amend subsection b to include "grades".

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- they haven't been Mastronet for a couple of years. They are now Mastro Auctions, to be precise.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I didn't see anything in the new Mastro catalogue describing any "alterations" as defined by PSA (and Mastro) now. I feel very confident that such prep work is no longer done by Mastro as evidenced by the lack of disclosure on any auction item. After all, Doug has been so straightforward and open about all of these issues I'm certain he will continue this new course of conduct.

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Posted By: Dean H

I'm a very small player but I think disclosure is all that is being asked for. Let the buyer decide what is acceptable to them and what is not. But I realize that will not happen because some potential bidders will be turned away by what may have been done and therefore possibly lead to lower realized prices.

Dean

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike

Jeff,
Now that is funnier than Seinfeld.

[Archive]

Posted By: shane leonard

Jay, you keep insisting that Doug lay out all their business practices and how he feels about "preping" cards for grading. Do you really think he needs to explain himself to you? You aren't even a customer of his. This is like you going into McDonalds and telling the manager that you have never eaten here before, but "how do you cook these fake, chicken McNuggets?"
If this was Barry Sloates auction and I had a question for him that was absolutely ripping my gut apart, I would pick up the phone and call him. Whatever he told me would be between me and him. It is obvious Doug's stance on things as he has answered this really clearly. Maybe not in legal terms as Jeff would have it, but he has.

Barry, hope you don't mind using you in my analogy.

Shane

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Shane, Doug hardly answered very direct questions clearly. Hardly. And this has nothing to do with "legal terms." We all asked for some simple information. My question was the same as Jay's and Jim's and Peter's and... And no one was asking for a response in legalese.

I've spent 30K on Mastro auctions in the past 9 months. Do you think I deserve to know how the McNuggets are cooked?