T206 Johnson psa/dna ended early????

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Glen, after the Spence/Sal Bando video fiasco I doubt many people feel very secure about any of the verification services -- especially Spence.

Paul, you're not running for Mayor are you?

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Posted By: Dave F

I still dont think that Paul did anything wrong...the seller did, but now he has done yet another thing wrong after backing out of this handshake deal with Paul. If he is getting all this "hatemail", doesnt matter what he does at this point...his reputation is already damaged.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I haven't chimed in yet but I am reading this thread with my jaw open, and the latest developement has only caused it to drop a little lower.

All these machinations for a freaking baseball card. No wonder I stopped collecting a long time ago.

I learned a very early lesson- that despite all the warm and fuzzy feelings people have about the hobby, about the history, about the friendships...it's always has been, and always will be, about the stuff.

And while I have always tried to conduct my own business as professionally as I am able, I am still only as good as the stuff I have.....Oh Lordie. This discussion is a lulu.

Happy Holidays to all.

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Posted By: James Feagin

Just for the record Dan, I now own exactly zero T206 autographed cards. I sold out in October to focus on other projects.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...my biggest loss was that darn Nap Rucker!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Paul- don't you agree that the seller getting hate mail for selling a baseball card early is a little over the top?

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Posted By: T206Collector

But it really doesn't surprise me very much. While most of the people that I have come to know through collecting would not do such a thing, there are some that would not be able to handle losing out on this card in a mature or professional manner. I believe those are the kinds of people that wrote what they did.

At risk of painting too broad a stroke, the e-mails were not threatening or violent. They were just really pretty rude.




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Posted By: MVSNYC

interesting development...i think several lessons can be taken from what happened here...

for whatever it's worth now, i will share with everyone that i just got off the phone with a very close friend, who had a priliminary snipe of $11,000 on the card, and was logging-in to eBay to beef it up to $14,000...and he discovered that the auction had ended...needless to say, he is not happy right now.

like i first stated way up top of this thread...it should have been fought for til the end...and won fair & square.

Best-
MS

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Posted By: Joann

Wow. This just feels crappy all the way around.

Paul, I'm sorry you lost your card. You were so clearly thrilled with it, and definitely weren't bragging in my book.

It's too bad someone had to go and do that - email the seller. I think most of the conversation here was very well balanced and based on genuine beliefs. I didn't get a sense that anyone was over-the-top angry enough to interfere with the transaction. But then you never know who could be reading or maybe even not participating in the thread but decides to make trouble.

And please don't anyone take that to mean that I am referring to people that responded in this thread. John W and I just had a pretty good conversation about the whole issue - with many others also putting in good thoughts. I certainly don't want anyone to think that just because someone took a position against this auction ending early they should be suspected of having emailed the seller.

I just hope that whoever it was from here was a genuinely interested party, and not someone that just stumbled across this thread and saw an opportunity to try to hammer this seller. I'm not sure I agree that it was someone that couldn't handle losing the card. I'm more inclined to think that it's some idiot that saw a chance to play big-shot and complain to the seller without ever having the interest and/or wherewithal to compete for the card anyways.

Joann

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Posted By: T206Collector

The person I am thinking about is actually someone who posted on this thread. But it is no big deal and I would not out them here or elsewhere. He knows who he is and can deal with it on his own.

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Though I wouldn't ever endorse sending someone hate (e)mail -- not just regarding collecting but for any reason -- the seller certainly opened himself up for at the least criticism by stating so vehemently in his auction that he would not end the auction early and then doing just that.

I really don't have problems with eBay sellers ending auctions early -- although I've certainly been disappointed many times when it has happened and think it's not too bright of a decision to make. But in this case I thought the seller showed his true colors -- and his decision to back out of his deal with Paul confirms that -- by making a side deal when he assured potential buyers that he would not.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

"Even if the card went for $11K or $14K or $25K, based on what the seller is telling me, I am not sure he would have gone for it....I am not sure money was the motivating factor here."

that's the funnest thing i've heard in quite some time...

for the record, i could care less about this card (i have zero interest in signed T206's)...

edited to say that i was quoting paul's last post, but he quickly re-wrote it.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...was that the seller has never been thorougly interested in parting with this card. And for him, he was very interested in being able to share it with the collecting public. As far as I can tell, for him it was more than just about money.

Yes, when they say it's not about the money it is always about the money. But in this case, I think there are other factors at play in addition to the money.





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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"Yes, when they say it's not about the money it is always about the money. But in this case, I think there are other factors at play in addition to the money."

Yes, MORE MONEY!!!

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Posted By: barrysloate

If it really isn't about the money then he shouldn't have put it up on ebay for sale. There are other ways to share it.

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Posted By: Dan Paradis

I just read every response to this thread (I rarely ever do that).

Paul, I really am sorry you lost the card.

However, there is no doubt in my mind that the seller did not "reneg" because of the hate mail.
He realized that he could have received more money for the card. He's obviously all about the $$. PERIOD.

Dan

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Posted By: T206Collector

...to think that is not a distinct possibility. But for the time being, I am not of that opinion.

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Posted By: Fred C

I'll probably avoid this sellers auctions because he will end them after stating he wouldn't and then he reneged on the deal he made that ended the auction that he said he would never end.

I've been on the end of a deal where someone ended the auction early and the seller received a few emails about the item. Luckily the seller was a "stand-up" person and kept our deal.

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Posted By: Matt

Just something to consider - the third post in this thread suggested the seller doesn't even own the item; perhaps that would explain why he couldn't complete the transaction...
Wasn't it suggested that this card was listed for auction on ebay a year ago?

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Posted By: Brian

The process simply isn't over. More negotiations to follow. Perhaps this was his plan from the start to maximize his sale price? Whoever ends up with the card is the champ, and all others should handle their being outplayed in a mature and professional manner. Negotiating to end the auction early, the use of a website to promote the card after the sale, the use of hate mail, the word of the seller constantly breaking -- its all part of the beautiful negotiations. All tactics welcomed.

I hear the seller is a nice guy.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Paul,
I to just read thru this thread and do agree with Dan it is definitely about the Benjamins. If it was my card I would want to get the most out of it also. One point that I feel needs to be talked about is the fact that Not having the card in hand do you really feel it was wise to go on your web site and talk about a card that you really didnt own yet? I found that a little foolish. Unless you went and picked up the card and finished the deal and had the card in your hand I myself would have never talked about it until such time. Just taking it into context you had to believe there was going to be alot of people intrested in that card. (I for one am not just to let you know) and by going on your site and talking about it isnt that like rubbing salt in the wound? You had to think there was going to be some angry people didnt you? I wont discuss weather buying it off line was ethical or not because ebay "opens the door" for such pratices to happen. And it does happen all the time . But I think if the seller is such a stand up guy as you say then he should have realized that by you posting up on your site that the card was yours (so to speak) that this was going to set off a fire storm pro and con on the subject. I really feel there was a better way to handle the whole situation. But now I guess we will all see where this all shakes out if the seller does decide to relist the card. Sorry you didnt get the card but as you say if the card does mean that much to you then you really may have the chance at it to really put your money where your mouth is.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Brian, he's not nice. He's standup.

As noted, the seller has started and ended and then re-started other auctions on ebay. He seems like a greedy kook. I think Paul is lucky to have had this deal fall through.

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Posted By: Dave F

The seller is far from a "stand-up" guy...what he is however, is a smart guy. Look at all the free publicity he got here as well as on Paul's site...the next time he decides to list it, he'll have a few more watchers.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

He's so flaky though he may end up with people who won't bid.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Paul - I am sorry to hear you lost the card. Also, as someone who posted on this thread and had a snipe in on the card (albeit at an amount a lot les than $14k), I wanted to note that I did not email the seller since this thread went up. My last email communication with him was inquiring if the card was no longer available for auction and when he informed me that he had made a deal with Paul, I then moved on to other auctions.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dan, I agree with you. First, he's a flake; and second, you've got an expert on here who thinks the autograph is a fake. That's not good for business.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I know Richard Simon didn't give his opinion on the autograph, but it's a bit telling that he chimed in here with his thoughts on Spence...for those that don't know Simon is a leading autograph expert and one of only I think two that passed HBO Realsports authentication test.

But I would take Rhys Yeakley's opinion on autographs above Spence myself.

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Posted By: Glen Turner

T206 collector:
Are you still going to show a picture of the Johnson card on your website or do you only show pictures of cards that you personally own?
Do you prefer a signed T206 Rucker over a Bresnahan?

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Posted By: John

Speechless the whole thing is just a bit crazy, as for the “hate” mail etc. to me emailing to kill a deal after all is said and done (good or bad) is as bad as ending the auction in the first place IMO. I guess someone else subscribes to your playbook too Paul perhaps he’s just a bit higher in sodium content?

“When cards show up on ebay, there are no guarantees that they're going to make it to closing. No matter what the seller says. When those cards are once in a lifetime cards, you owe it to yourself to make the best run at it that you can. Otherwise, you may just miss it. And with this card, I was not prepared to miss it. Even at the risk of coming across a bit salty.”

I guess you can find a bit of irony in this? You emailed to end the deal first and then someone ended it a second time via email. With that said if what you say is true and this guy didn’t want to sell this card before…he sure won’t want to now.

Good luck and happy holidays.

John

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Posted By: T206Collector

...I'd be repeating myself and so I won't.

I will gladly show cards I don't own on my website, if I have permission from the owners. If you or anyone else have any to show that I don't have, then please send them my way. I'd be glad to show them.



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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

This is the craziest deal I've read about in a while.
Sorry to hear it fell through for you Paul.

I keep waiting for Bill Parcells name to pop in here somwhere...

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Posted By: marty quinn

i kmow this seller well, let's just say we had a deal on an item he e mailed me about, not ending an auction, but an item that i bid on and didn't meet rsv, we settled on a price, i asked to put up a buy it now,(for my protection) he said what for? someone could beat me to it! am i nuts, i said that's fine, if i get beat within 2 minutes so be it. guess what, he emailed saying he got a better price and was selling to the other guy, i could out bid him if i wanted, out bid what? there was no auction!! stand up he is not, a fasteddy he is, that's my opinion. with this amount of $$$ involved you would be crazy not to think it's something other than the almighty dollar. i bet the card is sold to another buyer. again my opinon. do you really think he cares where the card goes once it sells for thousands!!!

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Posted By: JK

Paul,

Sorry to hear that the deal fell through. Really sucks if you ask me - particularly the fact that someone on this board felt the need to intentionally try to derail your deal. IMO, the person who did it is a coward for not coming on here and acknowledging he did it and nothing more than a sore loser.

However, after reading what Marty just wrote, I think you might be better off. This seller seems like a flake and far from stand up. I wonder what would happen if, even having no intention to complete the deal, someone here were to offer the guy 20+k for the card - who thinks it would once again be sold?

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Posted By: Jeff W.

Paul, it looks like you have had a pretty busy day! Sorry to hear you lost out on the card.

Love the website though, keep it up!

Jeff W.

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Posted By: Aaron Seefeldt

Is it me or are there more and more signed T206s everyday? I thought these guyse were dead...

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Posted By: Brett

I'm sure alot of board members ask sellers to end auctions early and i'm sure some find some cards that aren't correctly labelled and don't tell the sellers. If the t206 signed Johnson goes to a seller that will keep it for years and not just buy it and then sell it a week later for make some cash, than I think thats better. I don't think these baseball players intended for people to take advantage of their autographs or cards for that matter to make alot of money on. I mean so many people just use these cards like currency and try to make a quick buck instead of collecting them because they like to collect. I don't think it was a fair thing to do because i'm sure many Johnson collectors would have wanted that card, but like I say, if its going to someone who will treasure it for years to come, I don't mind it as much. Its a real neat card and I wish i owned it ! I think i;ve just repeated myself several times but i'm tired :S

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Posted By: barrysloate

I don't know if anybody caught the irony of the seller's name (this thread has already gotten too long to check) but Paul Newman once played a character named Fast Eddie Felsen.

And it was in the movie The Hustler (and reprised in The Color of Money), and Fast Eddie hustled people out of their money. Sounds like this seller may be a Paul Newman fan.

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Posted By: Steve D

........and or a hustler.


Steve

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Posted By: Matt

Now we know this seller had another deal he mysteriously backed out of - can anyone confirm this guy even has any of these high $$ cards? Does he hae any intention of selling them?

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Posted By: Bob

I just wanted to post a note regarding some previous cards sold by "FastEddie".

It seems he sold cards that were PSA graded however when trying to verify the cards on the PSA website they were not the correct cards.

For instance he listed:

1) Rube Marquard PSA 2 - PSA label says "Portrait" but the actual card is not the Portrait variation. Also, the PSA # does not match when verified by PSA.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170174706987&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=007

http://www.psacard.com/do_verify.chtml

2) John Mcgraw PSA 2 Portrait with cap - Card in the holder is the Pointing variation. Again, the verification # does not match PSA.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170174709004&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=007

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Posted By: Steve D

While looking at his feedback I came across 1 auction where he stated he was going to end it soon w/o a sale because he heard from a knowledgable collector that he was selling the lot too cheap. He was going to get the cards graded etc. Not sure if he did in fact do what his revision stated because it appears the lot did sell and he was left feedback.


He also showed a rare Plank card in some of his auctions yet the card was not part of the auction and was the subject of many questions to the seller.


The guy is a little sleazy in the way he conducts business IMO.


Steve D

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Posted By: barrysloate

As Jackie Gleason said to Paul Newman:

"Now I know why the call you fast Eddie!"

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Posted By: Joe D.

the person who committed the most wrong in this situation:
... the board member who sent the nasty email to the seller.

why? for what purpose?



Paul - sorry you missed out on the card.
It belonged in your collection.
I have to believe that the seller got a better offer or thinks he will get a better offer.
I have sold cards to board members that I believed belonged in their collection.... and probably could have gotten more if I opened it up to others... so I feel badly that this one is not in your collection. But - when it is all said and done - these are just cards. Nothing to lose sleep over.


This seller is some piece of work.


edited a bit

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Posted By: Dan Kravitz

The signature doesn't look like others I have see, but I am no expert. You may have just saved yourself a whole lot of money if it was forged.
Excuse me while I take some t206 cards in poor condition and try to forge a signature. I will submit to PSA in Chicago this fall and see if I can get any put in holders. I'll bet I get at least one of 'em. Stay tuned!

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Posted By: John

Ok at the risk of being Wonka the grinch on Christmas what’s the deal with the overall love fest going on here?

Let’s look at the facts, Paul openly admits that he will take whatever steps necessary to obtain a card he wants or feel fits his collection. Not now but one day perhaps one of these cards in his sights will be one your bidding on and want for your collection. Then what happens when he backdoors that auction and shuts you down, still group hugs all the way around? Still feel the card belongs in his collection, is his collection more important than yours or anyone else’s for that matter?

Read the words from his mouth, now I respect the fact that he’s honest, but come on folks the writing is right there. Any of this ring a bell?


************************************************** ******
“When cards show up on ebay, there are no guarantees that they're going to make it to closing. No matter what the seller says. When those cards are once in a lifetime cards, you owe it to yourself to make the best run at it that you can. Otherwise, you may just miss it. And with this card, I was not prepared to miss it. Even at the risk of coming across a bit salty.”

“I can take the heat from competitive card collectors vying for the same card.”

“I never said I wouldn't have been outbid. On ebay, unlike most other auction formats, which give you a chance to extend the time of the auction in extended bidding, you never know what snipes are lurking in the dark. Hence my interest in ending the auction early. We'll never know if someone else was coming in higher than what I paid--but what I paid was higher than the prices discussed above.”

“In the end, I can totally appreciate why there are unhappy collectors out there. But when it comes to signed T206 cards that are not on in my collection, I will make very aggressive pushes to get them. It is just about all I collect anymore.You may call this shady business practices, but I frankly think it is what is necessary to get some tough cards these days on ebay. Is it unfortunate it has come to this? Sure. Do I lose sleep over it? No.”

************************************************** *****

Once a week or so there are a multitude of posts on here about sellers ending auctions early and how much it sucks, never once have I seen people post “well its probably for the best the person who ended it, that card most likely belonged in his or her collection.”

And this whole the card belongs in your collection stuff…give me a break when a card is up for auction it belongs with the highest bidders collection, nothing more nothing less. Can we say it would have been nice if good old’ Paul would have won the card sure, but these cards go to the highest bidder, nobody’s let me win any cards I need for my collection or cut me a break. I get them because I bid and I’m high bidder that’s the whole point of an auction.

As for ebay and the above auction the auction was running just fine, Paul went backdoor shut it down snagged the card etc, then discussed this openly (silly) and in returned got the backdoor treatment from another collector and the seller. As for the person who sabotaged Paul. I’m highly skeptical of this and would love Paul to elaborate...but I have a feeling he wont. At this point while I appreciate Paul’s honesty and candor about his not so savory card obtaining practices I don’t in any way feel sorry or happy on this situation.

The facts are simple Paul plays a no rules barred approach to ebay and getting cards he wants, so if someone else played hardball back…oh well perhaps this is a lesson that your method may not work 100%. I guess to quote a phrase that's all the rage he’s not losing any sleep over it…why are any of you???

Nothing personal Paul just calling it as I see it.


edited aserisks to try to shorten posts...

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Posted By: JimCrandell

When I need a card and its a must card, I would do everything possible to win it.

This includes first asking the seller to stop the auction and I will pay a fair price; if that doesn't work trying to get him to name his price to stop the auction; and if that doesn't work start throwing numbers at him but telling him they are only good for a certain amount of time.

I would find out what collectors/dealers that I am friendly with knew him and try to exert pressure that way.

Most likely I would have bought cards from him in the past so I will call upon an old relationship. I would also remind him of buying power I have in the future.

I would also try to find out what else he is selling and offer to buy other items he has for sale as well to clinch the sale.

This is a competitive hobby and T206 is just scratching the surface of what collectors will do to stop auctions.

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Posted By: Joe D.

on a personal level you know I like you and consider you a friend -
I just don't see eye to eye with you on this one.

---------
"Once a week or so there are a multitude of posts on here about sellers ending auctions early and how much it sucks, never once have I seen people post “well its probably for the best the person who ended it, that card most likely belonged in his or her collection.”

And this whole the card belongs in your collection stuff…give me a break when a card is up for auction it belongs with the highest bidders collection, nothing more nothing less."
---------

my response to this would be:
If anyone can be so idealistic as to suggest ending auctions early is wrong (although not against any rules)... In that same context - why can't I be just as idealistic and suggest where a card belongs?

An ended auction stinks for those interested in the card - no doubt. I dislike it when it happens. But I don't think the seller did 'wrong' by me. I think it is part of the culture of eBay.

The same culture where buyers set snipes (an outside technology - playing on eBays timing feature) to get the lowest price they can on a card (at the expense of sellers). The same culture where a miscategorized items are coveted as 'finds' by buyers.

This is not an ethical wonderland. It is eBay. Ending auctions early is just as fair as buyers snipes IMO.

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Posted By: Steve D

So if that is the case, then what is wrong with someone emailing the seller (after it has ended and presumably sold) and offering even more dough?


Steve D

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Posted By: dennis

"what is wrong with someone emailing the seller (after it has ended and presumably sold) and offering even more dough?" nothing according to some people here, as long as it belongs in your collection,it's A-OK.

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Posted By: Joe D.

if that is directed at me....

I never said there was a wrong done by anyone in the purchase process.... even the person who may have emailed and offered higher $$$ to the seller (most probable that is what happened) - that person would have done no wrong.

what I found wrong - was the mentioned - - 'nasty emails' that were sent to the seller.

sending nasty emails? thats ridiculous imo.